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» TMO Talk » The Dead » and for my next trick, i shall discover a cure for cancer (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: and for my next trick, i shall discover a cure for cancer
discodamage
Again with the bagels ?
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okay. so i lost like, 2 stone in weight last year. last year i was fat. this year i am not fat. yay me.

what i wanna know is when i get to stop being an ex-fat chick.

i bumped into two people today. these are people i see on, say a monthly basis. my weight stabilised to within about a 7 pound margin a year ago and im still getting 'you look so good! youve lost so much weight! well done!' what am i supposed to say? its supposed to be a compliment, but its so not! for a start, losing weight really isnt fucking rocket science. you just stop eating lard. okay, thats a massive oversimplification, because if it was that easy, i wouldnt have been overweight for so long; noone would be. but still, its like, for fucks sake. i have not discovered the aids vaccine here. i just lost weight. please save your excitement for something worthy! and its so totally buying into this concept that your weight is what you are, and that there is merit in being thin, and none in not being so. and i want to say so, but i cant.

one of the major problems i have always had was seperating my size from my worth as a person. and im finally, slowly, like a tiny little snail on ketamine,
g e t t i n g t h e r e. and this constant, never ending reinforcement of the idea that i have achieved, and done well, and struggled to fit in with the idea that overweight= satan... its playing with my cocking equilibrium.

its lovely hearing that you look good. and i believe it! but when its still, endlessly, tied into the fact that i shed a load- and therefore by extension, looked shit before, lets not forget that bit- its not happening. its an uncompliment, and a really boring topic of conversation, besides. i dont want to talk about my weight any more. how do i politely start saying to people, 'dude. its not really that big a deal. i just. lost. weight'?

[ 17 August 2003: Message edited by: discodamage ]

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EXETER- movement of Jah people.


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by discodamage:
how do i politely start saying to people, 'dude. its not really that big a deal. i just. lost. weight'?

You've never really struck me as a woman who has trouble saying what she feels.

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member #28


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discodamage
Again with the bagels ?
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yeah, well, if someones complimenting you with the best of intentions, then it seems bad form to turn round and reply, 'thanks, but from my point of view everything youve just said is not only deeply rooted in dodgy societal visions of beauty but also has the side effect of reinforcing certain issues i have about my physical form. but no, really, thanks.'

see? now i feel bad cos i can remember how many times ive had the exact same conversation im talking about with people on here. its a compliment! i should take it as such! but its a compliment that works on some really fucked up levels, is all.

[ 17 August 2003: Message edited by: discodamage ]

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EXETER- movement of Jah people.


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Carter
Taller than Bandy ?
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If you're going to get reeeally late-night worried about interview tomorrow slightyl pissed pedantic about it, all compliments inhabit a dubious comparative region of psychology.

"You look well" ....and normally I'm consumptive?

"You look slim"....ditto porcine?

"You look tanned"...etc

I dunno. I find it hard to take compliments too, but could it be the fact that you're still overly aware of your previous weight?

FWIW, you looked cracking last Friday. Feel free to slap me.


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Gail
Gives baby boys intravenous nicotine
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This rings so many bells with me. I lost three stone a few years ago (and put it all back on again, fuckwit) and got all the same sort of comments with very similar reactions.

I also got 'do you feel better for it?' - well no, I got fat slowly, I got thinner slowly, I didn't actually feel that bad (health-wise or emotionally, or whatever way I was supposed to feel not-good) about it in the first place, I just thought it'd be better for my long term health if I lost weight. Grr, there is no fucking way of dealing with it with out looking ungracious.

And I'm going for my gym induction tomorrow, lol.


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Physic
Digital PIMP !
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Could be worse, the last comment of that nature I got was a friend who I hadn't seen for months telling me 'ha, you've put on weight you fat f*cker', guess it served me right for mocking his jelly-belly when we house-shared really...
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discodamage
Again with the bagels ?
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quote:
Originally posted by Carter:

I dunno. I find it hard to take compliments too, but could it be the fact that you're still overly aware of your previous weight?


oh, yes, thats certainly part of it. but not all, and this is my point. its only when the connection between past and present is overt that that it fucks me off, and only when its from people who have seen me on a fairly regular basis and keep on and on about it regardless. compliments are nice. compliments that are repeatedly tied into the opposite of what youre complimenting about are... kind of, not.

