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» TMO Talk » Life » Banned Language (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Banned Language
Deep Freeze
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nobody says that ebooks have to single screen, and I'm sure that the current ebooks aren't exactly mind blowing machines, but they're first gen. No reason to write off the principle, or be able to see their future, surely? Be like writing off mp3s in 1998 because all mp3 players have a maximum capacity of 128mb.

And, they're more like tablet pcs than laptops in terms of the way they're used. I agree that there are similarities though, and in a couple of years, there will be some convergence. An ebook up until now is more a demo of the epaper screen. Now it's gone live with the addition of 3g, you'll start to see things like newspapers and live content, email etc going through it. It's obviously moving into like smartphone territory, but the differences in screen, battery life, form factor and straight up content suppliers will keep it different for a while.

[ 18.03.2009, 11:22: Message edited by: Deep Freeze ]

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Lilo
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quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
How's unemployment going, Lilo?

Brilliant. Unemployment suits me. I've lost weight and my skin is clearer!

Because I can't afford to go to the pub as often as I did when I had a job.

Also I've unlocked more achievements on Oblivion than anyone I know!

I've also started having full blown conversations with the dog and picking arguments with my family and friends for the attention, interaction and block of time it wastes.

I'm going to an employment agency on Friday. The irritatingly upbeat girl who called the other day (and woke me up at lunchtime) said she had "some projects" she thinks I could be suitable for. This is the most exciting thing to have happened since I lost my job.

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Cherry In Hove
Channel 39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilo:
Also I've unlocked more achievements on Oblivion than anyone I know!

I've got 1000/1000 and I believe Benway has more than that. Of course, we're not really people you know so you can keep that claim.
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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Deep Freeze:
nobody says that ebooks have to single screen, and I'm sure that the current ebooks aren't exactly mind blowing machines, but they're first gen.

No they're not. The first generation of ebooks arrived back in 1998. Apparently they were the future. Look at them go woo-hoo.

quote:
[QB]No reason to write off the principle, or be able to see their future, surely? Be like writing off mp3s in 1998 because all mp3 players have a maximum capacity of 128mb.
Not really. e-Books - like MP3 players - have been around since 1998. They've had the same amount of time to evolve, and they're still found to be wanting. It'd be like writing off MP3s in 2009 if they were still being dragged along without innovation or genuine success after 11 years desperately trying to convince the public that they need another gadget.
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Lilo
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry In Hove:
quote:
Originally posted by Lilo:
Also I've unlocked more achievements on Oblivion than anyone I know!

I've got 1000/1000 and I believe Benway has more than that. Of course, we're not really people you know so you can keep that claim.
Yeah well I'm not done yet. Yesterday was a good day because I became Arch Mage. Today I work on completing Fighters Guild.
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Deep Freeze
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not really. current gen ebook readers have been around for consumers since 2004, and only then, only as extremely high end devices with little functionality beyond simply displaying ebooks. When I make the comparison with mp3 players, I'm talking about their potential in the current technological climate. Mp3 players kicked off around the same time as file sharing. Other techs have advanced since 1998 that make the ebook reader a much more feasible and useful product, like for example widespread 3g networks. Hence why they're starting to appear now.

I would like to emphasise that I'm talking about the ebook reader as a concept - a fully networked, booksized reading device that uses electronic paper to display content - rather than specifically the Amazon kindle.
Perhaps you're right, that the advent of the online ebook reader advances them to 2nd gen as a tech. I just disagree that they're a pointless gadget. Perhaps they seemed it 10 years ago, when the social web was restricted to forums and email, and mobile data access was a joke.

[ 18.03.2009, 11:57: Message edited by: Deep Freeze ]

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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Deep Freeze:
ebook readers have been around for consumers since 2004,

The earliest one listed there is 1998, surely? It's listed as discontinued but just because it's not available now it doesn't mean it wasn't available then. Otherwise you may as well make a case that television was invented in the year 2000, because a particular model of TV based on earlier technology is currently unavilable.

Why did eBooks have to wait for wireless networks, when MP3s managed to find massive success more than half a decade ago? Why is that going to make all the difference to their success? Is there something about books that you only want to buy them when you're on the bus?

