Launched in the nick of time, in fact. I was just thinking to myself that the world needs another fawning account of football hooliganism. After all, the Football Factory was over a year ago now, and wasn't that just an "edgy" and "exciting" treat, based on a book by a fucking technology journalist and adapted by a public school turd infatuated with working class violence? (his own new film, 'The Business' promises to be a decadent story of working class gangsters acting tough and shagging birds in the sun, another feather in the proud cap of our contemporary culture).
Anyway - this latest piece contains the usual "Ahhh! But I think football hooligans are actually decent people! Ahhh!" reversal that supposedly lends such films their intrigue. Is this really true though? Are football hooligans really decent people at heart, who would "throw themselves in front of a train" for you at a moment's notice? Or are they just a bunch of louts striving to make drinking and fighting sound more noble than it actually is?
[ 24.08.2005, 07:43: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Or are they just a bunch of louts striving to make drinking and fighting sound more noble than it actually is?
Yes. Football as justification for behaving like a knobber. That's a brand new headline, innit? All you have to do to see the utter stupdity of football violence as noble is transfer it: beating up gay people is noble because it brought me and my friends together.
Football hooligans: wankers.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
I'm kind of baffled by why a film maker would want to chance their arm on territory so comprehensively mapped by Alan Clarke's unimprovable The Firm - unless they had some drastic new insight to bring to bear which, having read this woman's gormless comments, seems highly unlikely.
Martin Amis makes some interesting comments about football hooliganism in his review of Bill Buford's Among the Thugs, but even that is just yet another external (highbrow, middle class) perspective on a hermetically-sealed (tribal, working class) experience. Talking about it as characterised by "delirium, motivelessness, and an utter dedication to the ugly" sounds accurate, but it isn't really giving us much of a clue as to why these guys behave like this.
From my own perspective I always quite enjoy hearing about football hooligans and their exploits as this is clearly an area of activity in which we British are globally preeminent (like stem cell research or sudoku puzzles). Oh, unless it's Liverpool hooligans - because whatever they get up to is followed by the usual coda of bellyaching and self-pity, which kind of defeats the whole exercise, surely?
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
As an American, and a sports fan as well, I'd personally be interested in a film that explained to my why English football fans are so violent compared to American sports fans. We only burn cars and commit acts of violence after our team has won the championship, not during the regular season.
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Fucking marvellous. My club spends the best part of 15 years doing all it can to lose the evil image of the Inter City Force, the racism and violence it sadly was once more famous for than its football, and now some boxhead ex-agrro girl decides to get Hollywood to dig it all up again. And not on her doorstep either, the stupid bitch.
They couldn't even fictionalise a team like they did in ID - no they have to even name it after the famous street which my club is based - how on earth the Board agreed to this I will never know.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
there will always be a market for films that depict men bonding with other men through to use of violence. With so many men crippled by impotent rage stirred up by their nagging partners and uncaring step children and slags who won't fuck them and bosses who are out to screw them over and every other **** who wants a piece of I, man, that it's only natural. Face it, men need to beat other men/women to feel the adrenaline and testosterone that differentiates us from pant wetting six year old girls. Men also need to touch and handle other men, but do so in such a way as they might not be identified as gay. Again, brawling is able to help here.
Finally - how to deal with the feelings of resentment towards the male father figures during childhood? It's well documented that men remain enslaved to their pre-pubescent hatred , and unless they have the ability to transfer this into a physical reality, then there is a danger of thought, or even self-awareness.
Posted by OJ (Member # 752) on :
A special thank you to Ben for the tired Liverpool cliche to add to the worn-out and tedious subject of noble male violence.
Even without the added dimension of hooliganism, I find devoted football-fandom and the fetishization of it a sad waste of time. You only have to live in a town which has two teams to marvel at the waste of concentration and energy which goes into devising vitriolic insults for your rivals. [sigh]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Face it, men need to beat other men/women to feel the adrenaline and testosterone that differentiates us from pant wetting six year old girls. Men also need to touch and handle other men, but do so in such a way as they might not be identified as gay. Again, brawling is able to help here.
Finally - how to deal with the feelings of resentment towards the male father figures during childhood? It's well documented that men remain enslaved to their pre-pubescent hatred , and unless they have the ability to transfer this into a physical reality, then there is a danger of thought, or even self-awareness.
That's an interesting take on it. I wonder whether you could map the same observations on to mosh-pits at gigs, which also feature violence, men, shouting and single-sex grappling. A sort of hooliganism-lite experience.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by OJ: the worn-out and tedious subject of noble male violence. [sigh]
I'm sorry you find this topic worn out and tedious OJ. If you've got something fresh and novel you'd like to discuss instead, why not share it with the rest of us?
Posted by OJ (Member # 752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:Originally posted by OJ: the worn-out and tedious subject of noble male violence. [sigh]
I'm sorry you find this topic worn out and tedious OJ. If you've got something fresh and novel you'd like to discuss instead, why not share it with the rest of us?
