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» TMO Talk » Society » He's looking for a smack (Page 0)

 
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Author Topic: He's looking for a smack
Jessica Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
What the fuck are you talking about? We didn't have sandwiches in disposable plastic containers and Greggs fifty years ago. It's no surprise that this country still makes Spam is it? There's your fucking culture. There's your classic english delicacy? What about faggots? MMmmmm. Nothing is as yummy as crushed eyeballs and horns in a metal tray with a cardboard lid. I'll think you'll find that excusing vindaloos (very much a tradition of eating the most red hot curry imaginable), we've plagarised cooking, not assimilated it.

OK yes - if you look at the cheapest, easiest, nastiest food then you can say "British food is slop". If you take the thinnest slice right from the bottom of the barrell, and ignore everything from that point upwards, then it looks bad. But why would you do that? Why would you say "Look! Spam isn't as nice as the food you get from a delightful little restaurant tucked away in a back street in La Rochelle!" It would be like dismissing all French wine as revolting and basing your comment on the fact that most French supermarkets sell two litres of tasteless red water in a plastic container for about 1 Euro a pop and ignoring the fact that next to it on the shelf is a bottle of St Emilion Grand Cru for 40 euros.
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Jessica Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by scrawny:
As for the Greeks - if what jessica rabbit means by 'peasant food' is anything which hasn't been sprayed with fertilizer, prepacked and left to rot on a supermarket shelf for a week, then yeah, Greek cuisine is peasant food. However, had she actually eaten anywhere other than 'Crazy Costas's taverna - Egg and Chips 5 Euros' she might know that Greek food is also intricate and rich, with loads of delicious and complex flavours. Fresh, natural ingredients and a lack of reliance on Vogon's precious tub of curry powder/MSG/Uncle Ben's/chip fat does not 'peasant food' make - or if it does, than I fail to see why the word 'peasant' should be used with such obvious negativity.

You misunderstand me what I mean by peasant food. It's not meant to be dismissive of their food exactly. That is, it's not a comment on the quality - it's a comment on the origin of the cuisine.
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OJ
I think we can save your husband's arm.
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:


Things in central London can be expensive!


Indeed. See how we've progressed from British food to English food to central London steakhouses?

And they say TMO is reductive and metro-centric. Tsk.

NWOD, I pray to Charbonnel et Walker that you never have cause to open the Sun and think of me again.

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scrawny
One Mojito, two Gin and Tonics, Three Bacardi Lime Sodas, and a couple of pints of Stella please.
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Some pretty newsworthy revelations on this thread:

Fast food snacks from chains like Gregs are cheap and nasty!

Things in central London can be expensive!

The food that tourists eat often isn't representative of the country they are visiting!


You people all make me sick.

Even more exciting revelations:

All French food consists of rabbit covered in cream, or 'slimy creatures that grub about in the mud'!

British peasants were a lot better off than any other peasants, based on no evidence whatsoever!

Russians don't have food!

I'm not criticising British food, just defending foreign food from those who can't big up their own culture without slagging off another. Besides, I can't take culinary criticism from a girl who's stated more than once that 'cooking is for ponces' and that 'supernoodles' are 'food'. [Wink]

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...because that's the kind of guy you are.

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dang65
it's all the rage
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This defensiveness over British food is understandable from people who really do eat well every day and have found pleasant and reasonably priced eateries (!!) in their local area. We all know those sort of places exist, but it's like someone hearing criticism of British public transport and saying, "But I travel on the Conwy Valley line every day and it's always on time and it's clean and beautiful (apart from Blaenau Ffestiniog)." It's really not fair to judge the whole on a few hand-picked examples.

Yes, we can all do our best to avoid Subway and Little Chef and Beefeater Inns, but the fact remains that those sort of places are in the vast majority in this country, as are crap railway services. The gourmands on here have as much right to defend British food in general as someone who goes to Eton has the right to defend British comprehensive schools. We must look at the general, everyday supply of food in this country and admit that it is terrible. Did no one watch Jamie's School Dinners?

How about Gordon's Kitchen Nightmares? He goes to restaurants which have a Michelin Star and finds that they're serving up Captain Bird's Eye fishfingers or whatever. And charging £50 a head for the privilege.

I'm sure there's dodgy French restaurants too. God knows, I used to work in one a few years ago. But the general standard of generally available food in those European countries is so far above ours as to be off the scale. Maybe things are changing here now, but the change I see is a kind of desperate attempt to copy rather than just improve our own stuff - so Greggs will sell a feta cheese salad ciabatta or something, and it will be completely vile. I wonder how many people go to Greece or Italy and say, "I'm not having that feta cheese salad and ciabatta muck. I tried that before from Greggs and it was disgusting."