and yeah, gail, 'do you feel better for it?' well, duh, i can buy nicer clothes, i can walk up hills quicker. am i happier because of it? fuck off. its that whole 'i lost 19 stone and it changed my life!' bullshit. this is completely upside down- the weight loss may be symptomatic or resultant of a change in your life, but it is not the cause of that change. so much weird, pervasive shit that goes on- just because you stop eating chips for six months. am i necessarily happier, fitter, more productive? no. i can buy skirts from boxfresh. yippee.

but really, apart from changing my patterns of conspicous consumption, losing weight has not changed my life a jot. im the same person, just a thinner version. it is the assumption that losing weight = a marked improvement in your being that fucks me off.


quote:
FWIW, you looked cracking last Friday. Feel free to slap me.

thankyou.

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EXETER- movement of Jah people.


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Gail
Gives baby boys intravenous nicotine
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Yes. This time I am mostly motivated to lose weight by the prospect of shopping in Hennes. Fuck the rest of it.
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discodamage
Again with the bagels ?
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well then you go girl!


edited because i forgot these-

[handbag]and also a smiley in a gym costume.[/handbag]

[ 18 August 2003: Message edited by: discodamage ]

i didnt just slag handbag by the way. you imagined that.

[ 18 August 2003: Message edited by: discodamage ]

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EXETER- movement of Jah people.


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ben

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At the Theatre Bar meat about six people said they thought I'd "lost weight" when I had, in fact, gained weight since the last time I'd seen them (up to a whopping 14st10Lbs, fact fans!). Since then I've been running and doing Barabara Currie yoga ("This is a real waistline whipper!" "Yoga *will* get you there, you just have to believe in it!" etc etc) and Slimming-World-green-day-free-fooding like a motherfucker.

Net result: I've lost nine of your English pounds in just three weeks! Me! Amazing! That was me, Barry Bethel etc...

Did anyone say anything at the MoskvaMeat? Did they fuck as like. Not even after they were prompted. In fact, certain people even made "reassuring" comments about how my big fat fucking beergut was "actually quite sexy".

I can't win!


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Boy Racer
This man has no twinkie !
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I know exactly what you mean about the back handed compliments. Like, the "oh, well done" thing. It can seem more than faintly patronising.
When I did my last short-lived fitness thing in 2000 and dropped alot of body-fat (weight-loss is not the thing to judge), by cutting down on a bit of lard in my diet and excercising regularly, I got lots of the oh well done stuff, and it does get annoying. Because like you say it's not that hard, it takes some effort, but in my case not a huge one. Thanks, but the ability to run a bit and not eat crisps and kit-kats isn't something I put on my CV. Can we instead talk about what books we've been reading lately please?
But our western obession with fat is a societal thing that is all consuming, and until we can get past general notions of uberslim as attractive then we are always going to be faced with this kind of thing.
It's annoying, but hardly the end of the world.
And you certainly didn't look bad before Disco.

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Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...

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d666
I'd like to conform with the masses
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
[QB]big fat fucking beergut was "actually quite sexy". [QB]

i'll tell the truth. i hate beerguts. i am currently trying to shed a couple of kilos. due to inactivity due to work related work. and being fed to mr creosote levels.

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i was there. i was there.
i've never been wrong.


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by Boy Racer:
But our western obession with fat is a societal thing that is all consuming, and until we can get past general notions of uberslim as attractive then we are always going to be faced with this kind of thing.
It's annoying, but hardly the end of the world.

I find it a bit perverse that two people who explicitly lost weight in order to be more attractive, I'm sure partly to yourselves and also to other people, are the two people who are complaining most vocally about the fact that slim = more socially desirable than fat.

You and Disco have perpetuated this idea. Are you saying you were an unwilling victim of a social syndrome, ie. you didn't want to lose weight but felt pressured to do it? I just don't see where you're coming from in losing weight for what seem "cosmetic" reasons, talking about the process in public then suggesting that "society" talks too much about how laudable it is to lose weight? You really seem to be having it both ways -- subscribing to the ideal, then moaning about it.

I am aware that I sound a bit harsh so I'd like to make it clear that I don't mean any personal criticism -- I mean to attack your argument not you.

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kovacs

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I'm off now so I shall post up the thoughts I was preparing for my rejoinder to Boy Racer's response!

