In the Army Her and Sebastienne have the hump because the Army's 'macho', apparently. Are they totally fucking stupid or do we need an equal opportunities touchy-feely army? Should our trained killers provide a creche and birthing pools or is alcoholism and domestic violence the tried and trusted method we should stick with?
What do you think TMO?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
What do you think, mask?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I think the army is full of undereducated, muscle-bound, bullies, most of whom are just waiting for an opportunity to shoot somebody. Your average soldier probably has the mental development of an eight-year-old and the emotional development of a two-year-old. I think most people are aware of this and secretly like it that way. I don't think anyone's surprised when new recruits are bullied to death. Or when squaddies rape and pillage the tiny mediterranean islands where they are stationed. Most people like the idea that we have a massive gang of knuckle-dragging psycopaths tucked up our sleeve for when the shit comes down. Given all of the above I think anyone who joins the army expecting it to be an organisation full of fair and decent chaps, who'll help you fold your smalls without smirking and who'll make nice comments about the way you've shined your shoes is a fucking idiot.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
Excellent!
We totally should ask this guy's opinion more often.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
I assume BM you have not been in the Army - I have and can tell you that it is not full of idiots at all. Certainly there is an element of the muscle-bound and undereducated, but I was neither - ok I haven't been to university, but I did go to college, so I would like to think of myself as fairly educated, and I was not alone - many of the people I served alongside were of similar levels of intelligence - ok I was part-time, but mixed with a lot of regs when at camp and they were not all thugs who once walked past the gruad house turned into psychotic numbskulls.
The thing is with the Army, for some people it is the only chance they have at a better life. When I did my basic, one of the Bombardiers - a really nice guy too, told us how when he was chucked out of school he couldn't read or write and had a history of juvenile crime. The army took him, educated and moulded him into an intelligent, responsible and respectful adult with a career - not many other employers would be in a position to do such a thing.
There was also the case a few years back when they started recruiting the homeless - one guy I remember reading about took it on so well that he became the star recruit of his class - he'd found a home, a salary and some purpose in his life, and probably most importantly, won back his dignity.
Yes the army has an element of fucktards who when let loose in Colchester on a friday night turn into neanderthals, and I make no apology for them, but don't paint the entire organisation with the same brush. I've met some of the most amazing people when I was in, who you could depend on with your life, yet I never even learned their names. You have to remember these people are trained in some very extreme things, get exposed to some horrific scenarios, and all to maintain our freedom and way of life, and I have so much respect for these people. There are inherent problems, partly maybe to its traditional values which are adhered to religiously, and there are certainly aspects of the military which do need to be fixed - I think they do need to look at better psychological treatement of problem recruits and of soldiers who are affected by attachments to hot zones - in fact I thing its a crying shame the MOD refuse to take responsibility for these cases, and many others, such as their denial of Gulf War Syndrome and the Porton Down Victims.
As in the case of the Leah Mates and Sebastienne Lawton, I can appreciate their positions, but it is only a very recent thing that the military is opening up more combat-orientated roles to women, and this is something that after 500 odd years of the established British Military being a bastion of male dominance, is not something that will change overnight. I respect the military in the fact that they do not necesarily give a senior job to someone over someone else because of gender or sexual orientation just to make the numbers look good - at the end of the day I don't care what colour, creed, sex or whatever you are if you are defending the homeland, just so long as you are the best at doing the job - and the army takes people of all shapes and sizes and makes them the best.But to eradicate these issues today, I would rather the army wait and train up women, let them progress through the ranks as soldiers and then deal with these issues - and to those that are there now - the pioneers working their way up, these will be respected in the future as the women who made the army what it will be - a better place for men and women - but were soldiers foremost. You can't just hire in a female director, put them in a uniform and elect them to sort it out - the army does not function that way and would break down by upsetting the apple cart. It has prided itself on the people that changed it through hard work, and it will pride itself of the new wave of female soldiers which will modernise it from a boys only club to something which will pride itself on its equality, but it will not happen overnight.
Tell you what, get a few chavs off of street corners and give them a bit of discipline and the streets of England would be a better place. It might be an antiquainted idea you may only hear from your Grandad, but its true - a lot of these kids are only the way they are because they have no foreseeable future, no education and no ambition - and who else is going to give them the oppurtunity to do that?
[ 05.04.2006, 08:06: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
Waynster says: Bring back National Service! Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Waynster does, but not for everyone - give it to those who need a kick up the arse in life.
The system they had here in Holland until recentley was that you were called up but could refuse on conscienscous grounds, and were given alternative employment in something that would help humanity or the state - a friend of mine refused military service and instead went to work for the Dutch Cancer Institute. Did a couple of years, learned a trade and he is now a top Systems Administrator. If a similar public apprenticeship system could be instigated, it could work in the UK.
