Like King Theoden in The Two Towers, I have to ask 'How did it come to this?'. In the past week I have seen images of human beings pissing on each other, setting dogs on each other, and now a man is beheaded and filmed to be shown on the internet. What the fuck is that all about? I look outside my window and I see life going past pretty much as it did one, two, three years ago but somewhere out there the world is going insane. Is it going to get worse, because if it is, I don't even want to think what that would be like.
Posted by Vanilla Online Persona (Member # 301) on :
hasn't it always been thus ?
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
Yes, it has, and every time it looks as if we've had enough of it bang!, the human race is at it again, repeating the cycle of hate and breeding new conflicts for the future. I just wish that we could seperate all of these war-loving shit heads from everyone else and let them kill each other in the name of whatever bullshit ideology/religion is flavour of that era.
Posted by Vanilla Online Persona (Member # 301) on :
Tell me, have you let Jesus into your heart ?
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
More like cannabis into my blood stream.
Posted by Vanilla Online Persona (Member # 301) on :
Praise the lohad
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
To be honest, I've been looking for the link to see the poor bugger cop it, but I can't find it anywhere, so my whole peacenik credentials are looking a bit shaky.
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
[ 12.05.2004, 07:50: Message edited by: My Name Is Joe ]
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vanilla Online Persona: hasn't it always been thus ?
Yes, but in the olden days you'd take a picnic down to the Place de la Bastille for an afternoon of civilised turnip cropping. Now modern technology allows us to watch in our front rooms whilst eating pizza, and with no chance of getting splattered if you're sitting in the wrong place. Except by pizza sauce.
Posted by fish (Member # 22) on :
Seriously, don't watch it. I saw it at work last night. It's fucking grim. It's no "chop", it takes about a minute to carve his head off.
Posted by fish (Member # 22) on :
Watch this instead. If you have sound turn it up - especially for her comments at the end.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by fish: It's no "chop", it takes about a minute to carve his head off.
I did wonder about that. The clip they showed on the news has a guy reading a statement, then he passes the bit of paper to his mate and pulls out some sort of carving knife or something. I thought to myself, that's not going to take his head off in any sort of traditional samurai sword/executioner's axe/guillotine fashion, is it. I think that's put me off watching even more than I was put off anyway.
How many people have seen this footage? Yuck.
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
Fish is right, probably best not to watch it. I was in two minds about posting it, but I thought if people want to see it they should have the opportunity.
Posted by charrudeboi (Member # 555) on :
I watched it using the link here. In a way I'm grateful for minj giving me the opportunity to watch it but after I saw it I really did feel sick. I really wish now I had never seen it
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
dude, its video of a man getting his head chopped off and youre saying yeah, its best not to watch it but if you want the opportunity to do so, shrug. what is fucking wrong with us? his parents said they did not want the footage widely seen, and now with a click of a link people around the world are watching their son have his head removed with a carving knife like it was the trailer for the new battle royale flick or something. im sorry if im being moralistic but this is really wrong.
[ 13.05.2004, 01:18: Message edited by: discodamage ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Biblical? Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
DeeDee's right. We spend our lives avoiding this sort of horror. Condemning it. Just because it's on grainy video doesn't absolve us from complicity.
[ 13.05.2004, 01:22: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: dude, its video of a man getting his head chopped off and youre saying yeah, its best not to watch it but if you want the opportunity to do so, shrug. what is fucking wrong with us? his parents said they did not want the footage widely seen, and now with a click of a link people around the world are watching their son have his head removed with a carving knife like it was the trailer for the new battle royale flick or something. im sorry if im being moralistic but this is really wrong.
I half agree with you Disco, I was reluctant to post it, but then again...free speech. I don't know if it really applies to things like this, but I'd rather have no censorship than too much.
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
quote: young cicadas are said to taste like canned asparagus
Not necessarily a good thing.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
But isn't it more a kind of compulsion human beings have to watch and look at things they know will be horrific or disturbing? People slow down to look at car crashes on the motorway, people stand and watch fights without attempting to break it up. We know it's wrong, but we still do it.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by thestrongarm: We know it's wrong, but we still do it.
A bit like hacking off heads?