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saltrock
"absolutely no idea whatsoever"
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One of the absolute best things about going abroad is, for me, the food.

Whilst I'll quite happily admit that some aspects of British food are fantastic, the main readily available high street food outlets leave a hell of a lot to be desired. It is hard to find a decent sandwich or snack and if you do find something that is really good, you usually have to pay an absolute fecking fortune for it. Whereas, in France, Germany and Spain [the only other countries that I have spent enough time in to know about] you can pretty much always get something really good easily and cheaply as it's the norm and not the exception.

There are exceptions of course. In the Canary Islands for instance, they have a complete lack of decent fruit and veg. They grow great bananas and tomatoes, but that's really about all. And I've found in Greece too that they don't really "do" veg. But of course, these places have their own areas that they excel in to compensate.

The worst food I have ever, ever had was in America. We made the mistake of going to Disney, staying within the resort and not hiring a car. The food was so unutterably terrible that it defies description. One day we'd done a dance of celebration in the street because we came across a jacket potato seller. "YAY! Real food!" No. The potato was ok but I'd asked for cheese and bacon on mine and I had a little tub of pouring cheese, like cheese spread but bright, lurid orange and runnier and the bacon was like that bacon grit you put on your salad in Pizzahut - you know, the stuff that tastes like Frazzles instead of actual bacon. We ended up going to the Epcot centre for chinese most nights.

I'm very jealous of Physic. I'd love to go to Oktoberfest again. I had great garlic soup there [Smile]

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Call that a contribution?

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Jessica Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by scrawny:
I'm not criticising British food, just defending foreign food from those who can't big up their own culture without slagging off another.

I'm not trying to slag off other countries' food - unless you count my comment that French meat was stringy. Prefaced, of course by the comment that they make delicious sauces. (Feel the rage!) But this is how the cuisine of a country - or even a region - develops: through the weaknesses of its ingredients almost as much as through the strengths. British peasants did eat better, because the British countryside is so condusive to different types of farming. And modern British food marries the peasant food with that of the aristocracy, in a way that Greek cuisine doesn't.

As for the comment on Russia - I can hardly believe you're having to resort to such an obviously un-serious comment to try to beat me over the head. But let me clarify: I don't genuinely believe that Russia doesn't have food. I wasn't being serious when I said Russia doesn't have food.

The reputation of British food was damaged during and after the second world war through rationing, and Chirac's comments are a hangover from that. I think it's a shame people still believe it's true.

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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessica Rabbit:
The reputation of British food was damaged during and after the second world war through rationing, and Chirac's comments are a hangover from that. I think it's a shame people still believe it's true.

We suffered crap food to help them out during the war and now their leader takes the piss out of us for it! I'm glad he's stuck in a bottle. I hope nobody rubs him the right way for a very long time...
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Black Mask

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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
Ah hang it, let the French have their world-class cuisine. Given the way the last century or so worked out, I'm sure they'd exchange it all in a second for the undisputed British talent for killing Germans.

LOL

I thought of this thread last night while I was watching Escape to the Legion. Apparently, the French Foreign Legion was set up, by the French, as a mercenary force to fight French wars against the Arabs, but no French were to be recruited, hence the name. So, they wanted tough, ruthless, disciplined soldiers and they decided Rule No.1 was No French. See? When push comes to shove they know their weaknesses, really.

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sweet

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Vogon Poetess

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quote:
Originally posted by scrawny:
Besides, I can't take culinary criticism from a girl who's stated more than once that 'cooking is for ponces' and that 'supernoodles' are 'food'. [Wink]

Heh heh, quite so. But that's kind of my point. I really dislike pretentious wanking on about food. I think British food suffers from this kind of attitude, as it is not seen as trendy.

I don't have a very refined palate, but I know that Britain serves up a great range of farm and game meat and fresh and saltwater fish and seafood in various different regional specialities. However, it also caters really well for people like me who don't eat meat or fish. I can confidently expect to get at least one decent vegetarian choice in most UK restaurants or pubs. I think British cooking's versatility and adaptability is an underated strength.

I really don't enjoy eating out much abroad as I know from experience it's a struggle to find a cuisine that can cope with vegetarians. I'm sure just the fact of being vegetarian means most of you will dismiss my attitude to food out of hand, but to my mind the fact that food in this country can still be tasty and varied without meat and fish speaks volumes about our approach to food.