Perhaps the threat of having to go in the army, would drive some of these no hopers to get an education and avoid having to do their service if this was in place?
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Excellent posts, Waynster.
It has to be said, Black Mask strikes me as the sort of liberal who devotes much energy to slagging off the army - but when the Triffids pay a visit suddenly he'll be bleating: B-but where are the army-men? Aren't they sposed to be pr-protecting us?? shortly before being whacked across the eyes by a venemous tendril and having his guts sucked up by a posse of chav carniverous plants.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Black Mask'll be bleating: B-but where are the army-men? Aren't they sposed to be pr-protecting us??
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Most people like the idea that we have a massive gang of knuckle-dragging psycopaths tucked up our sleeve for when the shit comes down.
I count myself among those 'most people'. I find it reassuring that we have slavering lunatics ready to slip the leash at a moment's notice and rape a given enemy to shreds. I'm glad they're there. Waynster's obviously getting misty-eyed about those anonymous superheroes of his youth. He's been conditioned to know his place. He was a puppy among Dobermanns. They snarled, he whimpered. He fed on the scraps they dropped. When they slept, legs kicking in dreams of foreigners torn apart, he nuzzled their balls. I don't think Waynster can be considered the most reliable witness. All soldiers are disgusting sub-human beasts, exactly what we need.
[ 05.04.2006, 09:27: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
The Dutch system was a good system, why do you think they dropped it ? I don't actually know.
Wayne’s got a point about it doing 'some people' a lot of good, however I find myself conflicted as I also agree that with Wayne having been a part of it and enjoyed it that his opinion will be forever biased in favour of the organization..
I find it hard to be objective about things like the armed forces, when I told my dad that I'd consider going in the army (It was Thatcher's Britain and there wasn't much of a future out there) he said to me, and I shall never forget:
"Son, only fools and failures end up in a uniform"
Somehow that's stuck with me, nothing else he ever said made its way into my mind, but that did, I don't know if he was right, but he did do National service and he fucking hated it, so he must have some idea of what he's talking about.
[ 05.04.2006, 09:44: Message edited by: Darryn.R ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Jesus BM, you really have got a bee up your arse about the military haven't you? So what happened? Care to explain to us your total hatred ?
As a soldier sure I followed orders - it goes with the job but identifying me as some weak person who is devoid of a mind of their own and seeks only security in having their decisions made for them I find particularly insulting. I have a mind of my own thank you very much, and I make decisions of my own accord. Like the decision I made to join up, and whilst in the army I continued to make a lot of my own decisions. I still do to this day, and I don't have to ask anyones permission to do so - where on earth you get this idea that just because you sign up for a term in the military, you are immediately lobotomized and devoid of any self-right simply staggers me. These people have, and will continue to put their lives on the line so you can moan about them, and insult them behind the security of your computer screen. Well next time someone threatens your home, go fucking hug a tree and see how much good that does you, you **** .
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Bit defensive, murderer.
P.S. They still didn't get around to teaching you to read in the 'Army', did they?
[ 05.04.2006, 09:47: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Murderer? Where the fuck do you get off?
I didn't join the army to kill sunshine, I did it to install some pride in myself, give myself some confidence and make something of myself, and I'm proud to say it did. I wish the world could live in peace, but the sad fact is the world is not that way, and until such a time the military is a necessary evil to some, and also a way for some of us who have a bit of pride and love for the country we were born in and the people that live there to do something to help maintain that. I never shot at anyone, let alone killed them so for you to accuse me of being a murderer I find particularly disgusting and very offensive to me personally. So you don't like who I am because of something I did - well that's fine, your opinion, the feelings now very mutual but do not hurl cheap insults at me for doing so. Question me by all means, after all TMO is about questioning ideas and beliefs amongst other things but if you want to go hurl cheap shot abuse then fuck off somewhere more beffitting ok?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
lol
You're not going to beat me up, are you?
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: I didn't join the army to kill sunshine
Perhaps not, but if your country had called upon you to do so, you would have been a good soldier and killed your foe. Right?
That having been said, I have no problem with anyone deciding to do a hitch in the military. It just wasn't for me. I couldn't kill.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Is it just the army or do you feel the same way about the RAF and the in the Navy ?
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
so, BM. you want a bunch of trained killers ready to do lots of the old ultraviolence and in out should we ever have to let people know what goes on?
we have them. they're called the infantry.
and you're right, if we ever have to go to war. you want a bunch of jacked up, muscled up, non thinking, killers.
thats what you're trying to say, right? that in times of war you need an army that won't stop and think of creches for their kids etc?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
The RAF and Navy are full of queers so they may as well let birds in too.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Yes, doc. Killers. I like that we have killers in the army. I think anyone who joins the army expecting anything less than machismo and testosterone is a deluded idiot.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: lol
You're not going to beat me up, are you?