Posted by discodamage (Member # 66) on :
that excuse is used to absolve yourself of responsibility, though. its in human nature, i cant help it. you can, you know. dont watch. especially in the case of this video: dont make the active decision to watch. there are plenty of things we can and should deny about our inbuilt natures, and the desire to see people being gruesomely murdered in real life footage is one of them, in my view.
note to self: do not get involved in arguments about the morality of death as spectacle two minutes before leaving for an eleven hour split shift at work.
[ 13.05.2004, 01:45: Message edited by: discodamage ]
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
quote: A bit like hacking off heads?
It is an extreme example, but yes, there is still a compulsion to watch something as brutal and disturbing as that. However, I would say this seems only to apply to a certain kind of violence and injury.
Posted by StevieX (Member # 91) on :
I see where you are coming from Deedee. I deliberated long and hard about whether to watch the video, or not. It would be very easy to dismiss this decision as an opportunity for a bit of cheap voyeurism, but for me this is not the case. The last thing I want to see is a fellow human being reduced to so much meat. I'm still trying to answer the question of what made me watch this, and although I haven't yet answered this to my own satisfaction, it has something to do with bearing witness, I think.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
On a seperate point, I've been surprised with how little sympathy there is here in my work place for the guy. The general opinion is that whilst it is horrendous for his family and friends, the Americans shouldn't be there and this is simply blowback, as the CIA like to call it. And most of them read the daily mail, if that means anything.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Isn't the term 'U.S. citizen' now generally recognised (rightly or wrongly) to be a euphemism for ex-Special Forces mercenary, in the Iraqi context?
Posted by ally (Member # 600) on :
I've got to say, it made me cry. I'm a sensitive soul at the best of times, and I left the newsagents emptyhanded and in tears yesterday morning.
Its been said already here. Barbarity has been a feature of war since time began. What's different now is the publication of graphic images on the internet, so that the act can be witnessed several days or weeks after it happens, by people thousands of miles away. I'm rather too emotional about it to come up with an insightful or considered response. Words like "voyeurism" and "complicity" are coming to mind though. My initial response when I saw the headline was "What have you done? [Tony Blair and George Bush]"
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by ally: My initial response when I saw the headline was "What have you done? [Tony Blair and George Bush]"
Tony held the guy down while George did the sawing - both were wearing clown outfits.
Posted by scrawny (Member # 113) on :
It's a mess.
The whole thing is just one big fucking mess. There was (shock horror) a letter in Metro this morning about the cycle of revenge, and how this tit-for-tat retaliation has created a chain of atrocities that will escalate to the same level of on-going bloody pettiness (or petty bloodiness) seen in the Israel-Palestine conflict for hundreds of years. If every barbaric act generates another one in the name of revenge, where does it stop? It makes an absolute mockery of Bush and Blair's 'civilising' mission of regime change. I am so sad and angry, I might even vote conservative. Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
This is what the Bush administration have being praying for, something to show people how 'justified' their war is and how 'right' they were about the extremists. This poor sod is now a martyr to their oil war, another life lost to the barbarity of the Islamics. They'll probably name a missile after him.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
I think that's a bit unbalanced. There are plenty of things that can pinned on Bush and co without trying to dump everything, done anywhere, done by anyone onto his charge sheet. For a start: taking the supposed "motives" at face value isn't terribly wise.
It isn't as if the killers are people who would have been gentle and law-abiding but for those prison photos - the prisoner abuse scandal is just a pretext, I'd guess, for an act they would have committed anyway... they had their man sitting there, it was simply a question of the right news event coming along for them to "react" to. I imagine the killing of Sadr might well have provided a similar "trigger" - if not, they maybe would have waited until the eve of the handover of sovereignty.
It wasn't "revenge" it was a media event - and shame on you for providing them with a perfect audience... pliant and receptive to their spin on the world.
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
Shame on you Ben for suggesting that their spin on the world, no matter how vile, should be suppressed.
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
IF YOU WATCHED THAT VIDEO BY CHOICE YOU ARE SICK FUCK ABSOLUTELY AND WITH NO GET-OUT CLAUSE.
lol "it had something to do with bearing witness". Absolute bollocks. Charrudeboi, you deserve to feel sick. I hope the image haunts you.
MNIJ, you should take that link down. If people want to find it, it should be made as difficult as possible. You putting that link there is wrong. Fuck your censorious outrage argument. It's crap. This isn't a question of censorship, it's a question of morals. Plain and simple. Would you like to watch a man being killed barbarically? Yes or no? Where's the censorship? We know the film exists. We know there are no bleeped comedy swears or pixellated faces. There is no censorship issue.