Why, for that matter, isn't there more widespread use of computers for reading books? Why isn't everyone already using their PC as their library, in the same way they were prepared to do with their music collection, years ago? If it's simply that they find it unpleasant to read on their computer screens, haven't ebooks already lost one of the main elements - versatility - that largely contributed to the success of MP3?

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Deep Freeze
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quote:
The earliest one listed there is 1998, surely? It's listed as discontinued but just because it's not available now it doesn't mean it wasn't available then. Otherwise you may as well make a case that television was invented in the year 2000, because a particular model of TV based on earlier technology is currently unavilable.

Why did eBooks have to wait for wireless networks, when MP3s managed to find massive success more than half a decade ago? Why is that going to make all the difference to their success? Is there something about books that you only want to buy them when you're on the bus?


Okay, sorry that I'm not making sense here. This is getting kind of embarrassing now. While I'm interested and optimistic about the technology, I'm not an expert on the things. I don't think it's important that somebody was able to get hold of a device using electronic paper ten years ago because the technology wasn't ready for consumers, in terms of price and supporting infrastructure, and in terms of how people interact with information.

Your TV metaphor is a good one though - how long was it since the first person had a TV before they became a useful product? It wasn't the case that they were invented and then became a massive success overnight. The tech needed refining to the point where it became practical and affordable. So while this dude had an ebook reader in '98, that doesn't mean it was a useful product. It clearly took another five years of development before it was decided it was a good enough product.

Plus, with something like mp3, you can instantly rip your CDs to mp3 and get going. An ebook reader with no ebooks isn't so hot, and you can't just start knocking your own out. Bit more chicken and egg than mp3s.

I remember the first ebook reader that Sony brought out, but before then, my only knowledge of epaper was as a future tech that was being refined. I hope this makes sense. Does it make sense? I agree that the tech was there, but I am suggesting it wasn't a readily available product until a few years after that appearance. Sorry if I misled you on that point. I guess I forget how explicitly you need things explaining.

As for why they'll flourish under wireless networks, simply because this allows them to become far, far more useful and versatile than before. I'm obviously not talking abut buying books on the bus - I've already stated why mobile connectivity is useful. The internet is not just a series of transactions between people and companies.

quote:

The ability to read live text - websites - as well as books, and to be able to obtain the books on the fly are what will draw the early adopters to them. Perhaps social networks, annotation and discussion could occur around the contents of the books. This would appeal to the generation that is currently going through school, who have grown up with the assumption that work and information is inherently based around sharing and interactivity.

Consider how references and communities of interest could be embedded within text books, white papers, dissertations, research etc. You could have non static and interactive diagrams, instant feeback and advanced linking / searching / contextualising of information.


sorry to quote myself, but I have already answered this question. It's not just about the physical infrastructure, but how people use the web, and how they see themselves in relation to the information that they consume. This seems like wrong place to talk about things like the semantic web etc, but you know. The mobile web is a lot more than buying things on buses. I thought that you had originally rejected my comparison with mp3s, but I'm glad it's helping. I suppose that the mp3 player solved a practical problem - carting around a huge amount of music. It's rare that people will want to cart around a huge amount of books, so they aren't solving the same problems associated with their traditional formats. An mp3 player didn't need to be live to be incredibly good at solving a problem.

I believe that being live is what will allow an ebook reader to shine because of the points I've already mentioned. I know, it's like 'but is the ability to digest live content and to socially contextualize books really a problem? One that can't be solved by a laptop?'. I think that once you start thinking about, the potential there is huge, and it doesn't so much solve a problem as begin a paradigm, like how something like friendster changed the way we view ourselves and our communities on the web. It's super early for the devices in this context, but it's why they're getting more interesting than they were in 1998.


Finally!

quote:

Why, for that matter, isn't there more widespread use of computers for reading books? Why isn't everyone already using their PC as their library, in the same way they were prepared to do with their music collection, years ago? If it's simply that they find it unpleasant to read on their computer screens, haven't ebooks already lost one of the main elements - versatility - that largely contributed to the success of MP3?

I agree with you, that it's the screens, which is why ebook readers exist, because they don't use 'computer screens' as we typically know them. They don't emit light, they don't make the eyes tired. Plus, there's something about holding a book in your hands and being able to close it, open it easily, put it on your pocket, not need to keep charging it up that make them much more appealing than laptops or tablet pcs for straight up reading. ebook readers are trying to address these problems. I don't really understand your final point though... why would ebook readers be lacking versatility?

