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» TMO Talk » The Dead » The Evolution of Language. (Page 7)

 
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Author Topic: The Evolution of Language.
vikram

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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Thorn is right.

Say it ain't so.

[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: vikram ]


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d666
I'd like to conform with the masses
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quote:
Originally posted by discodamage:

coming from someone who just last week compared me to ben elton and joe pasquale in the space of 5 minutes i find this newfound moral fiber hard to give credence to.

yeah but you know. you loved it. the thought of being compared to the comic genius of that squeaky voiced "i've got a song that'll get on your nerves" spunkgobbet really rocked your world.

i have written that living will you know.

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i was there. i was there.
i've never been wrong.


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kovacs

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Thorn was right in that he was supporting my point.

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member #28

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Amy
Transatlantic temptress
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quote:
And the Finns, it would seem, shout ‘in the restaurant’ when they do something like hit their thumb with a hammer.

I might have to start saying this. It makes me giggle.


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mart
Wearing nothing but a smile
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
I might have to start saying this. It makes me giggle.

The Finnish word is ravintolassa. I'm not sure which is better, that or the English translation.

And Kovacs and Thorn are no doubt right; I really have no idea, and am also so hungover that I can't be bothered to look into it. So much for my working bank holiday.


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fish
Media Whore
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It's all gone hollew.
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ziggy
TMO Member
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quote:
Originally posted by discodamage:
- the first was in the essay from which i took my new tag. a special present to anyone who knows/can guess what or whom the essay was about.

Christopher Marlowe?

Do I get a present (a nice one please)?

[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: ziggy ]

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..so long and thanks for all the fish...


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AgeingGrace
Should know better.
Doesn't.
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quote:
Originally posted by discodamage:
this is the second time i have read the word 'coneycatcher' today- the first was in the essay from which i took my new tag. a special present to anyone who knows/can guess what or whom the essay was about.

Guess I] Davey Crockett.
Guess II]Kovacs

what's the prize, what's the prize???!!!

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b-but what does it mean?


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mart
Wearing nothing but a smile
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefanos:
I am told that the closest modern language to classical Latin is Portuguese in terms of pronunciation.

Forgot to pick up on this earlier.

According to Mario Pei, if you want to hear what ancient Latin sounded like you should listen to Lugudorese, an Italic dialect spoken in central Sardinia, which he says in many aspects is broadly unchanged from the Latin of 1,500 years ago.


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AgeingGrace
Should know better.
Doesn't.
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
A much more interesting swearer than Shakespeare is Ben Johnson, who came up with choice phrases ‘Whoreson base fellow’, whoreson coney-catching rascal’, ‘by my fackins faith’ and (my favourite) ‘I am the rankest cow that ever pissed’.

Toppe poste, whoreson Mart! Astounding it is, indeede, that ye haffe so wel learned the colourfulle argotes of te passt.

OK, late-middle english isn't one of my best languages. Insults are great, though, aren't they?

I've always been fond of those old (well, 50 years old) French colloquialisms: "Vas t'enculer de mouches" and "Con de fils de putain des chiens!", which is still very cathartic in a traffic jam. In Marseilles.

I love those websites (which I can't be bothered to look up - I'm tired; sorry) that list insults from around the world. The Chinese (supposedly) one: "May you live an interesting life" seems to be a curse visited upon me & everyone I know ... but I'm sure you can come up with some far more interesting ones! Doesn't Arabic lend itself to some cracking curses?? .......

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b-but what does it mean?


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mart
Wearing nothing but a smile
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There's a somewhat apocryphal Spanish swear: Me cago en las tetas de la Virgen María para que el Niño Jesús chupe mierda, which translates as "I crap on the tits of the Virgin Mary so that Baby Jesus sucks shit", but no one would ever actually utter that. They do have the colourful "I shit on your dead ancestors" though, which I like, as well as lots of one about taking it up the arse.

Conversely, the word coño (cnut) isn't really a swear at all, and most informal conversations in Spanish are dotted with the word. Which is nice. Though of course, these things are always relative, and if I looked you in the eye and said, calmly, tu coño (for, er, whatever reason), then I would indeed be referring to your netherparts in the rudeliest rudie way there is.


