posted
I'm curious about the moral outrage that infidelity provokes. The worst thing you can do to someone if you're in a relationship with them is "cheat" on them - a tiresome tabloid euphemism that covers the gamut of interpersonal and sexual conduct with someone outside of your relationship. I'm struck by the contrast between the compulsion to commitment and fidelity on the one hand, and the range and apparent frequency of non-exclusive sexual proclivities, from swinging to an affair, on the other.
Surely an awful lot of relationship angst would be avoided if the moral compulsion to exclusivity was lessened? Or renegotiated, so that it's understood differently?
I've just counselled a friend through a rather messy breakup. Her husband of three years, I've just discovered, beat her up so badly on her honeymoon that she suffered three cracked ribs and the police were called to their hotel. She put up with regular beatings, but it was the discovery of a one-night stand with one of his staff that prompted her to leave. Personally, I'm more concerned about the beatings than a lapse in sexual morality. She thinks differently, which is what has inspired this thread.
E.T.A. Noted, thanks dang. I can't type much before lunchtime, but I think most people knew that already.
quote:Originally posted by ally: Surely an awful lot of relationship angst would be avoided if the moral compulsion to exclusivity was lessened? Or renegotiated, so that it's understood differently?
You say this as if it's some kind of active choice we make, as if people who have been cheated on calmly appraise the situation then take a decision to be hurt by their partners infidelity but that's simply not how it works. You can't renegotiate emotions, putting down a logical argument to someone saying "Look, no, you shouldn't be hurt by this action because of X, Y and Z" doesn't actually make any sense.
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posted
Isn't it that people put up with a lot of stuff in the name of love? Or at least whilst believing they are loved? I think that's why the cheating element is so important to people, because aren't relationships about believing you are with someone who reciprocates your love?
(Good thread btw!)
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quote:Originally posted by ally: I'm curious about the moral outrage that infidelity provokes. The worst thing you can do to someone if you're in a relationship with them is "cheat" on them - a tiresome tabloid euphemism that covers the gamut of interpersonal and sexual conduct with someone outside of your relationship. I'm struck by the contrast between the compulsion to commitment and fidelity on the one hand, and the range and apparent frequency of non-exclusive sexual proclivities, from swinging to an affair, on the other.
As Bamba says, you're taking a disconcertingly olympian perspective on this - surely if you discovered your partner was having sex with someone else the words 'cheating', 'betrayal' etc etc would seem entirely apposite, rather than the worn-out tabloid mainstays they are when the focus is on the love lives of the incidentally famous.
The disturbing case of your friend is maybe too extreme to be of use when assessing the attitudes and behaviour of most couples. But I never heard an argument for an open relationship that didn't sound like the rationalisation of a doormat on the one hand or the self-justification of of a hypocrite on the other.
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quote: But I never heard an argument for an open relationship that didn't sound like the rationalisation of a doormat on the one hand or the self-justification of of a hypocrite on the other.
I'm thinking that instead of trying to justify infidelity we instead look at the compulsion to absolute lifelong fidelity, which seems an unsustainable ideal. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
posted
quote:Originally posted by ally: I'm curious about the moral outrage that infidelity provokes.
Isn’t is less about the moral outrage and more about the plain old rage? You commit yourself to someone, you’re intimate with them – emotionally as well as physically – and most of what makes that intimacy so special, so amazing is that this is something you have that’s just between you. Betrayal is about betrayal of trust, about pulling the rug out from under everything a relationship is built on, about humiliating your partner.
I have never been so out-of-control, scared-myself, adrenalin-burn angry in my life as when I found out that my boyfriend had slept with someone else while I was away. In that moment if I could have killed him I would.
Surely saying ‘oh it would all be easier if we didn’t have this social idea that we should be exclusive’ is missing the point entirely. We are morally outraged because we understand the hideousness of what has been done to someone.
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quote: You can't renegotiate emotions, putting down a logical argument to someone saying "Look, no, you shouldn't be hurt by this action because of X, Y and Z" doesn't actually make any sense.
I don't think emotions are absolutes, though. They're conditioned responses. The emphasis on fidelity in a relationship is not universal and ahistorical, and the emotional responses to infidelity are subjective.