[ 18.03.2009, 13:11: Message edited by: Deep Freeze ]

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McDirts
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You need to look at this in the context of Tin Machine Bowie to really understand the issues.
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Thorn Davis

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quote:

The ability to read live text - websites - as well as books, and to be able to obtain the books on the fly are what will draw the early adopters to them. Perhaps social networks, annotation and discussion could occur around the contents of the books. This would appeal to the generation that is currently going through school, who have grown up with the assumption that work and information is inherently based around sharing and interactivity.

Consider how references and communities of interest could be embedded within text books, white papers, dissertations, research etc. You could have non static and interactive diagrams, instant feeback and advanced linking / searching / contextualising of information.


This is like a shopping list of things that eBooks can't do, that other devices can. I thought I'd already mentioned that the academic community had criticised eBooks for not being able to do this sort of stuff.

Are you simply saying that one day a new device might be invented and that if it can do certain things that are different to the things this current device can do, then it might actually be useful?

[ 18.03.2009, 13:24: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]

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Deep Freeze
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Apologies. I forgot to say that I'm talking about the ebook reader as a concept - a fully networked, booksized reading device that uses electronic paper to display content - rather than specifically the Amazon kindle. Sorry.

Even if we were talking about the kindle, have you seen what it can do? I won't list it all out here, but actually, some of that stuff it can do, and as I said, this is very early for this technology in its current form. I see it going that way, based on how I see mobile technology and the web going in general. I should admit that this is mostly based on the conferences I go to and the research I produce...working as I do as an analyst in educational technology. I haven't sat down with one of the devices. I also haven't said that right now they're amazing devices that we should all go and get, and I'm sure this crack team of intellectuals has come to the same conclusion, but it's a developing technology that I can see huge potential for. You can't see that, and that's fine. Maybe you're right, maybe we're going in a different direction to what I think we are.

You may recall, I originally said 'I think that ebook readers could take off'. Not that they are, right now, fantastic. I've said 'could be' and 'could have' every step of the way. Christ on a bike.

[ 18.03.2009, 13:36: Message edited by: Deep Freeze ]

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Thorn Davis

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At least we can both agree that we've ruined Waynester's thread.
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Kanye West
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Speak for yourself. My unstoppable righteousness can only enhance the quality of any thread it touches, dipshit.
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Physic
Digital PIMP !
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The whole e-book reader thing is a bit of a mystery to me I must admit, at a time when laptops are getting smaller and more lightweight than ever I really can't the point in having what's basically a slightly smaller laptop which can only perform a tiny fraction of the tasks that a standard laptop can.

Regarding use as a reference tool for academics and the like, personally I have a library of several hundred IT reference books in .pdf format on my USB key, considering I can simply plus that into any machine I want, including my laptop if I'm on the go, and instantly have access to all that information, why would I want a separate device for doing basically the same thing?

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dang65
it's all the rage
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It does seem that the e-book reader is going to do for reading what the Segway did for walking.

Actually, looking at the Segway website, it's interesting that people are still apparently coming up with new uses for them. I can see the e-book reader going the same way. Could they be put in hotel rooms for example, or coffee shops, so you'd have your favourite newspapers and magazines at your fingertips, instead of a day old copy of the Daily Mail and a Hello magazine. Dentist's waiting rooms, there you go. No more Reader's Digest and National Geographic.

I dunno, I can imagine them finding some kind of niche market, but that applies to pretty much any new gadget. The one thing they absolutely cannot hope to do is to replace a paperback book. It's just not possible. Some things in this world have simply reached perfection in their existing form and cannot be improved upon.

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froopyscot
nibbled to death by an okapi
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I'm surprised airlines aren't renting the e-book readers for $20 as people board long flights, preloaded with, for example, the current NY Times Top 10 bestsellers. Would seem to be the perfect captive audience, no?

eta: Kudos to benway for the best Samuel L Jackson impression I've yet seen this week.

quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
Speak for yourself. My unstoppable righteousness can only enhance the quality of any thread it touches, dipshit.

 -

[ 19.03.2009, 00:48: Message edited by: froopyscot ]

--------------------
Give 'em .0139 fathoms and they'll take 80 chains.

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