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The Dixie Flatline
TMO Member
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I don't know the Chaucer examples you refer to here -- I was trying to think of one in The Wife of Bath, which I think is quoniam or something -- but you can't argue that he was using the words neutrally. Surely they were meant to raise a dirty laugh; which is different from using them as a deeply offensive insult, but it still implies they had a taboo power.


examples of specific Tales using such language are The Merchant's Tale and The Miller's Tale, the latter a bawdy story from beginning to end.

There was no taboo power in the words themselves, but possibly in the actions involving the use of such words - at the time there simply were no other words to describe sex or sexual organs.


Direct reference to sexual organs would certainly not be found in the 'courtly love' stories typical of the era, but in medieval times it was common to name dark or narrow streets, or streets where prostitutes congregated, after sexual organs - 'Queynte Street' was a frequently occurring place name until the 17th Century when changing sensibilities caused them to be renamed.


this practice would suggest that there was no taboo about such words in Chaucer's time.


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Black Mask

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Didn't we compile a fuckrees slang dicktionary before?

Shorteyes.

Monkey.

Carpet.

Double-carpet.

Hydromatic.

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sweet


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scrawny
One Mojito, two Gin and Tonics, Three Bacardi Lime Sodas, and a couple of pints of Stella please.
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:

Conversely, the word coño (cnut) isn't really a swear at all, and most informal conversations in Spanish are dotted with the word. Which is nice. Though of course, these things are always relative, and if I looked you in the eye and said, calmly, tu coño (for, er, whatever reason), then I would indeed be referring to your netherparts in the rudeliest rudie way there is.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I always found it really interesting that most swearwords associated with the female body in Italian can be used in highly complementary ways. Figa, or gnoccha (Bolognese equivalent - I think the Romans use patata which is pretty cute) means pussy (roughly translated), and when directed at a woman is a completely acceptable way of saying something along the lines of "What a honey". Even though what they're actually saying is "what a great piece of pussy". Che figa is also a way of saying "Nice one", or "how lucky". It amazed me that a gender-divided language enveloped in a culture traditionally considered molto maschilista could prescribe such positive significance to "female" swearing, whereas English seems to be fairly well-balanced. Cock, dickhead, and pussy are all fairly negative, but **** remains arguably the most offensive.

With regard to Bamba's point about the word **** being hated by all women, I don't hate it, I just hate the connotations attached to it. The word itself is not a porblem, it just bothers me that if somebody really wanted to offend me, they'd use a word that describes a thing that I don't consider sufficiently negative. Call me a cock on the other hand, I'd be riled.

(Afterthought - the best swearword in Italian is without a doubt spaccamarrone, which means nutcracker - as in, "you're twisting my melons, man". Particularly when said with the Bolognese "s" which is more of a "ssshh" sound. Try it, it's unbelievably satisfying, and rememnber all double consonants in Italian have to be really leaned into. Ssshpaccamarrone. God I love the Italians.)

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...because that's the kind of guy you are.


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Stefanos
Biggus Dickus
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Forgot to pick up on this earlier.

According to Mario Pei, if you want to hear what ancient Latin sounded like you should listen to Lugudorese, an Italic dialect spoken in central Sardinia, which he says in many aspects is broadly unchanged from the Latin of 1,500 years ago.


Ooo! I'll have to let Mrs Stefanos in on this - she'll be very interested in that. Saying that, she is good at cursing me in (ancient Gothic).

Forgot the spelling but say `Gebrineth in hailja'! It means burn in hell and is about as insulting as you can get.

That'll be because the major source for Gothic is a translation in the Bible...

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Essex boy in exile.


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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by AgeingGrace:
The Chinese (supposedly) one: "May you live an interesting life" seems to be a curse visited upon me & everyone I know ...

I like that one too, though I think it's the even more subtle, "May you live in interesting times" that I've heard before.

Going back to apostrophes if I may for a moment, the local paper here had an article about the elections where it consistently refered to the Tory Party as "the Tory's", as in "can the Tory's win any seats tomorrow?"

They didn't do this to the Liberal Democrats, or even the Lib Dems which could, I suppose justify an apostrophe. Is "Tory" short for something, like "photo" so that you write "photo's"? Or have they made some dreadful cock-up.


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kovacs

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I don't think it is OK to write "photo's" for the plural. Photo is an abbreviation but as we don't write "photo'" for the singular, there is no reason to have apostrophe "s" for the plural.

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member #28

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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day.
Stupid commercialised crap
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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
Or have they made some dreadful cock-up.
Yes. Quite apart from the fact that the plural of Tory is Tories. