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» TMO Talk » Media Junkies » Helen of Troy? Sharon of West Croydon more like. (Page 0)

 
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Author Topic: Helen of Troy? Sharon of West Croydon more like.
mart
Wearing nothing but a smile
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I also think I should shoot myself in the head, with a gun.
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Raz
Karma Police
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This

quote:
Originally posted by ben:
[QUOTE]

MENIPPUS: But still show me Helen; for I should not recognize her.

HERMES: This is the skull of Helen.

MENIPPUS: Was it for this then that the thousand ships were launched from all of Greece, and so many Greeks and non-Greeks fell and so many cities were destroyed?

HERMES: But Menippus, you did not see the woman when she was alive; you too would have said it worthwhile "to suffer sorrows so much time for such a woman." [Iliad 3. 157.] For if one looks at flowers when they are dry and have lost their hues, obviously they will seem ugly; but when they are in bloom and have their color they are most beautiful.

basically =

quote:
MENIPPUS: Show me the skull of Helen, because they said she was beautiful.

HERMES: This is it: here. In my hand.

MENIPPUS:
That's Helen? I...I don't understand. She = ming. And they had loads of wars over her? What the fuck were they thinking?

HERMES: No no. See, this is her skull. When she was alive she would have had skin and lips and eyes and ting. That would have made her less ming.

MENIPPUS: Oh! Ohhhh. OK. I'm with you now.

And they call this a 'classic'?
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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by Raz:
And they call this a 'classic'?

Talking of which, did anyone see Tracy Emin on the Frost show at the weekend? She went off on one about the British Public all having a good laugh at her shite art getting burned in that warehouse fire. Knowing it's really wound her up that no one gives a fuck about her stupid tent is an excellent bonus.

She also tried to claim that it's only the stupid British Public that don't get it and that she's universally loved in Australia, America and Old Europe. Which seemed somewhat unlikely. She may have been thinking of Idi Amin, perhaps.

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Vogon Poetess

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Razzle, ben's point was that it is very cool and clever to quote classickle stuff.

Poor thicko raz!

You can tell Sharon Eminem that I don't much care about Art that I could probably do myself, if I could be arsed.

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by Boy Racer:
I was kinda extrapolating on your comments about "the mores" of the time Ben, with reference to the fact that homosexuality was pretty much universally practiced in the states of Ancient Greece, eventually being made compulsory in Sparta.

Universally? This being the case, how comes whenever Zeus transformed himself into an animal or bird it was always in order to rape some gal rather than some dude?

What is the evidence for the extent to which gay relationships and sexual activity were condoned/practiced/encouraged/enforced? Not having a go, but this has always struck me as one of these "everyone knows" factoids that never seems to come with an awful lot of back-up. As it were.

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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
Talking of which, did anyone see Tracy Emin on the Frost show at the weekend? She went off on one about the British Public all having a good laugh at her shite art getting burned in that warehouse fire. Knowing it's really wound her up that no one gives a fuck about her stupid tent is an excellent bonus.

I saw this and Emin's defence of modern art/artists against a thick as fucking pigshit British public was touching and - to this viewer at least! - convincing.

A useful guide for future reference:

Emin & all her doings = "gr8"

The shit-wit opinions and cock-sucky Linda Barker/Jack Vettriano-subsidising "taste" of ye Grat Braddish Pubic = laughably wrong-headed, defensive and shallow - no doubt stemming from an ingrained inferiority complex/morbid fear that our meat & two veg intellectual upbringing has left us ill-equipped to voice any opinions that might not be laughed out of court by clever Continentals and metropolitan eggheads and therefore let's take refuge in shit-flinging, shall we? That's easy and safe and there are so many people doing it there's not the remotest chance that anyone will be able to single out our individual wretchedness amid that of the generality. Yay for the burning of art we don't understand! Yay for Margaret Thatcher and pictures that look like the things they're supposed to be of!

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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
You can tell Sharon Eminem that I don't much care about Art that I could probably do myself, if I could be arsed.