Have some respect. And no, I don't care how this reads.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by scrawny: I am so sad and angry, I might even vote conservative.
This is the true horror of the situation, isn't it? We have no one to vote for.
The Tories are truly hideous scum, trying to find ways of digging at a government which is doing almost exactly what they would have done themselves, following the same policies at home and abroad. They've got clowns like Boris Johnson as MPs, bumbling around saying "Saddam was worse" and that kind of shite.
The Lib Dems, though they have a general policy of opposing a lot of things like the War in Iraq and ID cards and being the only large party with a supposedly pro-Europe stance, have a way of flailing around in the dark which doesn't endear them to anyone. They're also trying to propose a populist local income tax to replace the rates, a strange concept where you pay a higher rate of tax if you earn more, regardless of the size of your property. Next they'll want us to pay for our groceries on a sliding scale according to what we earn, I guess. It's only fair, after all.
I have no idea who to vote for this time. I want to protest against Blair and Blunkett, but I don't want to waste my vote.
As for the circle of violence, God I wish we could rewind to 12 September 2001 when the Americans had a pure moral high ground which they could have used to massive effect. Instead... REVENGE. Now, fractionally, they could have a tiny opportunity to take that high ground again - a beheaded civilian aid worker against some degraded terror suspects - just about an opportunity. But we've already had... REVENGE stated as their intention. It's too sad.
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
I'll take it down If Darryn wants me to, and I do appreciate why it would annoy people.
Posted by scrawny (Member # 113) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I think that's a bit unbalanced. There are plenty of things that can pinned on Bush and co without trying to dump everything, done anywhere, done by anyone onto his charge sheet. For a start: taking the supposed "motives" at face value isn't terribly wise.
Ben, I've been trying to respond to this, but it's going to be remedial (and short) because I can never build an argument that sounds even as remotely as convincing as yours.
Yes, it was a media event - as the capture of Hussein was a media event, as the release of of the prison photos was a media event etc. etc. Although I don't belive that it was an act of direct revenge for the mistreatment of prisoners debacle, my feeling is that it's just another atrocity committed in the aftermath of the coalition invasion (or occupation if you like). I didn't understand or support this at the time, I still think it was wrong, and I can't help feeling if they'd left well alone such 'media events' would be far fewer. And yes, yes, there's always something horrible going on to be shocked by, just not in my name, as the cliché goes.
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
Darryn wants you to. He just said. Hang on...
"Hello MNIJ, Darryn here. Be a dear and remove that grotesquery. If it helps, you could imagine the victim to be your brother or son and all the rotten.com cheeky chappies watching him die!"
There. Now make it go.
----- rotton - rotten
[ 13.05.2004, 04:09: Message edited by: 69 Comeback Elvis ]
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
Elvis, I agree with you. I watched it, and I do feel ashamed. My girlfriend is furious with me, and there was no reason for me watching other than ghoulsihness.
BUT
...nothing
[ 13.05.2004, 04:27: Message edited by: thestrongarm ]
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
Does anyone think I should keep it up?
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
I didn't say that thestrongarm. Ben said...
quote:It wasn't "revenge" it was a media event - and shame on you for providing them with a perfect audience... pliant and receptive to their spin on the world.
...which I think is subtly different from what you're asking him now. Forewarned, forearmed and all that.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by My Name Is Joe: Does anyone think I should keep it up?
It's your choice, Your Name Is Probably Not Joe But Might Be.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
Fair enough.
I was just smarting after having my bollocks chewed off by my girlfriend.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Honestly, I don't even think I could watch a video of George Bush getting his head hacked off...
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
How would people feel if the Iraqis decided to execute Sadaam and that was televised?
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
Now you're just playing devil's advocate, cheeky.
Posted by 69 Comeback Elvis (Member # 9) on :
That was aimed at BM. Although I guess it's appropriate for both. Although I would like to remove the affectionate 'cheeky' in response to thestrongarm. I don't want to be too forward.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
I got all excited then.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by thestrongarm: How would people feel if the Iraqis decided to execute Sadaam and that was televised?
That would be totally sweet!