I'm the sort of fellow who, when he mentions "going on a diet", "doing some exercise" or "losing my belly" to anyone, gets told "you don't have to do any of that, you skinny runt". Being 6'1 with what seems a natural predisposition to slimness, I almost seem to offend people when I try to get in better shape. Luckily for you though, you don't see me slumping topless in a chair with a bicycle inner-tube cushioning and concealing the lower two segments of my nascent six-pack.

So yes, I certainly subscribe to beauty myths and spend a fair amount of time and money trying to cling onto what looks I had in my 20s -- "tae bo", mail-order chest expanders, Anti-Wrinkle Q10 Plus with CoEnzymes plus R.


The difference is between that and the attitude I'm puzzling about and criticising -- and this also includes McAndrew's approach of why do I have to live up to crippling societal conformity, my hair looks gorgeous today I'm such a god-boy -- is that I'm not complaining about the "pressures" that encourage me to make these efforts.

I don't feel I'm being forced to do sit-ups, even though the truth is I wouldn't have thought of it unless I was exposed to Calvin Klein underwear boxes with rock-face stomachs, and fitsters walking around town topless with their abs on parade. I know I'm sacrificing time, or money, to attempt to achieve an effect, and that it's a conscious decision. And to be honest, I'm not at all sorry that these "pressures" do prompt me to put in some effort and make myself look a bit better.

Anyway, I'm off for a manicure -- a "mani", as I saw it called on Will and Grace -- so I think my point is proven.

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Boy Racer
This man has no twinkie !
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Dude, where did I put that I did it to be more attractive? I did it as part of an overall "fitness" thing because I was starting to not be able to enjoy my hedonistic lifestyle quite as much I as would have liked. I wanted to be fitter so I could party harder and longer.
Losing body-fat was a not entirely undesirable by-product of this.
What was annoying about people's comment's was that it was their stuff / perceptions not mine.
And anyway since when did "It's annoying, but hardly the end of the world" count as "complaining most vocally" tae-bo-boy?
By the way where are you doing the tae-bo again? I feel another fitness drive coming on.

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Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...

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StevieX
Gimmie the keys, I'll drive
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I'm probably going to sound way off beam here, or something, and expect to be roundly slapped down.

For the record, I am not talking from a skinny person perspective, or an 'if I did it, so can you' perspective. Weight control (or rather '%Body Mass = fat' control) issues pretty much since the age of ten (I'm 32). I weigh sixteen and a half stone - but have a 34 inch waist with no overhang!

Anyway, to business. I would always seperate the worth of a person from their appearance, but why do we all seem so scared to say that, on balance, FAT IS BAD. That's not 'fat people are bad' but that 'being fat is an inherently bad thing'.

Let's examine the evidence. You are generally putting increased strain on heart, lungs, circulation, joints. It increases your chances of any number of nasties; strokes, coronary heart disease, diabetes, a range of cancers. The list goes on. Being fat reduces your life expectancy and has the power to impact upon your quality of life. It's one of the few western diseases which could be effectively cured (as Disco said, it's not rocket science). Yet, many people will die prematurely today, tomorrow and the day after that because they were too fat for too long.That's nothing short of a tragedy. That's not to ignore the psychological roots of why many people overeat; I genuinely believe that the relationship some overweight (and indeed, chronically underweight) people have with food is akin to the relationship an addict has with drugs, or an alchoholic to booze.

None of the above mitigates the negative treatment and portrayal of the overweight, but I think that's a whole different area.

So, well done on your weight-loss, Disco.

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i wrote for luck - they sent me you


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Cherry
You!
Cut my eggs!
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Yes, DD - what you and Gail both said. Especially Gail: also 3 stones, also back on!

Kovacs, you have missed the point entirely. Which is a shame, as DD had already made it very concisely. The improvement (by current cultural standards) in appearance is often the result of positive changes in a person's well-being (let's not get too psychobabbledetailed here).

Not the result of a desperate struggle to achieve a happy life through weight loss, FFS! Like that really happens ....

As a slightly relevant aside, you know those champion slimmers: the ones who get their pictures in the press? You know how happy they always are? Well, they are happy. They have spend their miserable, chubby lives hating skinny people, and hating themselves, and they think that being slim and sexy is the only key to power. Male photographers & stylists love working those shoots, because the champion slimmers shag them (and everyone else!).

