Our 14-year-old reckons he wants to go into the Army. This is ok with us. We certainly aren't going to try and persuade him not to, if that's what he wants. Thing is though, there's Army and there's Army. Last thing we want is for him to go in as a squaddie and end up wandering around Basra hoping it's his turn to wear the body armour today.
So, we looked around and found out about Welbeck 6th Form College. The place sounds ideal. Fully sponsored by the MoD, lots of Army-related activity and a top educational record. Pupils go on to university, still Army sponsored, and then Sandhurst. One should emerge at 23 as an officer with some pretty class pedigree.
Anyway, he's got the lot going for him. He's on the right GCSE courses, is a Cadets Lance Corporal already (in less than a year), is physically big and strong. Ideal candidate.
So, I started giving him the run down on this last night, saying that as long as he kept his eye on the ball and got A-C GCSE grades and kept up with Cadets and general fitness etc then he'd be in and well on the way to an excellent career. We'd give him any help he asked for, including private tuition if he felt he needed it. No worries.
Oh God, what a scene followed. "I can't do it! I should never have thought of going into the Army. It's a stupid idea. Blah blah blah..." Most confusing, as he's really only got to carry on as he is. I'm hoping he'll snap out of it, but it's as if he's just decided to be useless. I even asked him where he sees himself in the Army - when he watches the news does he see himself patrolling round Basra, or as an officer talking to the media, or in the background fixing vehicles, or what? He didn't seem to know. No idea.
It's sad to see someone right at this crossroads where they could grab a great life without much effort, or just give up and bumble along like the rest of his family always have for generations. But I can't, and won't, force him into something he thinks he can't do. I can only encourage him and show him what's out there and what's possible.
Is this the right attitude from me do you think? Did your parents find any way to motivate you, or were the successful ones amongst you (Carter and, er, anyone else?) naturally confident and academically capable and focussed anyway? Was anyone here really failing and lost in their teens and then suddenly woke up and got on with it? How did that happen?
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posted
Hello Dang, it sounds like you are exhibiting great parenting skills in researching stuff and being supportive but not pushy.
When I was 16 I nearly went to this college in Wiltshire to do a horsy course with A-levels on the side. My parents didn't really want me to do it, as "there's no money in horses! You'd have to clean up a lot of poo before you met a rich man!" but they drove me to the interview and were prepared to pay quite a lot of money and let me leave home rather young. This was good parenting.
14 is pretty young to commit yourself to a Definite Career Path. I would be more worried if he was saying things like THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO BE! NOTHING WILL STAND IN MY WAY! as he would only be setting himself up for disappointment.
When does he have to apply? What happens if he changes his mind at any stage? I'd research the backup options and assure him that he doesn't have to sign his life away in a contract of blood (unless this is what the army is actually like).
I am saddened that you did not include my name on the short list of TMO career successfuls.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: Is this the right attitude from me do you think?
I think you're spot on. You've done all the leg work, you've been interested, enthusiastic, realistic and supportive, but you haven't pushed it. Until I was about nineteen (when it finally became painfully and transparently obvious to them that I had come completely off the rails) my parents never stopped fucking badgering me about 'my future'. Was I going to be a surgeon or a High Court judge? I had to decide NOW! I started off not giving much of a fuck and ended up a gibbering, paranoid, manipulative, cackling, curly-haired Morlock. I straightened out though. When my kids were born.
posted
Probably when a 14 year old thinks "yeah! I’m gonna go in the army!" he isn't thinking about A levels and Uni etc being an integral part of this, so he may have just freaked at the unexpected academic precursors to running around on Dartmoor with gunz.
Has he voiced any previous opinions on education post 16?
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: Is this the right attitude from me do you think? Did your parents find any way to motivate you, or were the successful ones amongst you (Carter and, er, anyone else?) naturally confident and academically capable and focussed anyway? Was anyone here really failing and lost in their teens and then suddenly woke up and got on with it? How did that happen?
Turn around and tell him that there is no way on earth he is allowed to join the army and that it will be over your dead body him going Welbeck 6th Form College. That should motivate him.
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posted
I was the model pupil until I reached 14. I studied hard, and was easily keeping up with the top set in every subject. But then some hormone kicked in and said "You can't be bothered to do all that work". My social life became more and more important, and work got left behind. I did ok with my GCSEs, but my A-Level results were very disappointing. It wasn't until my final year of uni that I picked up the ball again.
My mind was all over the place when I was 14. I couldn't decide if I wanted to be a car designer or a rock star. Or maybe a product designer. "Yeah, that'll do for a degree.". I had a fair bit of ability, but no focus and no motivation. I still suffer from motivational problems and I know that when I'm on my death bed, there'd be a huge list marked "Things I Wish I'd Done" - if I could be bothered to write one.
A decision with so much potential effect on your future is very diffuclt to comprehend at that age. I guess all you can do is show your son some of the possible paths, and encourage him to make his own choice.
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I think you've done all the right things dang, but it's obviously been too much for him somehow. Do you think that maybe the "reality" of it was a bit much for him; it's a nice idea being in the army but 'ckin hell my dads been and found out about colleges and exam results and everything and I was only saying it sounded alright?
I'd let it go for now probably, just carry on supporting him at school and with cadets etc without mentioning the army unless he does.
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posted
Or you could smear his face with mud, banish him from the house, give him a tent and say: "This is what it's gonna be like from now on, son."Posts: 14015
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posted
Splendid comments from all. Sorry VP, how could I have left you off the list [*punches self in head*]
Gemini, I did actually watch this happen last night. The realisation that we were encouraging him and offering help switching to automatic "must disobey parents" command. I may have to turn on some very sneaky psychology in the manner you suggest.
Abby, also spot on perceptive as he seemed to suddenly see a future of unexpected swotting. I tried to emphasise that Welbeck is almost the Army anyway, blah blah blah. Hopefully he'll think on and come round to it.
VP, application and selection interviews won't be for another couple of years (i.e. GCSE year), but because it's a specialist college I want him to understand what they'll be expecting and basically how he can improve his chances without a last minute panic.
MF, I too visualise a long list of missed opportunities, and every parent must do surely. Children give you this fantasy second-chance where they can do what you patently failed to do. But it doesn't work like that and the cycle continues. Having realised this, I'll just do my duty and encourage him and leave it at that.
He's out the door on his eighteenth birthday though
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posted
It's such a fine line between encouragement and pushiness. Even too much parental enthusiasm can leave a young 'un with a weight of responsibility to live up to expectations.
My parents were ridiculously pushy. When it was time to choose what O levels to do - a really quite minor decision - they took me to an educational psychologist to see where my aptitudes lay. I did my O level maths a year early, and my class then went on to to AO level, which was utterly impossible. They sent me to a private maths tutor. FFS - IT DIDN'T MATTER. Leave me alone.
Like BM, I had a constant feeling of having a spotlight on me, and a paralysing weight of expectation. All that effort was counter-productive - I have never achieved my potential, and feel a constant disappointment to them. I'm only now realising that I can never live up to what I imagine their expectations to be.
In your son's case, maybe he had a passing fancy of joining the army, but has interpreted your finding out of all the info as the beginning of pushing down a long road he's not even sure he wants to go down.
posted
Support is good but possibly the mass influx of information was overwhelming. Just give him a bit of time to settle and adjust to the idea, secure in the knowledge that at least now he knows all the requirements...
Parental help is all well and good (I wish I'd paid more heed to mine) but teenagers often have an 'it's my life and I'm perfectly equipped to make all the decisions by myself' attitude (em, perhaps this was just my friends and I). As I said above, you've furnished him with all the relevant information but now it's up to him what he does with it.
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posted
I dunno, if my parents had come to me with a suggestion of what I'd be doing for the next nine years of my life at 14, I think it might have freaked me out a bit.
Obviously you're just showing your support and interest, which as far as I can see is all you can do, but I'd have been a bit thrown all the same. Also he's a bloody 14 year old, i.e. confused, full of hormones, and everyone is bothering him about what he wants to do with his life.
WHYDON'TYOUJUSTLEAVEMEABLOODYLONE! GOD!
When I was a teenager I had no fucking clue what I wanted to do apart from in the vaguest of terms i.e. I wanted to do something creative, that involved my strong drawing/painting skills, and that was collaborative, and that paid alright. So I used to tell my parents I wanted to be an architect. Not that I had any clue what that actually involved, and as soon as realised it meant using alot of funny rulers and 8 years of college I changed my mind about it sharpish. But for years that's what I said.
Also dang, you seem to have done ok for yourself just "bumbling along", I'd say don't stress it, and continue to be supportive.
[ 15.09.2004, 06:33: Message edited by: Boy Racer ]
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posted
Just because he's changed his mind on the army thing doesn't mean he's "just decided to be useless" surely ? He is only 14.
I had absolutely no guidance or motivation other than get a job, any job. Both of my parents were very working class types, little or no formal education. I had an older sister who was a civil servant, ( a job always regarded with awe and reverence in Ireland ) so that was held up to me as some kind of shining example. I left school in the early '80s which in Ireland was in the troughs of economic depression so getting any kind of job one step above McDonalds was an achievement.
I did manage to land a job in the Civil Service and have remained there since. There's times when I hate it, but being honest I couldn't picture myself doing anything else. The only other job I'd relly like is being a musician, which is unlikely to happen ( not for want of trying on my part though ).
I'd be disappointed if any spawn of mine wanted to join the Army, but being a loony lefty liberal type I'd probably have brainwashed them against it from day one anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by The Preacher: Just because he's changed his mind on the army thing doesn't mean he's "just decided to be useless" surely ? He is only 14.
There was a genuine feeling last night that he'd listened to me and simply said, "I can't do that," as opposed to, "How might I go about that?" He's not useless. No one's useless, but it's the potential thing that's frustrating isn't it, for all of us. I've done ok by bumbling along, yeah, but that's just the more frustrating. If I've done ok by bumbling along then what could I have done with a bit of planning and discipline? Bugger.
All fair comments from those that suggest it was overload and confusion. I won't broach it again anyway. I've done the duty of letting him know what the deal is, and it's up to him what he does with that information.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: There was a genuine feeling last night that he'd listened to me and simply said, "I can't do that," as opposed to, "How might I go about that?"
I've just spent a few months with a bunch of 13-15 year old boys and if any of them had ever said anything like the second comment, I'd have keeled over.
This is not to rubbish teenagers, just to reassure you that his reaction seems quite "normal".
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There's plenty of time for him yet Dang. I know loads of fellow civil servants who only decided what they wanted to do with themselves after they'd spent a few years tooling around different offices. One left to become a teacher ( at the age of FORTY !! ), another is now a social worker, and another is leaving THIS VERY WEEK to go into nurse training.
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My parents (well, my mother anyway) told me I was useless, that I'd never amount to anything, that all I though was true was a lie and that all I believed in was bullshit.
They told me that daily from the age of about 13 onwards, no matter what I did or what I said she told me I was a 'waste of space' and that unless I did exactly what they told me I'd just be a 'lifelong fuckup' was the term I think she used..
Would I have done better if I'd been encouraged ? Maybe, I suppose I'll never know.
Does it hurt ? Yes, yes it does.
What do I think you should do ?
quote:I can only encourage him and show him what's out there and what's possible.
posted
It's a terrifying prospect at 14 to decide what you're going to do with the rest of your life. How can you possibly know? I also remember feeling as if the decision was binding, for ever, and I'd have to stick to whatever I said for the rest of my life. I think maybe we should impress upon the yoof that they can change their minds once they're grown up.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: VP, application and selection interviews won't be for another couple of years (i.e. GCSE year), but because it's a specialist college I want him to understand what they'll be expecting and basically how he can improve his chances without a last minute panic.
It seems then that if he’s doing well, you just want him to continue that. There are ways to encourage success in the now without always linking it to his future goals. Thinking shorter term might be beneficial: encourage him to do well on this or that exam (maybe with reward, praise, etc.), and deal with drawing the connections to his life goals later.
If he does well in whatever he likes and chooses now (as well as the standard subjects), in a few years, the proper place for him will emerge.
I always wished my parents encouraged me more. They were both gym teachers and I was a precocious overachiever. I was horribly upset that classmates who managed one mediocre grade were given a new car and I was taken out for an ice cream if I pulled straight A’s. As bad as it sounds, I’ve determined that with my children, I won’t be above rewarding them.
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quote:Originally posted by rooster: I was horribly upset that classmates who managed one mediocre grade were given a new car and I was taken out for an ice cream if I pulled straight A’s.
Rooster, did you go to school in an episode of The O.C.?
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Edit to say: Gosh, I sound horribly selfish – it wasn’t like I insisted they should have bought me a car, I just felt the entire thing was unfair (do well all your life you get crap, be a fuckup and shine for one brief moment and get a parade) and would have liked them to maybe push a little bit more.
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Did your parents find any way to motivate you, or were the successful ones amongst you (Carter and, er, anyone else?) naturally confident and academically capable and focussed anyway?
Wahey. Namechecked as a success. Hmm.
I am naturally confident and academically capable. This does mean that I've been able to get an awfully long way without being focussed at all.
Up till recently, it's all been a bit of a drift.
"Do you want to do medicine or law, or go into the City?"
"Er don't know really"
"Well do these GCSEs to keep your options open"
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"Medicine sounds OK"
"Well do these A-levels and apply to med school"
----------------
"I appear to have a medical degree"
"Good-oh. Here are your first two house jobs, then a stint in A+E".
And interestingly, none of those conversations have been with my parents - they were just there, supplying advice and help if asked. The only times they went off on their own and organised/sorted out stuff for me without me knowing, I felt pressured and irritable without knowing quite why.