No. I'm just going to wait until you can justify your petty outbursts with something resembling an intelligent answer.
I think I am in for a long wait.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: intelligent answer.
Answer what? Did you ask a question? I might have missed it in all the fury of your post, o' noble defender.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
presumably though, when you're in the army, you do what you're told, even if you strongly disagree with want you're being asked to do. I would assume it's a case of leaving behind any personal morals (beyond looking out for your fellow soliders and never questioning authority) at the door. How could you have a legitimate personal moral structure if part of it says that killing other people is okay?
Civilians have the option to question, challenge and disagree with the government over offensive military behaviour; they can realistically build a moral structure around non-aggression, yet still support genuine defensive measures if directly attacked. But as a solider you can't do that, you have to accept that you will kill because your superior tells you to. You don't make a decision, and presumably you can't just chip off when things get a bit heavy. I think that's the frightening part, the way that you are a tool of a very simple system that's sole purpose isn't to give people jobs and create a society full of decent people, but to kill without question, to act as a tool.
When somebody joins the army, do they not think of these things? That's what I can't understand... Do you hope that you never have to kill somebody, and that it's going to be mostly just having a good time with some top blokes? Or are you totally okay with killing, maybe looking forward to it? Do soldiers crave 'action'? Are there thrills in explosions, headshots, efficient killing? I would assume that war is, you know, hell. I would have thought that was kind of clear by now. Maybe not though, maybe it's not too bad as long as you're flying about in a gunship or running around the deck of a carrier.
It's not that I can't understand the principles of defense and patroitism. It's that moment when you think that you could probably kill people, no problem. Or even worse, you're willing to do it even if you don't really want to, because it's just a job. I understand the need for defensive, but I can't understand the mentality of the defenders. From what waynster is saying, it's not desperate people, with no other chance of life. The only common bond between them is that they're more okay with killing that most people.
[ 05.04.2006, 10:34: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by ralph: Perhaps not, but if your country had called upon you to do so, you would have been a good soldier and killed your foe. Right?
That having been said, I have no problem with anyone deciding to do a hitch in the military. It just wasn't for me. I couldn't kill.
I suppose I would have to, but I certainly would question any time I had to. Mind, my unit would have been more involved in support to the artillery, so probably wouldn't have had to make that trigger pulling decision directly, thankfully.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Look at her face, look at it.
She'd have been bullied and picked on if she'd joined a fucking nunnery.
Looks ike a vegan to me, or Stella McCartney - Same thing really.
[ 05.04.2006, 10:34: Message edited by: Darryn.R ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: Mind, my unit would have been more involved in support to the artillery,
Ahhh... now I get it. Catering corps. Never saw an angry man. No wonder you're so wound up.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I'm not really making any points up there. I lived in Colchester for three years, and my impression of the soliders, the ones who would probably really be on the front line, wasn't that great.
Anybody seen that advert "forward as one. as a team. on the line. together." etc, and at one point goes "for the friday nights", and shows a load of squaddies walking through a nightclub. I've seen many many times what happens when squaddies are in nightclubs, and while there may be some bonding elements for them, it's just fucking scary for everybody else. At first seeing military police around is like wtf, but I was fairly glad of them after a while.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Looks ike a vegan to me
What's with all the vegan bashing going on at TMO lately? They're people too ya know.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
i'm the first male in my family not to join the army.
my grandad fought in ww2, my dad joined as a boy soldier in the RAMC, and my brother is in the green howards.
both my dad and my brother joined because of limited options: pits or ships for my dad being in the north east in the early 60's, neither appealed. my brother being 16 and not having many qualifications and a little bit nuts was also limited.
anyway. my dad never wanted me to join up. what does that say?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
you're a disgrace.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
When did you take the decision to have a pop at me BM? When did I piss on your chips, or was this just a day when bored of your little life you decided to take an unsubstantiated opinion on me, my life and everything? At least I have tried to explain my convictions - you have just chosen to respond with glib remarks and ruin what could be a good topical discussion.
And no, I was not in the catering corps, but they do as an important job as anyone in the army.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
i'm a coward?
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I'm not really making any points up there. I lived in Colchester for three years, and my impression of the soliders, the ones who would probably really be on the front line, wasn't that great.
Whereabouts and when Benway? I lived there in 89-90, just off Military road.
I must admit some of the squaddies in the town on a Friday night were not the greatest ad for the army. I bet Saatchi and Saatchi have never had to endure a Friday night in the Castle Arms
[ 05.04.2006, 10:51: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by ralph: What's with all the vegan bashing going on at TMO lately? They're people too ya know.
It's backlash. As my friend once said 'one of the reasons I stopped becoming a vegan is because they listen to shit music' Nuff said.
I was going to chip in that my friend that was in the army was well educated, disciplined and sensible but I remembered he once kicked open the bedroom door on Uber and I, wielding a samurai sword and telled 'where's my fucking money hah hah hah'
[ 05.04.2006, 10:52: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: Whereabouts and when Benway? I lived there in 89-90, just off Military road.
I must admit some of the squaddies in the town on a Friday night were not the greatest ad for the army.
97-2000, as a student. Friday nights on the high street were a laff riot once the pubs closed.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: As my friend once said 'one of the reasons I stopped becoming a vegan is because they listen to shit music'
That friend of yours is an idiot, no?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by ralph: That friend of yours is an idiot, no?
No matter which way you cut it, he was driven back to a vegetarian diet because he would painfully endure his vegan girlfriend squeeling 'I can't believe that man is going to eat meat, on a table next to me!' If it's a lifestyle choice, then he chose not to ram his opinions onto anyone else, eat a balanced diet and shun the moral brow-beating that comes with it. So yeah, he's a fucking mong, obviously.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: When did you take the decision to have a pop at me BM?
You obviously haven't been deprogrammed. I had a pop at the army, Waynster. Not you. You chose to jump in feet-first with a super-touchy defense of the armed forces. I called you a puppy. I then called you a murderer. Now you've lost the plot completely. I'll tell you what I'm going to do Waynster, this doesn't happen very often so make the most of it, I'm going to apologise. I'm going to apologise for calling you a puppy. I also apologise for calling you a murderer. I apologise for assuming you had an ounce of intelligence or wit. You're a great advert for the army, Waynster. Sorry. I apologise. Let's hope they keep churning out geniuses just like you.
Now...
For everybody else, I'd like to restate my hyperbolic, exaggerated, metabigoted, thought-it-was-pretty-transparent-what-I-was-doing-there, manifestly obtuse, ludicrously generalised opinion that everyone in the army is a mentally sub-normal, genocidal maniac. Hopefully this little interlude hasn't fucked up the thread.
Posted by Gemini (Member # 428) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: I suppose I would have to, but I certainly would question any time I had to.
Whilst not on BMs side in this argument, I do find this sentance strange, I would have thought as the main purpose of the army appears to be to defend this country (which history has shown us usually involves killing other people), to join and then use the word "suppose" in relation to killing people seems a little naive. Also whilst not questioning would lead into the argument "I was only following orders", questioning every single time seems to make the army appear some sort of democracy which it certainly isn't.
As for Colchester I was a student there for 4 years and lived there for 5 years. 3 of those years were going out with a squaddie and working in a pub frequented by them. Whilst they weren't exactly meek lambs I did find that 9 out of 10 brawls were not started by them but usually by townies wanting to have a go. However if you challenge a squaddie you challenge his mates and therefore you are likely to come off worse. All the squaddies I talked to and knew liked their jobs too much to get in trouble with the Military Police unless provoked first (and by this I actually mean someone else throwing the first punch rather than just throwing insults.)
[ 05.04.2006, 11:17: Message edited by: Gemini ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Gemini - I guess it all really depends on the situation. Yes you are under military law and if that law dictates you accept the command of your superior. However if you are under attack, and your and your comrades lives are in danger of being extinguished you would of course retaliate with the same avengeance without thought, but if I were ordered to open fire on innocent civilians or someone unarmed and not posing a threat, any person of any intelligence would question it in their right mind (although Black Mask has already deemed me devoid of this, so I'd probably just shoot them to shit). I mean you are about to snuff someone's life - no small feat, and something you will have on your mind for the rest of your life. But then again I would also hope that the second situation is something only reserved for Hollywood and I hope not the British Army.
Like I said before, I never joined the army to kill people, and I think anyone who does is either denied entry or soon whittled out if discovered, although ultimately that is what you are trained to do. I was never "programmed" when in either, and I can only assume Black Mask's idea of this is generated from watching Full Metal Jacket, as he has still not offered a tangible reason for his opinion, but I say again most of the people I met in the Army were intelligent and opinionated enough to know the difference between carrying out an order and understanding the consequences of their actions. But then again I could never give a true answer as I was never in the position to make that decision - its a very difficult answer to call so many years after the fact.
[ 05.04.2006, 11:52: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Waynster: However if you are under attack, and your and your comrades lives are in danger of being extinguished you would of course retaliate with the same avengeance without thought, but if I were ordered to open fire on innocent civilians or someone unarmed and not posing a threat, any person of any intelligence would question it in their right mind
lol
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Not any more.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Black Mask, what is your problem? No really, I want to know. You constantly question everything I say in this thread, denounce what intelligence I have and declare me devoid of wit, and yet respond to something you find disagreeable with the idiotic and benign use of a 'LOL'. If that's what intelligence and wit really is, then quite clearly I have no clue whatsover and am not worthy to partake in debate on these boards.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