I didn't mean that it was a tedious subject for a thread Thorn, I meant that it was a worn-out subject for a film. In agreement with you there I think. Sorry for lazy phrasing, I can see why you thought that.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by OJ: A special thank you to Ben for the tired Liverpool cliche to add to the worn-out and tedious subject of noble male violence.
If Liverpudlians behave in a tired and cliched way I can't help that.
quote:A vigil for Mr Shields was due to be held in Liverpool city centre on Sunday evening.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I wonder whether you could map the same observations on to mosh-pits at gigs, which also feature violence, men, shouting and single-sex grappling. A sort of hooliganism-lite experience.
I suppose the mosh pit is like a ballet about hooliganism.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben:
quote:A vigil for Mr Shields was due to be held in Liverpool city centre on Sunday evening.
Is the Catholic Cathedral closed for refurbishment at the moment then?
Posted by OJ (Member # 752) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: If Liverpudlians behave in a tired and cliched way I can't help that.
quote:A vigil for Mr Shields was due to be held in Liverpool city centre on Sunday evening.
You can repeat the exercise for bellyaching and self-pitying and score extra points if St Marks Square at the death of the Pope comes up.
Dr Benway, I think I've mentioned it on here somewhere before, but there is quite a lot of literature around what Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick calls "male homosocial" behaviour. There's a succinct definition here.
ps. Dang's ballet analogy is very quoteworthy.
[ 24.08.2005, 10:25: Message edited by: OJ ]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote: These connections frequently involve women as a "third party" as a unit of exchange, as when a father seals a connection with another man by offering a daughter in marriage to the man's son, or as a shared object of sexual attraction, as when two men are linked emotionally through their competition for a woman.
I don't think this adequately covers the topic of men butting heads, at all. I mean, I've seen plenty of films, read more than a few books that investigate the manner in which men use women as a conduit for their relationships, but I don't think it's got anything to do with either mosh-pits or football hooliganism.
Primarily, these are incredibly male environments. While there may be a few women that get involved with these events, it's the exception more tha the norm, and certainly, they're not crucial to the experience. In fact, I would even suggest that women would get in the way of such a process.
I also don't buy that it's charged with eroticism, either. I think it's probably more to do with a confrontation of hatred towards other men, and behaving in such a manner that defines you as 'a man' as opposed to, a boy, a woman, a girl etc. in engaging in activities that women/ girls/ boys wouldn't be able to appreciate or enjoy.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Oh come on - they're always holding a vigil about something. Fair enough if it's some kid getting an axe in his head, but a bit much if it's some kid putting a slab in someone else's head.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I also don't buy that it's charged with eroticism, either. I think it's probably more to do with a confrontation of hatred towards other men, and behaving in such a manner that defines you as 'a man' as opposed to, a boy, a woman, a girl etc. in engaging in activities that women/ girls/ boys wouldn't be able to appreciate or enjoy.
I think 'hatred' is a bit simplistic, it doesn't quite catch the group dynamic that's going on in terms of how the violent behaviour of the individual is fostered by the group and - if it breaks boundaries (and heads, natch) - reinforces the group's sense of unity, self and value.
Not just aggression, but victimhood and sentimentality are essential to this mix and - I reckon - make the 'hatred' elements so much more personalised and deeply felt.
There's a chapter in Michael Burleigh's history of the Third Reich where he focuses on sentimentality as being absolutely key to the Nazi worldview - how all the soppy beerhall songs of hearth and home were as fundamental a part of the ideology as breaking heads and forcing Jews to scrub pavements. It's maybe that stuff that the director of this unappealing film has lit upon as the 'loyalty', 'passion' and 'love' expressed by football thuggery.
[ 24.08.2005, 11:01: Message edited by: ben ]
Posted by OJ (Member # 752) on :
quote: I've seen plenty of films, read more than a few books that investigate the manner in which men use women as a conduit for their relationships, but I don't think it's got anything to do with either mosh-pits or football hooliganism.
Quite, no. The bit about involving a (usually transactional) relationship with a woman is the "homosocial triangle". It's not the case here but homosocial relationships don't have to involve the female third party.
This area as a whole is a feminist extension of the Freudian (Oedipal) theories which Dr. Benway mentioned. I'm not espousing it as I'm suspicious of Freudian psychology anyway.
Whether or not you see habitual (maybe even ritual?) brawling as eroticised, Benway's description of it does suggest that it's a displacement activity which stands in for the expression of a more fundamental conflict, which is why I suggested it.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Re Liverpool
That fan incident in Bulgaria thing is just odd. I can't work out if it's just yer normal locals' knee jerk reaction to assume that those savage forrens have no sort of justice system and the poor innocent English lad must have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if it is the strange situation of this other guy confessing to it that has escalated it. Although I thought it turned out that he had hurled a brick at someone else (read it in Private Eye)? Being banged up in some grim Eastern European jail for something you didn't do is a bit, you know, shit, of course.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Good old Private Eye. Their site has some great clippings of the coverage that followed (and preceded) the death of Diana: Here and here.