I suppose what I'm saying is that he now knows you're supportive of his ideas and are happy to help. This is goodd.
Also - he doesn't have to go to Welbeck to get in to the army, of course. You can always reassure him that even if he doesn't want to go there he can always approach it from Uni with a student commission or whatever they're called. He may be keener on the reality when he's thought about it some more, or he may have decided to be a ballet dancer by then. Qui sait, innit?
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H1ppychick
We all prisoners, chickee-baby. We all locked in.
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Depends on your measure of success. If it's filthy lucre, I suspect 2@ rates fairly high. If it's fame or professional renown outside your own social or immediate work circle, I suspect that you and Londie rate fairly well (albeit in different circles).
If it's raising the next generation in a balanced and loving way, dang65/Darryn/Sidney/sabian/saltrock/M&G seem to lead the flock.
If it's doing something which actually is more altruistic and helps others who are less fortunate, louche probably wins, or Meg maybe.
If it's saving lives, then Carter.
It's all purely subjective. The only constant is that I don't top the league at any of it
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H1ppychick
We all prisoners, chickee-baby. We all locked in.
posted
BTW please no hurt posts saying "but I have kids too!" or "but I saved a granny on a pedestrian crossing yesterday!". I'm tired and I still have to drive to Devon tonight.
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quote:Originally posted by H1ppychick: BTW please no hurt posts saying "but I have kids too!" or "but I saved a granny on a pedestrian crossing yesterday!". I'm tired and I still have to drive to Devon tonight.
But....!
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:Originally posted by H1ppychick: If it's doing something which actually is more altruistic and helps others who are less fortunate, louche probably wins, or Meg maybe.
I'm a little uncomfortable with the 'altruistic' thing. I do my job (and the jobs that preceeded it and the job I hope will succeed it) with a certain amount of mealy-mouthed smug satisfaction because (and there is no way to phrase this that does not make me sound like a twat) I am doing something I really and passionately believe in.
However, I am also doing the jobs I do because I get paid for them, and quite well at that. I am also satisfying personal ambitions and getting a distinct amount of personal satisfaction from my own competance. 'Altruistic' does form a sizeable part of my motivation but to me being truly altruistic involves doing something really fucking beneficial at personal cost or at least, for little appreciable personal gain. Maybe I am misinterpreting the word, but there's something about it which implies some form of difficult self-sacrifice. To me, altruistic would be more apposite if applied to a youth worker on minumum wage spending each and every night on the cut banks in Rochdale talking to kids. Or my Mum, who, thanks to the untimely death of her husband, doesn't have to work in the NHS for an utter pittance I'd be ashamed to pay to an unqualified 16 year old apprentice, but regularly does stuff over and above the call of duty to ensure patient safety.
Thank you Hippy for the accolade, but, as above, I'm not spectacularly happy to let it sit there, unremarked.
posted
Ah, isn't hindsight just the most wonderful thing.
Looking back now, I wish that my parents had pushed me more. Or at all come to that.
I left school at 16 with 8 O levels, decided that I didn't want to go to college and spent the next, ooh far too many years doing nothing very concrete. I really wish now that I had gone to college and university and done something concrete. As it happens, things haven't turned out too bad, but I know I could have done so much more. [Which is why at the age of 33 I am embarking on an OU English degree].
I think that at 14 it's unlikely that you will know what you want to do for the rest of your life. I also think though that you have done exactly the right thing with your son in researching the possibilities for him and being supportive of his [possible] choice.
I will say about the army though - my brother in law is out in Iraq at the moment. He has been in the army since he was 17 years old and has only 3 years left until he completes his full service. He says that the army has changed massively over the time he has been there and if he knows of anyone now who was thinking of joining up, he would heavily dissuade them. All the things you read and hear about the lack of equipment, left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing etc etc is not only true, but greatly played down. He even bought his own boots to go out to Iraq as the stuff they were supplying wouldn't have lasted a week. There are all sorts of equipment shortages that we don't get to hear about because it is covered up.
*Edited because I have had a very long day at work and seem unable to type coherently.
quote:Originally posted by Carter: You're sort of a doctor too!
I don't really know much about medicine, being a doctor of philosophy myself and above such things, but I hear it's a very worthy pursuit! People will always get sore throats.
Anyway with regard to myself, I'd say shaping the minds of tomorrow, even if they are the minds of international privilege and even if I'm shaping them with my own prejudices and received ideas, is pretty altruistic. I think encouraging critical thinking, learning and argument is usually socially admirable, especially as nobody in higher education earns as much as they could get if they'd devoted their time and talents to another field.
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