Something like 80% of them get divorced (the slimmers, not the photographers, who are already divorced). Slimming experts like to say this is because hubby couldn't face up the "confident, new" missus. Whereas in reality, he couldn't stand the self-centred, power-crazy unfaithful bitch his cuddly wife had become.

Anyway ... When I was thin, I h8ed the fact that people had so obviously been mainly perceiving me as fat before I lost the weight. Yeah, thanks a lot!!!

It's quite funny now: people say "You look well!"

Which is exactly what my granny used to say when she meant "You look fat!"

DD, assuming you don't want to lumber everyone with a socio-feminist diatribe on the politics of body image, I don't think there's much you can do. Just say thanks & move swiftly on.

However - when people insisted on pursuing the "How did you do it? You've done so well!" line of interrogation, I did tell them I don't think it's interesting. Just do more and eat less.

I may have lost a couple of friends, but if they care that much about that shit, hey. I don't miss them!

Well done, by the way!

Cxx
(2 kilos down and counting .... in a non-committal way, of course)

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I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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ben

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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry:
Something like 80% of them get divorced (the slimmers, not the photographers, who are already divorced). Slimming experts like to say this is because hubby couldn't face up the "confident, new" missus. Whereas in reality, he couldn't stand the self-centred, power-crazy unfaithful bitch his cuddly wife had become.

This is a massive generalisation and isn't really reflected in the experience of the people I've met who have been through this.


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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day.
Stupid commercialised crap
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My mother's idea of a compliment is to say "you've put on weight, isn't that nice!"
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Cherry
You!
Cut my eggs!
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quote:
Originally posted by ben:
This is a massive generalisation and isn't really reflected in the experience of the people I've met who have been through this.

Yes it is a massive generalisation. I thought that was obvious.

I should have made it even clearer that I was repeating gossip in order to support the general point about a widespread assumption that [a] being slim makes you happy, and [b] slim=sexy=power for women.

I don't have any empirical evidence of how widespread that assumption is, btw!

I have tediously strong views about all this shit. I'm glad you have happy slimmer friends, but I'd appreciate it if you don't get me started on this particular hobby horse .....

Cx

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I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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kovacs

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I can have no argument with Boy Racer's amiable response. I haven't done my kicking for 3 weeks now so am expecting it to punish me tonight -- it's down in Catford, at, strangely, a private school.

quote:
Originally posted by Cherry:

Kovacs, you have missed the point entirely. Which is a shame, as DD had already made it very concisely.


I'm not convinced that there can be "the point" about something subjective like personal satisfaction related to exercise and weight loss, so it's daft of you to act as though there is one concrete truth here that can be missed or summarised.

quote:
The improvement (by current cultural standards) in appearance is often the result of positive changes in a person's well-being (let's not get too psychobabbledetailed here).

By stopping short of any detailed psychological explanation, probably because you don't have one, you've only managed to produce a rash generalisation.

I didn't say that changes in "well-being" resulted in changes to physical shape, perhaps because I don't know how I would measure "well-being" in other people -- although you seem to have a method.

quote:

Not the result of a desperate struggle to achieve a happy life through weight loss, FFS! Like that really happens ....

You can rail against this idea all you like, but I didn't say it. What I did say was that I presumed Disco and BR had decided to lose weight to be more attractive to themselves and other people. OK, so Boy Racer tells me this wasn't his reason. I accept that I judged wrongly in his case, but that doesn't mean my idea was absurd.

I didn't say people struggled all their lives to lose weight in order to be happy. What I did assume is that people lost weight, in part, because they considered they would be more physically attractive to themselves/to others if they lost weight. This still doesn't seem an off-the-wall theory to me. As I said, it's why I want to lose weight, and it's why I exercise and go through other health & beauty routines -- because I will look better to myself as a result, and because I would like to be as physically attractive as I can reasonably be.


quote:
You know how happy they always are? Well, they are happy. They have spend their miserable, chubby lives hating skinny people, and hating themselves, and they think that being slim and sexy is the only key to power. Male photographers & stylists love working those shoots, because the champion slimmers shag them (and everyone else!).

Something like 80% of them get divorced (the slimmers, not the photographers, who are already divorced). Slimming experts like to say this is because hubby couldn't face up the "confident, new" missus. Whereas in reality, he couldn't stand the self-centred, power-crazy unfaithful bitch his cuddly wife had become.