Worth remembering who the worst offenders were as Dianaversary 7 looms.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: Good old Private Eye. Their site has some great clippings of the coverage that followed (and preceded) the death of Diana: Here and here.
tippetty-top early morning royal-lol
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
Have you seen the fucking statue??!! I cant find a picture but Im sure some will appear soon enough. It is fucking hideous and for some reason has a large bronze seagull attached to it. I missed where it was going to stand, probably in Harrods food hall.
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abby: Have you seen the fucking statue??!!
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
Harrods will also be selling memorial keychains:
Posted by squirrelandgman (Member # 201) on :
Football hooliganism could be great. It could. 2 groups of mates dressed up in their most expensive gear having a tear up. They all want to fight, chase, run away get beaten. That is why they are there. You run a firm, great. You get run. Not so great but gives you something to ammend. Win a fight you get status. Lose a fight you get some respect. It's like Fight Club only with gangs. Also you can take it abroad. And fight neo-Nazis or Italian facists. Smart. And the police don't like it. Fucking brilliant.
Unfiortunately it is not quite like that and all too often it involves people who don't want to be involved. Milwall fans sparking a dad walking his kid back to the car. Racial abuse. Everything ugly.
Football hooliganism is a pretty decent subject for a film in the same way as, er, a war film is I would have thought. I think the problem is it is just done really shitly.
ahhh whadda I know. I always thought once the players left the pitch the fans could have a carve up on the pitch so cowards like myselff could enjoy watching. When I was at a Man City match once I got chased by a poilice horse and Liverpool fans and i don't even support City and I just wanted to go to the pub.
What was the question?
Posted by squirrelandgman (Member # 201) on :
heh, stone island obviously associated with hooliganism in google ads. Who'd have thunk it?
Posted by Gods Plumber (Member # 791) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: [QUOTE] I think it's probably more to do with a confrontation of hatred towards other men,
Ultimately yes, but I think you'll find in 'heart' it's a kinky kinda love, of men.
[ 05.10.2005, 15:41: Message edited by: Gods Plumber ]
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
Out of morbid curiosity I watched this a couple of weeks ago, and I have to say, its a laughable pile of crap and not worth bothering with to be honest. First of East London people do not talk solely in cockney rhymning slang constantly, and then constantly explain it to all and sundry. They are not called "the Major", "Bover" or "Swill". 12 year old children are not taken to Millwall versus West Ham Rucks and then get stomped to death. And most Eastenders do not despise journalists more than they do police, Millwall, Tottenham and so on.
And finally, having a last ditch all out fight should not be accompanied by some two-bit soundtrack akin to Dire Straits Brothers in Arms.
Absolute tripe.
[ 14.10.2005, 04:45: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by saltrock (Member # 622) on :
I went out with a geezah who was a committed Saints fan. We used to go to all the games together and to start off with it was fine - he was obviously on his best behaviour because I was there. But, gradually, as other areas of his life became more stressful [well, he was going out with me, so, meh] the true nature of him started to come out. He would shout abuse at his own players for not being good enough [understandable at Saints in a way] be vitriolic towards the opposition, and eventually I stopped going with him because I found him such a total embarassment. We used to get home and read the Saints forum and there would be comments like, "did you see that total tosser shouting abuse at our own boys?"
The truth of his past finally came out one night after a few too many bevvy's about his part in organised football violence. I can honestly say I've never been so shocked in my life! The lengths they will go to to arrange a fight - and most of the time the opposition were just as willing to fight. Total gang culture. I find it totally alien meself and can't understand why people would want to fight about a sport. Surely at the end of the day it's all just about having a scrap and nowt at all to do with the actual football? The guys I know who were into this did it because they like fighting, pure and simple. Fuck all to do with defending the reputation of their club.
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
When I was younger I used to go to Millwall.
Before I went all middle-class that is.
Just full of entertainment this post is. You should print it off and show it to your friends.
[ 14.10.2005, 10:57: Message edited by: Roy ]
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
hey roy, were you part of the millwall mob that went mental when derby played you in the playoffs?
Posted by saltrock (Member # 622) on :
I would just like to point out that I am not friends with these people. And I have nothing whatsoever to do with organised violence or anyone that has got anything to do with organised violence. Ithankyou.
Posted by doc d (Member # 781) on :
neither do i, i just want to know "did they turn over the radio derby car or is that just badly remembered"
Posted by Roy (Member # 705) on :
quote:Originally posted by saltrock: I would just like to point out that I am not friends with these people. And I have nothing whatsoever to do with organised violence or anyone that has got anything to do with organised violence. Ithankyou.
No, I went to the old Den on and off during 1987-1989. I was far too young to get involved in hooliganism, and after a 'friend'y against Hibs which ended with the Britannia set on fire and seeing one bloke get carved up and another have a paving slab dropped on his head, I stopped going.
Oh, I've quoted the wrong post. I is a right spaz today.
[ 14.10.2005, 11:13: Message edited by: Roy ]
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by Roy: I is a right spaz today.