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quote:Originally posted by ally: I'm thinking that instead of trying to justify infidelity we instead look at the compulsion to absolute lifelong fidelity, which seems an unsustainable ideal. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. [/QB]
That being the case, the thread title and the first post are a little misleading, I think. Posing the question "What's the big deal with infidelity" is different from asking "Why would anyone want to pursue the ideal of lifelong fidelity?" - it's like a shifting of the 'burden of proof'.
eta. Your post directly above is, I think, quite comprehensively answered by Octavia's post (made at the same time). There may well be people who respond to infidelity in a partner with equanimity and increased sense of satisfaction with their own liberal outlook - but not many, I would wager.
posted
I don't think it's impossible to pursue lifelong fidelity. You could go out with like, I dunno, 15 people over the next 40 odd years, and be faithful to each one.
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quote:Originally posted by Octavia: I have never been so out-of-control, scared-myself, adrenalin-burn angry in my life as when I found out that my boyfriend had slept with someone else while I was away. In that moment if I could have killed him I would.
See I didn't get that. I found it a useful vindication of a mounting suspicion that I was finding it difficult to outright prove and a relief that i wan't paranoid - just 'right', as well as a handy pointer that it was time to move on. Anger wasn't really a factor at all. I'd ceased to care, I think.
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posted
But if there is a pecking order of relationship misdemeanours, why is sexual fidelity top of the list? Why is sexual infidelity considered "worse" than domestic violence, say, or financial impropriety?
scrawny
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posted
I get ally's point, I think. we're conditioned to accept an absolute code of behaviour that dictates that infidelity is always bad. The word itself is a bad word - is there a nicer way to say 'sleeping with more than one person during the same period of time'?
My take on the whole thing has always been a bit confused. Whilst I would be hurt and betrayed beyond measure if my partner were to 'be intimate' (deliberately avoiding the tabloidy words) with someone else, my rational head thinks it's unreasonable to expect that one person can fulfil all of your emotional, physical, spiritual needs for a lifetime. I have, in the past, been involved in situations where although nothing sexual ever took place, I was to all intents and purposes involved in an emotional affair with someone who was not my partner of the time. Isn't that worse? Is the stigma just attached to sexual infidelity? Oh I don't know. *Loses thread, gives up*.
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quote:Originally posted by ally: But if there is a pecking order of relationship misdemeanours, why is sexual fidelity top of the list? Why is sexual infidelity considered "worse" than domestic violence, say, or financial impropriety?
I think - as ben suggested - that your friend's case is unusual. For one, I could stay friends with a mate who cheated on his girlfriend, but if he smacked the shit out of his wife, I definitely couldn't. I know plenty of girls who'd maybe be willing to work through an lapse of fidelity, but few who'd put up with a punch. So. I don't think you can say that infidelity is widely considered to be worse than domestic violence. People don't go to gaol for infidelity.
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scrawny
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posted
quote:Originally posted by ally: But if there is a pecking order of relationship misdemeanours, why is sexual fidelity top of the list? Why is sexual infidelity considered "worse" than domestic violence, say, or financial impropriety?
It's not worse than domestic violence in my book. But I suppose people's reaction to it could be justified in that a husband who beats his wife could be said to be a troubled soul, he might have had a violent upbringing, he might need psychological help, whereas sleeping with someone else implies an unarguable lack of respect. Although domestic violence = wrong (no excuse kids) , from a female perspective I could maybe see that it would be easeir to stick with a man who beat me and promised to change than a man who slept with other women periodically.
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scrawny
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posted
Holy shit. Thorn and I are diametrically opposed.
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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
posted
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: See I didn't get that. I found it a useful vindication of a mounting suspicion that I was finding it difficult to outright prove and a relief that i wan't paranoid - just 'right', as well as a handy pointer that it was time to move on. Anger wasn't really a factor at all. I'd ceased to care, I think.
Perhaps one's reaction changes according to the phase of the relationship. If you had no suspicion, and were trotting along happily in a cheery fashion during honeymoon-phase time when this happened, you might feel differently.
quote:Originally posted by scrawny: I get ally's point, I think. we're conditioned to accept an absolute code of behaviour that dictates that infidelity is always bad. The word itself is a bad word - is there a nicer way to say 'sleeping with more than one person during the same period of time'?
polyamory. i have an internet acquaintance who is currently 'seeing' seven 'partners'. which is just greedy, really.