Where
do
you
get
all
this
shit.

[ 18 August 2003: Message edited by: kovacs ]

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member #28


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kovacs

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By the way, I can wholly recommend a manicure at "Good Looks" in Blackheath. It gave me a definite sense of well-being, and I was finished off with an ingenious product called MAN-MATT.

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member #28

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Thorn Davis

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That sounds like the world's worst superhero.
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Boy Racer
This man has no twinkie !
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
finished off

Lol.

Amiably yours soft-lips.

Erm like, where in Catford specifically, and at what times and stuff does the kicking happen. Not that I wish to stalk you or anything but I'm semi-serious about the excercise thing again and wouldn't mind giving this a go?

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Some people stand in the darkness, afraid to step into the light...


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kovacs

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Let's do this by email when you give me your email address.

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member #28

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Cherry
You!
Cut my eggs!
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Where
do
you
get
all
this
shit.

Hello, Kovacs.

Re: slimmers of the year/ photographers/ etc: I confessed to repeating gossip! Such tales are rife amongst those whose work includes the photo shoots in question. They may be apocryphal, but I believe them.

Re: everything else:
Since I seem to have developed a talent for pissing people off just lately, I want to preface what follows with a clear, unambiguous statement that these are my opinions, based on my experiences. They are not the result of my academic studies, nor do I profess to know what other TMO members think ....

In my opinion, social pressure to fit in with our currently accepted norms of beauty is real and damaging. I believe that pressure to be thin is increasing - and there is, in fact, plenty of evidence of this: anorexia amongst small children has become a cause for concern, and it is now common amongst young men.

As ever, beauty equates to sexiness. If only thin is beautiful, then only thin is sexy. I believe that's balderdash but - in that - I'm well out od step with the majority of our society and the media that inform us.

If only thin is sexy, then being not-thin calls into question a large & important part of a person's worth and identity: their sexuality.

I consider that extremely damaging. It gets worse, however, because being not-thin is also presented to us as a sign of physical malfunction, poor health, disorganisation, incompetence and unintelligence along with other, irrationally detrimental, prejudices. I'm not talking about obesity, which is a health threat - although the other prejudices also apply in spades to obese people.

My view is that to judge a person's worth by their waist size is not only ludicrous but it causes a great deal of unhappiness, psychological damage and, of course, malnutrition and death amongst those who take it all to heart. Therefore, I intensely dislike any such pressures - and, most particularly, the way they are unthinkingly reinforced in fairly normal conversation.

I don't think anyone in our culture(s) is immune to those pressures. Kovacs, I was shocked to hear that you felt you needed to be thinner (because you are already very slim, and you are fit) - that you equate thinner with better-looking, and that you feel a strong desire to "look better" (because you are already good-looking). Your comments lead me to think that you have succumbed heavily to "lookist" ideals!

Any woman who's been down that road will be able to tell you there is no end to it .... once you start believing you need constant improvement, you will always be unhappy with your appearance. As you have attached high importance to your appearance, you will thus never be happy with yourself.

Reading beauty magazines makes you think you're ugly!

I probably need to repeat, here, that I'm not saying obese people don't need to diet, nor that we don't all benefit from basic levels of grooming. I'm talking about a potent form of social tyranny and I'm sure you are aware that I'm far from alone in my concerns.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that I had anorexia in my teens. I managed not to starve myself too badly, but battled with ongoing eating and body-image disorders until my thirties. I'm very proud of having overcome the problem so completely: in order achieve that, I had to do a hell of a lot of hard thinking and to formulate very firm views which go against our accepted cultural norms. I'm trying to express some of those views, concisely, here.

By the time I shifted the last of my (IMO) distorted ideas, I was 3 stone above my preferred weight. Over the next year - this is important - I lost the extra weight and became much fitter. This was not the result of dieting. It was the result of much-improved self-esteem and confidence.

The last paragraph is the start of the psychobabbledetail that you suppose I don't know anything about. I could go on for hours and this posts's already too long!

My point, for which I will not apologise, is that being thin doesn't make you happy! People think it does, but that is a lie they have been brainwashed into believing.

On the other hand, being happy does improve your personal confidence. The happier you are the better you will look, the better your body will function and so, if you needed to lose weight, you probably will.