I've never heard anyone slag off Tracey Emin without sounding really dense. I'm sure it could be done, but I've never seen it done. Tracey Emin = excellent.
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dang65
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The thing with the Emin-ent art thing is that it was all done a hundred years ago when it was actually weird and rebellious and shocking. It was proper-mad Dada, found urinals, films of ants coming out of holes in people's hands in black and white. Genuinely overturning normality, like The Beatles overturned murky pop music. If a band was to come along now and go Woooooo, I wanna hold your hand then the Great British Public would go, Yeah, woooo, fuck off. Having some dullard like Tracy Emin trying to tell us that her old bed is art is along the same lines, only it's worse because we don't get to go, Woooo even.
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Boy Racer
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Thank you Thorn.

In reply to Ben.
Perhaps my choice of language was poor.
I did not mean to say that everyone was homosexual in Ancient Greece, but it was my understanding that homosexuality was exceptable practice at this time. However the extent of this is still a matter for conjecture, and would regardless have varied according to the time period or location within Greece.


[URL=http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/classicalera.html#Nikos Vrissimtzis]This site[/URL] gives some sources that cover the subject of Ancient Greek sexuality in conflicting ways.

[ 01.06.2004, 09:50: Message edited by: Boy Racer ]

--------------------
Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...

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Physic
Digital PIMP !
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
A useful guide for future reference:

Emin & all her doings = "gr8"

The shit-wit opinions and cock-sucky Linda Barker/Jack Vettriano-subsidising "taste" of ye Grat Braddish Pubic = laughably wrong-headed

Personally when I heard about the fire and the fact that Emin's work was destroyed, I didn't snigger, but I did mentally 'shrug' and read the next article, not because I don't think it matters, simply that it doesn't matter [i]to me[i], in much the same way that if football ceased to exist tomorrow, I'd be devastated, but many other people would probably consider it barely worth a second glance, all about personal priorities isn't it? The sniggering attitude is perhaps a little harsh, given the effort which no doubt went into some of the work, but to some degree I think its entirely understandable given the arrogance of much of the art establishment in automatically ascribing any failure to properly fawn over the work of artists such as Emin or Hirst to 'ignorance', rather than allowing for the possibility that it might just not appeal to some peoples'; sense of what constitutes a work of art, which is, after all, a very individual thing surely? Personally I think it's this tendency to simply dismiss such views rather than to encourage diversity of opinion which discourages many people from taking a greater interest. I mean I enjoy plenty of art, off the wall work such as that of Chagall, Dali and Picasso's cubist works have always held a particular fascination for me, partly because of their imaginative and unorthodox approach, so it's hardly as though I ascribe to the stereotypical idea that a 'art should be a proper picture that looks like what it's meant to be', and yet I can't say that work such as Emin's holds any real interest for me at all, not because I'm ignorant, simply because it isn't to my tastes. Granted I might be in the minority, maybe as you seem to suggest most people who dismiss her work do so from a position of ignorance, but personally I not only find that hard to believe, I also think it's a cop out for artists who can't handle criticism, despite working in an industry which is entirely based on opinion and personal interpretation.

[ 01.06.2004, 10:08: Message edited by: Physic ]

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Vogon Poetess

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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I've never heard anyone slag off Tracey Emin without sounding really dense. I'm sure it could be done, but I've never seen it done. Tracey Emin = excellent.

To be fair, I do find her stuff quite interesting.

However, I like pieces of Art to look like they were difficult to do ie cutting a sheep precisely in half and suspending it in chemicals is a bit fiddly. Anything that I reckon I could do myself, armed only with a C in GCSE Art, I am not impressed much by.

My personal loose definition of ART =

1. looks pretty
2. is meaningful and makes me "think"
3. required skill and patience in its construction

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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Abby
Slave Girl of Gor
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I think people would be in less of a rush to slag of Tracy Emin's work if she wasn't so rude and obnoxious.

There is no call for rudeness! [Mad]

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Boy Racer
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Oh fuck off!

--------------------
Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...

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Vogon Poetess

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Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!

[ 01.06.2004, 10:13: Message edited by: Vogon Poetess ]

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
The thing with the Emin-ent art thing is that it was all done a hundred years ago when it was actually weird and rebellious and shocking. It was proper-mad Dada, found urinals, films of ants coming out of holes in people's hands in black and white.

This fetishisation of a period or milieu as being particularly privileged in terms of producing culture that was somehow more genuine, authentic, original, or shocking (any of these words ought to put us immediately our guard) is nothing but a parlour game, and one particularly popular among the readers of Q Magazine for adults, I believe.

Duchamp's urinal has had a much busier afterlife as a stick to beat YBAs with than it ever did as an icon in its own right -- something I'm sure would sadden or perplex any artist worth his salt.

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squirrelandgman
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!

Yeah. Is Ian Brown good in it?
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dang65
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
This fetishisation of a period or milieu as being particularly privileged in terms of producing culture that was somehow more genuine, authentic, original, or shocking is nothing but a parlour game...

The tiresome repetition is the problem I have with Tracy Emin and her like. It's been done, ages ago, it's all there in the museums, now go and do something different. Lots of artists do, and lots of artists don't, but it's when something is first done that it has it's biggest impact. That's not fetishisation, it's just chronological effect - done first, most remembered; done again and again, tiresome. Like climbing Everest, swimming the Channel, flying the Atlantic blah blah blah.

All eras have their own genuine, authentic, original or shocking cultural icons - Tracy Emin isn't ours.

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69 Comeback Elvis
Skank Ho
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quote:
squirrelandgman:
Is Ian Brown good in it?

Of course he is. Bloody stupid question. Man's a genius.
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Thorn Davis

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Dang the stuff you quoted - ants crawling out of someones hand - or whatever doesn't really seem to have much to do with Tracy Emin. You keep mentioning the word 'shocking', but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Her best stuff - like the unmade bed - isn't really shocking, or trying to shock. It's just taking something apparently mundane and showing how we leave our individual stamp on things, all the time. It's not about visceral kicks to the gut, it's about "look how much you can infer about a life from something so inconspicuous'. It doesn't - to my mind - fall under the category of found art, either. It's not really any unmade bed that she just sticks in a museum, but rather a sculpture of a bed that tells us a great deal about its owner. That, in particular, is what I find exciting and interesting and even up lifting about it.

Elsewhere, something like CV isn't really about shocking you, it uses the same trick of displaying the detritus of someone's life whilst overlaid with a chronological narrative of someone's life. So rather than just being footage of her growing up, getting older, whatever, with the voiceover, it's instead her voiceover taking it through her life and the images are kind of a still life shot of a (her?) apartment. It's like her life, everything she's done is just stamped all over the place. As I said, I really, genuinely don't see that any of that's reflected in the pieces you described, so I can't see how you can dismiss Emin's work as "been done before", least of all by citing a bunch of things that show how far removed she is from previous movements. It's definitely more than just shocking. In fact, I don't think it's really trying to be shocking in many places.

Finally, I don't think either of those pieces could just be done by anyone with GCSE level art. Especially the skill and perception involved in putting together something like CV. It's not a question of 'anyone can do it'. It's artful and it's gr9.

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Raz
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
You are wrang, Boy Racer. As any fule kno "gay versions" of things tend to be a lot more gruelling and didactic than one might at first hope - though I definitely think existing gayness should have been retained in Troy. Particularly welcome would have been a scene in which Brad Pitt had an encounter with Patroclus in the latrines before necking a load of pills and dancing for eight hours - all the while sending bitchy texts to his ex and comparing his abs with those of the redhead in the pink crop top and flashing devil horns.

What is the evidence for the extent to which gay relationships and sexual activity were condoned/practiced/encouraged/enforced? Not having a go, but this has always struck me as one of these "everyone knows" factoids that never seems to come with an awful lot of back-up. As it were.

BEN I think Kovacs has stolen your password.