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scrawny
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posted
I'm never organised enough to be unfaithful. My mate was telling me the other day about a work colleague of hers who'd been living happily with her boyfriend for TEN YEARS, until the day she got a phonecall from the guy's fiancee asking who the hell she was. She went round to this woman's house, saw photos of them on holiday together, found out about the 600,000 pound house they'd just put a deposit down on...When she confronted him, he admitted it all, saying he'd never thought it would get that far, and then dealt the final blow with these words:
'I just never thought someone like her would ever fancy me'.
*sound of kitchen knife being sharpened*
The guy was a journalist and had been 'away' on 'assignments' an awful lot. Thing is, I cannot even imagine the amount of lying the guy would have had to have done, from teeny white lies to huge colossal elaborate fabrications, to maintain that lifestyle for however long. I think telling those kind of porkies is less iinfidelity, and more pathological. What a **** . Honestly.
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quote:Originally posted by scrawny: We're conditioned to accept an absolute code of behaviour that dictates that infidelity is always bad. The word itself is a bad word - is there a nicer way to say 'sleeping with more than one person during the same period of time'?
The thing is though, if you use this 'nicer way of saying it' then you're no longer actually talking about infidelity. If you're in a relationship in which you've got an arrangement that it's okay to sleep with other people then you're not actually being unfaithful and infidelity can't be used to describe the situation. If, on the other hand, you're in the usual relationship then 'sleeping with more than one person during the same period of time' is only a literal description of your actions which just doesn't cut it, 'infidelity' or 'unfaithfulness' though describe the situation in it's entirety by encompassing not just the physical actions but the moral repurcussions as well.
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posted
Note: I haven't described that very well, I'm feeling linguistically challenged at the moment.
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scrawny
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Bamba: Note: I haven't described that very well, I'm feeling linguistically challenged at the moment.
I think we were making the same point. My thoughts were that if sleeping wiith someone else is generally referred to as infidelity (even if it's not technically being unfaithful) the action will always be associated with the same negative connotations implied by the word.
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posted
I don't think you can have a blanket rule on what your response would be to infidelity it would depend on many different things such as the stage of the relationship as mentioned by Octavia and Thorn, the length of time and the type of betrayal as touched upon by Scrawny.
For me I think I could forgive an infidelity if it was a one off purely sexual encounter (snog / shag) and no other emotional involvement in the confines of a committed long-term relationship if I thought that relationship was worth saving. But I would walk if my partner raised a hand against me. And I have done in the past.
I would find it harder to forgive an emotional affair, even if my partner decided that I was the one they wanted to be with in the end. I don't know that I could trust them again after that.
We've discussed a similar theme before and I admitted then to having committed two cases of "infidelity" - once at the end of a three year relationship after my ex had hit me during an argument and a few days later I slept with M - my (now soon to be ex-) husband; and once a couple of years ago when I was hit by an attraction unlike anything I had encountered before. My relationship of a few months standing was going through a rocky patch. Well to all intents and purposes it was over but it hadn't been verbalised yet. We were "having a break" (to be all Friends about it) when I slept with my affairee but it was a few days after the event that I met with and formally ended my relationship with my boyfriend.
When I posted those examples before people were generally quite understanding about the situations I had been in and didn't think that they really counted as "affairs" as such. I don't know. I don't see myself as an unfaithfull person, although technically I have been unfaithful in the past.
I think you always have to look at the individual circumstances before making your decision. But however much you might have rules and thoughts on a subject like "how to treat infidelity in your relationship" you can't always apply them in a situation when it is actually happening to you.
posted
I've been unfaithful to every girlfriend I've had, and it's alright sometimes, others not. I don't regret any of it though. A few dodgy moments here and there, usually when some kind of indelible physical mark remains (stained clothes, broken furniture) that will always taunt you. Amateur infidelity doesn't require organization, just booziness and a bit of time without your partner. Yet, as Eastenders teaches us, it always leads to bad things in the end, if only because it opens the floodgates for more illegal shagging.
I once slapped a girl, and it probably took longer to stash the guilt from that incident than it did from, for example, the second or third time I'd cheat on a partner. The worse one though was when I was on a dancefloor, and then I was bleeding on the floor being dragged out of the door of the bar, and I had no idea what happened. My friend was puking in the toilets so he didn't know either. I went back the next day to find out why I had been floored, and the lady at the bar says that she didn't see it either, but the bloke who punched me in the face said that I'd punched a girl. Man, that was harsh. To this day, I doubt that I did it, but that whole 'never knowing' thing is a real pisser. Whatever.