I hope that clarifies things somewhat. My previous post was a bit of a burble, for which I apologise, but I don't think I deserved that amount of derision.

Cheers.
Cherry

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I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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kovacs

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I'm afraid I have only had time to skim your post, Cherry -- mainly for references to my name, as ever -- and thanks for your kind words. Sorry for calling your views "shit" but I meant your broad assertions based on nothing but gossip.

I do think I have subscribed to lookist ideals with regard to my own appearance. However, this doesn't mean I can never be happy, I don't think. Just because you'd always like to improve something in some way, doesn't mean you're not happy. My parents, for instance, seem to take a great deal of pleasure in moving into houses, doing them up over five years and then moving out just when they've got it perfect. It's fun and pleasurable to feel you are improving something, surely? Yes, it does mean that I don't feel I'm physically "perfect", but does anyone feel this?

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member #28


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Cherry
You!
Cut my eggs!
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
I don't feel I'm physically "perfect", but does anyone feel this?

Just a quick one - thanks for the reply, K - I feel the concept of good enough is sorely undervalued in our society!

It's a very useful way to be happy .... Just be good enough.

Next time your parents are bored, could you send 'em round here to finish this place off please? It's nowhere near good enough!

C

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I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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Physic
Digital PIMP !
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While I have to say I agree with much of what has been said here about societal pressures and the media contributing to a rising level of body-image related problems such as anorexia, I do feel its important that a distinction is drawn between losing weight because you feel you have to and losing weight because you want to because it makes you feel better about yourself (whether for of health or appearance reasons). I've never been fat, per se, I'm happy to say, I was always very active (gym, martial arts, etc) when younger and hence got away with eating what I wanted. What I do find annoying though is when I decide to be more careful in what I eat, and to get back to exercising more, to have people tell me 'oh but you don't need to lose weight!'. Such comments are, imo, missing the point entirely, I don't go to the gym because I feel I have to, I don't watch my beer intake because I have to, I do it because I want to look after my body and keep in shape, which surely is as valid as not worrying too much about your calorie intake if you're not inclined towards exercise and calorie watching. Just as theres a big distinction between being obese and just having a few curves, equally theres a big distinction between feeling pressured to look thin and just wanting to keep in shape.

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular you understand, its just something that personally I find is too often misunderstood/overlooked/whatever, by those who rail against the unreasonable body-image ideals we, as a society, seem to set ourselves..

hope that made sense...


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ben

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Women!

Am I the only person in this country who, whenever he chooses to buy a glossy magazine packed with aspirational images, isn't immediately afflicted with a poisonous sweat of self-loathing? I just don't accept this thing of we the public being spongelike, passive consumers having our personalities warped by the bollocks we see in magazines.

Tyranny? What the hell is tyrannical about walking into WHSmith and picking up a copy of Vogue? I think a bit of perspective is needed. No-one's getting shot in the back of the head after a kangaroo trial here - keep on abusing words in this manner and eventually they start to haemorrhage meaning.

The impulse to pay a compliment is generally a pretty innocent and well-meaning one - not a steely-eyed reinforcement of what The Man wants us all to think. Having myself recently received a public dressing-down for making as vile and creepy an insinuation as "You look great! You've lost weight, haven't you?", I'm coming to the conclusion that if a simple compliment is going to cause so much wailing and gnashing it probably isn't worth the hassle of making it.


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Modge
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Ben, I am saddened that you don't remember our Yoga/Pilates/Running conversation where we talked about long lean muscles and I commented upon your good posture... Maybe that doesn't count as commenting on your weight loss, but I meant that I thought you looked "better" for doing the yoga video etc.
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Cherry
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Cut my eggs!
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quote:
Originally posted by Physic:
I don't go to the gym because I feel I have to, I don't watch my beer intake because I have to, I do it because I want to look after my body ...

hope that made sense...



Of course it did!

Physic, you've just described a happy man who likes his body

quote:
Originally posted by ben:
Women!

Am I the only person in this country who, whenever he chooses to buy a glossy magazine packed with aspirational images, isn't immediately afflicted with a poisonous sweat of self-loathing?



No.

I'll ignore your sexist, cross smiley because you probably have pmt.

quote:
What the hell is tyrannical about walking into WHSmith and picking up a copy of Vogue?

Nothing, Ben! That should be obvious even to a half-thinking person with uncontrollable muscle spasms in the knee joint and typing fingers.