Obviously you lived in Italy for longer than me, but my point about my time there was that I wasn't just living like a tourist, we spent a lot of time scouring small shops and out of town hypermarkets trying to find something to vary our diet. If you wanted to cook something in a Mexican, Chinese or Indian style, it was a real effort.

I was exaggerating my view of French cooking, in keeping with Jacques the cheeky little Gallic monkey's comments, but I do get the impression that French cooking is overrated. A French restaurant would be last on my list of places to eat out.

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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Vogon Poetess

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quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:

I thought of this thread last night while I was watching Escape to the Legion. Apparently, the French Foreign Legion was set up, by the French, as a mercenary force to fight French wars against the Arabs, but no French were to be recruited, hence the name. So, they wanted tough, ruthless, disciplined soldiers and they decided Rule No.1 was No French. See? When push comes to shove they know their weaknesses, really.

Heh, I remember a Rob Newman sketch from way back. He was doing an impression of "the French Resistance in WW2": mimes someone creeping cautiously out from behind a wall, shakes fist at retreating German army, "and don't come back!" (French accent).

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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New Way Of Decay

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessica Rabbit:

OK yes - if you look at the cheapest, easiest, nastiest food then you can say "British food is slop". If you take the thinnest slice right from the bottom of the barrell, and ignore everything from that point upwards, then it looks bad. But why would you do that? Why would you say "Look! Spam isn't as nice as the food you get from a delightful little restaurant tucked away in a back street in La Rochelle!" It would be like dismissing all French wine as revolting and basing your comment on the fact that most French supermarkets sell two litres of tasteless red water in a plastic container for about 1 Euro a pop and ignoring the fact that next to it on the shelf is a bottle of St Emilion Grand Cru for 40 euros.

You're right of course, but two things:

1.) I'm from the school of thinking that food is good and bad wherever you go. I just disagree with your pointers that Britain has a history of 'assimilating' culinary dishes. That's a weak argument to accompany that we have a mile long selection of delicious tasty foodstuffs. We have a limited selection of national dishes. As you seem to like your comparisons, it would be like saying that the Americans have an amazing history, because of all the varied migration of nationalities when the land was discovered by Columbus and colonised. Ie, it's untrue bollocks.

Superlol at VP though. I mean, for gods sake, if she does choose to use the correct crockery, it's to eat Super Noodles. It would be easier for me to compile a very small list of where they are considered real food.

  • Students houses
  • thatisall


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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessica Rabbit:
British peasants did eat better, because the British countryside is so condusive to different types of farming. And modern British food marries the peasant food with that of the aristocracy, in a way that Greek cuisine doesn't.

Talk of British 'peasants' is a bit anachronistic - we haven't had a peasantry comparable to that on the continent since the Middle Ages; this is why, I think, the food here is such a mix-and-match. Millions of people forced off the land during the agricultural and industrial revolutions were alienated from traditional methods and styles of cooking as they adjusted to life in the town or city.

Millions of others had their culinary taste/aspirations modified by periods of service in the houses of the wealthy and the emergent middle class.

Because of the Napoleonic Code, a much higher proportion of the French have direct family connections to the countryside - even those who've lived in towns for several generations will have siblings or cousins in the country who kept on with the family farm while their urban counterparts rented back to them whatever portion of the estate they'd inherited. A style of cooking and - more crucially - an attitude towards food was thereby preserved.

The current veneration of Continental cuisine is partly a reaction to the dour, Protestant 'meat and two veg' attitude towards food that held sway in this country for a long time; possibly connected to the grim, Victorian dynamism that drove the Empire ("Beer, beef, business, bibles, bulldogs, battleships, buggery and bishops" - Joyce). It's gained a second wind with the Elizabeth David/Terence Conran conception of Mediterranean "good living" that came with the consumer boom of the late-50s and early-60s.

Add that perennial British obsession of class with these two - pride/anxieties about place in the world and rampant consumerism - and you end up with food, and conspicuous consumption of food, morphing into the sort of social status indicator that used to be occupied by respectability (how clean is your doorstep? how does your daughter disport herself in public?) and religion (do you go to chapel or church?).

From the hipster ironically gorging herself on a week-out-of-date packet of Billy Bear face-ham to the sub-Peter Mayle 'good living' gourmand waxing interminably on the merits of Alsatian boules de suif - they're all symptoms of the same pathology.

Also: I was quite surprised to hear Pizza Express described as "third rate". Whatever might be said of some of the other chains, I think that one is actually pretty decent.