In The Iliad doesn't Achilles kill Eric Bana because Eric Bana killed his boy? I bet that wasn't in the film. Brad Pitt doesn't do bum-ups. Except with his man-wife.

O you're all talking about Tracey Emin now.

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Astromariner
Going the right way for a smacked bottom
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Tracy Emin endeared herself to me instantly when I saw a clip of her appearing on some debate about modern art the evening she won the Turner Prize that time. She was absolutely shitfaced: alternately muttering to herself and shouting indecipherably, calling the other panel members a "bunch of wankers", apologising to her mum, and lurching off the stage to everyone's palpable relief, saying that she'd much rather be with her friends.

Also she did this good programme about The Scream once, and I'm not embarrassed to say that until she explained that the scream was coming from the landscape and the person was trying to block out the sound, it had never occured to me to look at the painting in that way. So: making a drunken fool of herself, and patiently explaining art to philistines like me = double bonus points for Emin.

[ 01.06.2004, 11:05: Message edited by: Astromariner ]

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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
The tiresome repetition is the problem I have with Tracy Emin and her like. It's been done, ages ago, it's all there in the museums, now go and do something different. Lots of artists do, and lots of artists don't, but it's when something is first done that it has it's biggest impact. That's not fetishisation, it's just chronological effect - done first, most remembered; done again and again, tiresome. Like climbing Everest, swimming the Channel, flying the Atlantic blah blah blah.

I don't see (and you haven't bothered to argue) exactly how any of the early-C20 works you mention pre-empt the art of Tracey Emin. I'd argue that the autobiographical needlework, short films and tableaux for which she's known are so different in motive, technique and execution it's difficut to see why you've chosen Un Chien Andalou etc to "prove" her unoriginality.

The bizarre metaphor of artistic achievement being like beating every fucker else to the top of that there mountain strikes me as verging on the surreal in its red-cheeked hyper-literalism.

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Vogon Poetess

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quote:
Originally posted by Raz:
In The Iliad doesn't Achilles kill Eric Bana because Eric Bana killed his boy? I bet that wasn't in the film. Brad Pitt doesn't do bum-ups. Except with his man-wife.

O you're all talking about Tracey Emin now.

In the fillum, Achilles' boy is his COUSIN and he is so hetero he is found in a tent in bed with 2 (two) village wenches.

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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ben

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O look, Thorn and me have synchronised our menses.
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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I can't see how you can dismiss Emin's work as "been done before", least of all by citing a bunch of things that show how far removed she is from previous movements. It's definitely more than just shocking. In fact, I don't think it's really trying to be shocking in many places.

It depends how precisely one defines "been done before". A drawing or collage of their own work space or living space is probably one of the first things many artists ever do. So Tracy Emin has taken the product a bit further? My reaction is, yeah, ok, no need to labour the point.

Installation art can be a lot of fun, absolutely, and so can performance art, but I don't see Tracy Emin's attempts as anything that hasn't been seen for years and years in any art centre in any city in the World. That she acts as if she's doing something that we should all be grateful for and full of praise for just seems silly.

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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
It depends how precisely one defines "been done before".

Well, obviously you're defining it different from me, because you've cited a bunch of examples that had very little to do with her work. Maybe your meaning "been done before" actually translates as "has nothing in common with"?
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dang65
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I've run out of bloody time!
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Raz
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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
I've run out of bloody time!

Do you mean you're about to die?

Also, Thorn, you might say you really like Tracey Emin and everything, but I bet you wouldn't kiss her on the mouth.

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Thorn Davis

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I saw this yesterday and I liked it! Alot! Large chunks of the dialogue were risible, and as ben said the women characters were rubbish; but I hate women anyway, so it didn't bother me so much.

but! mostly this film seemed to be about Men doing Men Stuff. Fighting wars and shouting alot. And there was plenty of that. If Achilles wasn't fucking people up, he was either shouting at someone or nailing hot chicks. Great!