I'd be more willing to stick with a chick who beat me than one who shagged other guys. I reckon that I could be well easily controlled with violence. I'd probably become a bit mesmerised by it. Even if they were hitting me, it would still be part of our relationship. There would still be some connection, even if it was abusive. If she was shagging other dudes, then I would feel that the connection would be lost. Perhaps the violence would strengthen things.. Define our roles, create an awful secret, and lock us together in the shame of being abused and abuser. The relationship would be difficult, a challenge, a game. Try to find the solution or get hurt. My body would become hers, the scars and cuts would be her property. I would be able to feel her anger every time I moved, and that would make her a constant presence. For a while, anyway, I think I'd put up with being bashed about.
posted
I think though you're saying that as someone who never has been hit by a partner though, right? Much as I'm saying I would probably forgive a one-off infidelity. Or maybe it's different for men and women? Could it be a gender thing? I think it's probably more to do with how you place your self-worth.
posted
Dr Benway, are you saying that women in abusive relationships might maybe like it? "mesmerised... strengthen the relationship", all quite positive terms.
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quote:Originally posted by Uber Trick: I think you always have to look at the individual circumstances before making your decision. But however much you might have rules and thoughts on a subject like "how to treat infidelity in your relationship" you can't always apply them in a situation when it is actually happening to you.
I think we fundamentally differ on this point and I want to state explicitly that I'm not laying down some sort of moral law about how people should or shouldn't behave. I do, however, think that there's some value in maintaining some sort of standard, essentially - as that Channel 4 thing 'decided' the other night - treating people with the kind of respect you'd expect to be treated with yourself.
Employ a 'sliding scale' of how to behave in different situations and the whole fidelity/faithfulness thing can become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: 'I want to mess around with B therefore my relationship with A must already be in trouble therefore it's okay for me to mess around with B'.
It isn't just about treating others right, it's also about trying to save yourself from making decisions which - whatever your own take on it - will have far-reaching and often unintended consequences way out of proportion to the amount of satisfaction that might result from something that was 'just a shag' or whatever.
Ultimately, the question of whether we're hardwired or inclined or remotely bothered enough to be faithful to a particular partner at a particular time is going to be down to individual personality - but when you enter a relationship with someone there's usually a shared assumption that you're going to treat each other right. If there are disclaimers or opt-out clauses to that unspoken agreement, it might at least be courteous to inform the person in question before you exercise such rights.
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posted
Not that I've ever been in an abusive relationship but I've been close to a couple of women who have and the harsh truth is that it isn't always as simple as "If anyone ever hit me I'd simply walk". The first time it happens it can be suprisingly easy to believe that it was a one off, the result of an angry agrument or whatever and that it won't happen again. The apologies are sincere and it can difficult to throw away a relationship over something that could end up being a one off. After the second time things obviously get more complicated but then the guilt starts to creep in, the thought that if you told anyone they'd judge you for not walking away the first time because, well, that's what you're supposed to do innit? Having said all that, the twice I've seen this happen the physical abuse has begun after a regime of mental abuse was well established and the victims confidence had been slowly eroded so far that they would believe practically anything they were told and were thus easier to control. Perhaps my strongest memory of all this though is having someone vocalise their utter shock that they would ever find themselves in this situation, the disbelief that it was happening to them and not someone else and that they hadn't simply walked away the instant things had went wrong as they'd spent years telling themselves they would. That alone is enough to convince me that these situation aren't as simple as people might like to think and that the answer isn't always cut and dried (though it can be in cases like Ubers example).
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quote:Originally posted by Jessica Rabbit: Dr Benway, are you saying that women in abusive relationships might maybe like it? "mesmerised... strengthen the relationship", all quite positive terms.
No, I was talking about me being on the wrong end of an abusive relationship. It can happen, you know! And I'm only little. I think that I could easily be dominated through violence. When I say strengthen, I mean that the exterior world would become less important, and that of the relationship would grow in intensity and importance. It would dominate my thoughts more. 'Dominate' is probably a good word for it; I could be 'dominated' if I was with a girl who turned violent. It would be a challenge for me, both to stick it out, and to try and alter it.
[ 02.03.2005, 09:45: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
quote:Originally posted by Uber Trick: I think though you're saying that as someone who never has been hit by a partner though, right? Much as I'm saying I would probably forgive a one-off infidelity. Or maybe it's different for men and women? Could it be a gender thing? I think it's probably more to do with how you place your self-worth.