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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessica Rabbit:
The reputation of British food was damaged during and after the second world war through rationing, and Chirac's comments are a hangover from that. I think it's a shame people still believe it's true.

I hate to appear to be dragging an argument out, but this is an interesting comment. For starters (heh heh), I've heard many people suggesting that the British diet was far healthier when it was restricted to carrots, potatoes and cabbage from the allotment, mixed with a bit of rationed beef or lamb than we are now with unlimited, all-year-round access to every delicious variety of lard on the planet.

I wasn't around during the War, but I've seen wartime recipe books, and TV series where they recreated that era (The Wartime Kitchen or something?) and it looks like they had some great scram in those days. Austere perhaps, but decent and wholesome, excepting powdered eggs perhaps.

It's long after the war that completely processed food became commonplace. Stuff like sliced bread and microwave meals may have been around for years, but they've only become the normal standard in the last twenty-five years or so, and rising. In other words, our standards have got far worse, not slowly recovered from wartime disaster.

Also, you "think it's a shame people still believe it's true", but it blatantly is true. I just don't see how you can deny this. Where is the evidence of improved standards? There are little "Organic" sections in the supermarket. Almost always deserted, except by those with unlimited funds. But why is this stuff unique? Many brands, like Weetabix or Heinz Baked Beans, are available in special organic versions. Why? Surely the tiny little special section in the supermarket should be labelled "chemically treated, added salt and sugar, reclaimed slop", and only be visited by those already afflicted with BSE. Organic should be the standard, not the exception. Er, as it was during rationing.

A lot of those comments may well stand in other countries. I know Euro supermarkets are just as laden with shit as ours. But it's worth noting that the rest of Europe wasn't exactly unaffected by the War, culinarily speaking as well as in other ways. How come their cooking didn't suffer then?

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Darryn.R
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What about Peperami Noodles (In store now priced at 59p) are they Haute Cuisine ?

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my own brother a god dam shit sucking vampire!!! you wait till mum finds out buddy!


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New Way Of Decay

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But what I mean is, you know Veep, don't let my food snobbery taint you. But just to steer you off, One of the daemon McKeiths meals has more nutrition than your suprasnoodli.

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New Way Of Decay

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I just can't get enough of this! Dang offers proof that the war not only affected German morale, but our humble british supper. Aces.

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Black Mask

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:

I wasn't around during the War, but I've seen wartime recipe books, and TV series where they recreated that era (The Wartime Kitchen or something?) and it looks like they had some great scram in those days. Austere perhaps, but decent and wholesome, excepting powdered eggs perhaps.

I think that's the problem, the attitude to food was 'Don't get too excited, it's only snook.' Food was considered fuel, end of. Everyone must've seen the wartime posters, DON'T ASK WHAT IT IS! JUST SWALLOW IT! and ARE YOU A TRAITOR? WORKING FOR HITLER? NO? THEN STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING AND EAT SLOP!

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sweet

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Physic
Digital PIMP !
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quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
try the L'Atelier Renault on the Champs Elysees. As well as ordering a well prepared steak tartare you can also gawk at the the most recent Renault creations. It's also open well after midnight.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'm not sure I'm brave enough to try steak tartare but the place certainly looks well worth a visit.

Oh and Saltrock, *nerr na na nerr nerr*! [Wink]

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Vogon Poetess

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quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
But what I mean is, you know Veep, don't let my food snobbery taint you. But just to steer you off, One of the daemon McKeiths meals has more nutrition than your suprasnoodli.

You know, I have somewhat exaggerated my fondness for Supernoodles. In fact, I've only eaten them once in the last four months, and that was as a hangover snack.

I really hate this wankery that a lot of people fall into when they stop being students and move to London. Suddenly, fine upstanding meals like beans n cheese on toast aren't good enough any more. Nobody makes their own sandwiches to take to work, they have to pay £3.50 for one from a rip off shop. If it doesn't feature in a Jamie or Nigella cookbook, then it isn't food. You have to use verbs like "drizzle" and "sautee".

I was an incredibly fussy eater as a child, but luckily had very patient parents and grew up in a civilised country. If I'd grown up in France, I would have starved to death by the age of about 11, I reckon. Is this the reason why their population is less than ours perhaps?

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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scrawny
One Mojito, two Gin and Tonics, Three Bacardi Lime Sodas, and a couple of pints of Stella please.
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
Also: I was quite surprised to hear Pizza Express described as "third rate". Whatever might be said of some of the other chains, I think that one is actually pretty decent.