There were some really ace moments, too. Like the Murmadons (sp? who gives a fuck) storming the beach on their own. I loved the fact that they pulled up and got ripped apart by arrows and your thinking "Haha! Wankers! Bit off more than you could chew there!" and then they gether together and the shields slot together into an impregnable half shell that begins a terrifying inexorable advance up the beach.

Also great was seeing yet another film when Orlando Bloom ruins everything for everyone and then Eric Bana has to step in and sort out the mess. They should have a TV series! That would be cool. I also enjoyed the Greeks' initial attack on the city where they fuck it up really badly. That made me laugh. Idiot Greeks!

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dang65
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Would anyone like to talk about the new Harry Potter film!

The films never manage to capture even a tiny bit of the suspense and tension in the books, and the children's acting can be quite painful at times. But the adults' acting is great all the way through, perfect casting for every single role. This series has single-handedly revived the great British character acting tradition like they used to have in Ealing and that.

But the one reason that everyone should see this film is for the sets. They completely dominate the whole movie and improve on the other two films (which had good sets anyway) by miles. The moving paintings, Hogwarts glued to the side of a mountain, mad architecture, Leaky Cauldron complete with wizard Ian Brown, the psychopathic Whomping Willow, the Knight Bus, even the dull suburbia at the beginning are all completely magnificent and presumably packed with details you won't notice till the tenth viewing or something.

I only see children's films, or stupid blockbusters like The Last Samurai which my son borrows off his mates, but comparing HP3 to them I'd say it was five star great.

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Uber Trick
DANGER!
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I found myself having a random thought on Saturday when I saw the giant looming face of Harrus passing me on a bus. I looked at his scar and thought I wish they had really carved that scar into his forehead. I thought it even more on Sunday night after I had seen the film. I thought I wish they had really carved that scar into his forehead whilst saying MUST. TRY. HARDER. With each stroke of the lightening bolt.

They have now all three disappointed me, but this one the least out of the three I must say. But yes, dang is right the sets are absolutely gorgeous. And if you do want another reason to see it then the elder Weasley brothers have grown up into a vision of cute floppygingerhaired twin-ness. Made me think of a whole new meaning for the phrase Twinset and pearls.

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uberwench

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Frank
moon-chain-silver-mother-breakfast-fry-up-sausage
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Troy = all-gay Saving Private Ryan

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Or not sure. Or not important

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Thorn Davis

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Seriously, I can see the gay thing... but Saving Private Ryan? How... how is it similar to Saving Private Ryan, except that it's got a beach in it?
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Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
Seriously, I can see the gay thing... but Saving Private Ryan? How... how is it similar to Saving Private Ryan, except that it's got a beach in it?

No, of course it isn't really, except for that long scene of the landing on the beach, with the boys hopping off the boats and getting cut down. That, and the shot were Achilles looks down at the Greeks setting up their camp, were taking directly from Saving Private Ryan.

Well, I think so anyway.

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Or not sure. Or not important

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Boy Racer
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Saw Azkaban last night.

I really enjoyed it.

I agree with dang about the acting/casting, some of the kids (particularly the background characters) are just awful, but the adult cast are almost uniformly on the money. I kept finding myself laughing as yet another actor I wasn't expecting to see turned up on screen.
My only quibble with the adult cast would be Micheal Gambon as Dumbledore, who doesn't quite manage the air of genial aloofness that Richard Harris brought to the role, and doesn't replace it with anything satisfactory of his own.

The production design and art direction are, as mentioned, a great improvement on the first two HP adaptations, despite these key roles being filled almost entirely by veterans of the first two films.
I was pleased to see a significant move away from the almost relentlessly warm light of the first two films towards a colder palette of blues and greys.
The amount of texture on screen also seems to have increased, the design seems grubbier and less polished than in the previous films, and the level of detail in the set dressing is beautiful.

What impressed me most though was the way film techniques are used alongside digital effects to create not just visual texture but emotional effects and general tone.
I don't think this change can be put down to the change of tone in the material alone, but also to the change of director.

Shame he's not doing the next one.

--------------------
Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...

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