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
They should do him with a giant cheese grater.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
They should ping him through the air and let the firing squad take shots at him like they do in clay duck shooting.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
This is all a bit Old Testament, is it not?
An eye for an eye.
A foully-murdered engineer for a debased prisoner of war.
Let's fire Saddam from a catapult and shoot him in the HEAD!
It's a shame that we haven't evolved past all of this shit. Things would be so much better if we were just disembodied consciousnesses.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
And as soon as we wipe out all the Iraqis we should start on the hippies.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
What if that video was originally of Daily Mail readers doing in a nonce and then some fecker, probably the CIA, just dubbed a load of towel head on the soundtrack.
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
I haven't watched the video.
However, there is an argument that we should be able to see things like this. They are probably happening often all over the world. I wonder if it would change anything if everyone (particularly decision makers) was made to watch it happen, rather than just think "ooh that sounds horrible" and forget about it.
I don't doubt that viewing such an atrocity would bring the reality of the situation home. But I'm also fairly sure (partly based on what has been said on this thread) that these images are likely to find a dark place to stay in one's mind which isn't healthy. This isn't Hollywood and CGI wonder - this is terrifying and real and hellishly thought-provoking.
As you can tell by the scatty nature of this post, I don't have an answer, but I wonder whether things would change if everybody saw it.
Posted by scrawny (Member # 113) on :
quote:Originally posted by H1ppychick: This is all a bit Old Testament, is it not?
An eye for an eye.
A foully-murdered engineer for a debased prisoner of war.
Let's fire Saddam from a catapult and shoot him in the HEAD!
It's a shame that we haven't evolved past all of this shit. Things would be so much better if we were just disembodied consciousnesses.
This is what Ben was objecting to - have a look on the page before.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
...the circumstances of the video release are also strange. A Reuters journalist in Dubai first named the Muntada al-Ansar al-Islami website as the source for the video – at www.al-ansar.biz. Although the site has now been shut down, Aljazeera.net had looked at the site within ninety minutes of the story breaking – and could find no such video footage. But Fox News, CNN and the BBC were all able to download the footage from the Arabic-only website and report the story within the hour.
Posted by jnhoj (Member # 286) on :
I await the fun mock neurofen advert. being as all (?) (at least channel 4 news) was parading it around slightly censored, I'm not convinced that the "uncut" version is such a huge leap, and if channel 4 think its ok to show a man about to die at 7 pm on a weekday, er... something.
Posted by jnhoj (Member # 286) on :
but then I haven't watched it , cus er, I agree with i think misc who said that they these sorts of images have a tendancy to accumlate and do bad things.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
I missed this thread somehow..
As far as the link goes I can't really say it shouldn't be here or ask for it to be removed no matter how gross the video may be it is something that has been put out there, I don't think watching it as a piece of entertainment is on but there is something almost so shocking about it that it would make any normal person have a serious think about what the fuck is going on over there...
But like all truly shocking images these days it will become nothing more than an internet meme, the new goatse if you will, and that is what is truly horrfic - It's akin to slowing down your car to look at an accident on the other side of the motorway.
IMHO - The poor bloke was already dead when the head was cut off, I've seen Zabihah (slaughtered according to Islamic Rites) butchery first hand and it doesn't look like that.
Posted by Niffer (Member # 266) on :
If the guy was already dead, out of interest, is it as bad to have watched it?
I'm not going to get started on what I think of it. Those of you who remember the Nifferautopsical meltdown will have a fair idea.
[ 13.05.2004, 08:23: Message edited by: Niffer ]
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by Niffer: If the guy was already dead, out of interest, is it as bad to have watched it?
My head's telling me it's not as bad, but I can't seem to figure out why. They're still mutilating a corpse, after all, and presumably they had previously killed him. But I think that actually witnessing the moment of death carries a great deal more emotional weight.
Posted by thestrongarm (Member # 695) on :
The Americans have the body (sans head) so surely an autopsy will reveal if he was dead prior to being decapitated, wouldn't it?
Posted by Niffer (Member # 266) on :
Yeah, I bet those terrorists ain't as hard as they make out. I bet he was dead before they did it. Pussies.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
On a more flippant note, the biggest lol for team name at the pub quiz last night was for "I'm just an average soldier who likes taking the piss". However they were beaten by "Maxine Carr now lives at" (then the quiz master reads the score- clever, huh).
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