It's not picking up a magazine that causes problems: it's an unrelenting stream of images & exhortations. You know that's what I was talking about, I'm sure.

quote:
The impulse to pay a compliment is generally a pretty innocent and well-meaning one - not a steely-eyed reinforcement of what The Man wants us all to think.

The impulse to pay a compliment is innocent & well-meant, yes. My -er, proposal is as follows: "You've lost weight!" is thought to be, in itself, a compliment. That indicates that weight loss is desirable (and was, at least by implication, necessary in the individual case). Also that weight loss is a laudable achievement in itself. I query the automatic assumption that weight loss is all that bloody clever, and - even more so - that thinness is a highly desirable target.

quote:
Having myself recently received a public dressing-down for making as vile and creepy an insinuation as "You look great! You've lost weight, haven't you?"

Aha! Is that why you're reacting this way? It wasn't pmt??

Well, how rude to tell you off in public.

I retain a slender hope that my post/s might help indicate why "You look great!" is a more effective compliment without the rider.

How am I doing? Should I give up?

quote:
I'm coming to the conclusion that if a simple compliment is going to cause so much wailing and gnashing it probably isn't worth the hassle of making it.

Nah, don't conclude that! Each compliment adds to the sum of human happiness!

Just stop at "You look great!"

It might be worth noting that until quite recently .... ummm, while I was growing up, so maybe not that recently! .... it was considered very poor manners to comment on a person's physicality at all. You could say they looked good, or well, or that a garment suited them. But nothing specific. I sometimes wish we would go back to that - people were far less neurotic about appearances then.

Cx

Ben, I hope I have made sense.

--------------------
I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry:

It's a very useful way to be happy .... Just be good enough.

Well, we can't generalise, because I'm happy when I make some useful progress towards what I think is improvement on imperfection. Like today I walked for 90 mins, had a manicure and did an hour of that now-notorious "tae bo". I still think I've got a cushion of fat but I feel happy that I did those things.

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member #28


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Cherry
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Cut my eggs!
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
I still think I've got a cushion of fat but I feel happy

Aw, babes!!!!!

The "good enough" thing is a worthwhile thought, though. My belief (gosh, I'm prefacing like mad in this thread! Shows it's a thorny topic - maybe) is that human nature always drives us to improve ... however we perceive improvement. As a result, we will continue to improve, in our own ways, along our own paths, throughout our lives.

That's a given. Another of my beliefs (and prefaces!) is that we have a tendency to be driven by ideals imposed on us from outside sources. It's relatively easy to capitalise on the natural human urge towards self-improvement by introducing a construct that claims to offer a ready route to ... perfection. I'd bet my life that you've made a similar comment in a thread about self-improvement books, or some such.

To revive the concept of "good enough" is a fantastic way to regain your self confidence, critical faculties and your chosen personal ideals of improvement.

This has been said over and over by many of the more durable religions, philosophers et al. I believe that's so because it's fundamental common sense!

Kovacs, how do you feel about collaborating on a book called "You're good enough!" ?
[need a dollar-sign smiley here]

Cx

edited because being a great typist was never on my list of personal objectives

[ 18 August 2003: Message edited by: Cherry ]

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I love God! He's so deliciously evil!


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry:

Aw, babes!!!!!

Misquote! I didn't say "I feel happy" ie. with my "cushion of fat"; I was happy to have done something I could see as improvement.


quote:
To revive the concept of "good enough" is a fantastic way to regain your self confidence, critical faculties and your chosen personal ideals of improvement.

This has been said over and over by many of the more durable religions, philosophers et al. I believe that's so because it's fundamental common sense!


It's a fantastic way to excuse yourself for leaving everything the way it is, surely? Let's visit some everyday examples.

1. The Homeowner. This wall needs repainting. Ah, no, it's good enough for me! I'll leave it looking like damp dogshit.

2. The Student. This essay's a bit rough, it could use a redraft. Nope, it's good enough! I'll go and have a wank over my PS2.

3. The Kovacs. I do sit-ups and can't see my six-pack for fat. Still, that's good enough! I'll forget exercise and bury my face in a bowl of Jaffa Cakes.

quote:

Kovacs, how do you feel about collaborating on a book called "You're good enough!" ?


I don't think I'm good enough for your book, Cherry.

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member #28


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