You forget Ben, I am an unbelievable snob when it comes to Italian food. But yes, Pizza Express is actually very nice. I stand corrected. [Big Grin]

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...because that's the kind of guy you are.

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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:

I was an incredibly fussy eater as a child, but luckily had very patient parents and grew up in a civilised country. If I'd grown up in France, I would have starved to death by the age of about 11, I reckon. Is this the reason why their population is less than ours perhaps?

The French make bad children into sausages.

[ 05.07.2005, 06:47: Message edited by: ben ]

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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
The French make bad children into sausages.

That's true to some extent, but enfants who specifically refuse to eat are force-fed until their livers become fatted and tasty. Then they are harvested and sold in the most expensive restaurants.

[ 05.07.2005, 06:52: Message edited by: MiscellaneousFiles ]

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ben

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Potentially the best Roald Dahl story never written.
[Frown]

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New Way Of Decay

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Paganini was undoubtedly the finest violinist in the world. His father would beat him and deny him food if he didn't practice from sunrise to sunset. The moral of this story: abused children make fine violinists. Think about it. If you beat and starve your children, they could acomplish your goals. Their goals. I mean their goals.

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Black Mask

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No one fiddles like a hungry child.

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sweet

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scrawny
One Mojito, two Gin and Tonics, Three Bacardi Lime Sodas, and a couple of pints of Stella please.
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
I really hate this wankery that a lot of people fall into when they stop being students and move to London. Suddenly, fine upstanding meals like beans n cheese on toast aren't good enough any more. Nobody makes their own sandwiches to take to work, they have to pay £3.50 for one from a rip off shop. If it doesn't feature in a Jamie or Nigella cookbook, then it isn't food. You have to use verbs like "drizzle" and "sautee".

I see where you're coming from with the post-student thing. However, since my student days, I reckon (and would hope) my priorities have changed. I never ate that badly as a student I don't think (apart from the endless takeouts from Adam's Plaice), but I was well aware that every bit of money I spent on food would be money taken away from what were then my two real pleasures in life, drinking and taking drugs (oh I'm so proud). Oh, and struggling to pay rent every month (a lowly third in the pecking order behind getting shitfaced and getting even more shitfaced). But I don't really party that hard any more. Spending a bit more money and time on really nice food seems appropriate as it's something that I now really enjoy. London makes me feel shit enough without the permanent sense of discomfort that comes from only putting crap into your body.

Also, without dragging up the dinner party conversation again, I like putting time and effort into cooking something really special for my friends and enjoying it together. I know they'd be probably be just as happy with cheese on toast, but I enjoy the build-up and serve-up too much to ever want to fling a bit of cheddar at them and hope for the best. I've always liked doing this, too - it's not necessarily just a London thing. I just never did it before because I got distracted by a bag of pills and some Moscow Mule. Maybe I'm just making up for lost time.

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...because that's the kind of guy you are.

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Toilet Duck
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Oops. I stop to blink and the thread gains 2 pages.

[ 05.07.2005, 08:00: Message edited by: Toilet Duck ]

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El Pollo Diablo

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scrawny
One Mojito, two Gin and Tonics, Three Bacardi Lime Sodas, and a couple of pints of Stella please.
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Also, I interviewed the guy a couple of days ago who was largely responsible for putting Dr. Gillian on TV. I could barely look him in the eye.

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...because that's the kind of guy you are.

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Samuelnorton
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
The French make bad children into sausages.

Hmm. This probably explains why there are so few badly behaved children in French restaurants.

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"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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Abby
Slave Girl of Gor
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When I went on the French Exchange with school the other English girl staying with my family cut all the heads of the asparagus and ate the stalks, and cried because the fish had eyes.

I grew fat that week...

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ben

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Find it a bit rich that Chirac made his remarks to leaders whose countries have contributed to international agriculture and cuisine respectively,
  • DDT and sauerkraut
  • Collectivisation and Ukrainian infants

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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
Find it a bit rich...

That'll be all the cream.

[ 05.07.2005, 08:58: Message edited by: MiscellaneousFiles ]

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Black Mask

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Just came back from St John, again.

I had lambs' tongues with green sauce and then the devilled kidneys. Mrs Mask had roast marrow bones and then halibut (best tartare sauce ever!).

Superb. Fergus was having lunch in there today. It's a lot cheaper when you're not caning the wine list.

--------------------
sweet

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MiscellaneousFiles

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What's for dessert? Peacock's vomit?

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