I've been belted a few times, but never out of the blue. Often in connection with cheating
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I think that I could easily be dominated through violence. When I say strengthen, I mean that the exterior world would become less important, and that of the relationship would grow in intensity and importance. It would dominate my thoughts more.
*Leans back in chair.*
*Steeples fingers thoughtfully.*
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quote:Originally posted by ben: I think we fundamentally differ on this point and I want to state explicitly that I'm not laying down some sort of moral law about how people should or shouldn't behave. I do, however, think that there's some value in maintaining some sort of standard, essentially - as that Channel 4 thing 'decided' the other night - treating people with the kind of respect you'd expect to be treated with yourself.
I don't know, I agree with you ben, you should have some personal moral thoughts and rules etc but I'm just saying that if it happens to you that you might not react like you think you will. (You as in 'one', natch). I really applaud your thoughts on commitment, love and fidelity and am constantly reassured by the fact that if you believe - and more to the point - uphold those values then there must be more men like you out there.
quote:Originally posted by ben: Ultimately, the question of whether we're hardwired or inclined or remotely bothered enough to be faithful to a particular partner at a particular time is going to be down to individual personality - but when you enter a relationship with someone there's usually a shared assumption that you're going to treat each other right. If there are disclaimers or opt-out clauses to that unspoken agreement, it might at least be courteous to inform the person in question before you exercise such rights.
That is similar to what I put in my email to the publications manager when I found out that far from being free and single to pursue me on that fateful night he was actually in a relationship and neglected to tell me. Therefore making me a part of betraying his girlfriend - but I hadn't actually had any choice in the matter. If he'd told me he had a girlfriend I would have told him where to get off. And it wouldn't have been at my flat.
Bamba - I agree it's never as easy as it appears, I thought I had implied that by saying you may not react how you think you will at the time. So apologies if I didn't make that clear. I certainly didn't want to imply that anyone who didn't walk the first time it happened was in any way weak or foolish.
In my case the relationship was more or less over when it happened anyway and in a way it made it easier for me to leave as I'd said to him before that if he ever hit me I would leave. The only reason we'd ever even had that conversation was that I found out a couple of years into our relationship that he had hit a past girlfriend and I asked him about it. His reply will stay with me forever: I said "Would you ever hit me?" he thought about it for a bit and then replied "No, I don't think so. But I might kick you." And he wasn't even being ironic.
scrawny
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posted
It's such a fine line though, isn't it. I've hit Bandy before, but I am pathetically weak so the actual physicality of the action wouldn't amount to more than, say, a playful tap on the arm from Ben. Similarly, Bandy has thrown a shoe at me before (honestly. Who throws a shoe?), but because he is a bad shot (and knows it) it didn't come anywhere near me. Both actions are physical manifestations of frustration, and i wouldn't class either of them as domestic abuse. Wheteher that would stand up in court, I don't know.
I've never been hit by a boyfriend, but i have been held by the wrists more than once to stop me from leaving somewhere, and once been shaken whilst being held by the wrists, enough to leave bruises. The guy that did this is not a violent man, but looking back on this now, it sounds pretty much like domestic abuse. I never would have thought that at the time though, as...well...he just wasn't the type to abuse, and wasn't the type to be abused, which is I suppose what Bamba was saying.
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posted
I once did a judo throw on VP. VP is the best person ever if you want to practice judo, because she weighs about 2 stone. It was a fantastic throw, at any rate, she flipped right over my hip, feet arcing through the air and came to a thudding halt on the grass. A spectacular moment. Anyway - it doesn't count as domestic abuse because we weren't going out at the time. I wasn't even angry with her either: I just wanted to see the look on her face.
Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
posted
There was some study that was published a couple of weeks ago that said the thing that splits people up most these days is "inappropriate friendships".
On the increase because it's more common for men and women to be platonic friends these days, there are elements of emotional infidelity involved. Particularly if you talk about things with your 'friend' that you may not talk about with your partner. It's usually a work or work-related colleague, so there's that much in common. It induces break-up not just because your partner feels you're being unfaithful emotionally or suspects that you actually are being unfaithful physically, but also because this 'friendship' can provide a degree of emotional support that can help you leave a relationship you've got bored with or isn't working for some reason. Whereas if you didn't have that you might be more inclined to hang on to the relationship you've got.
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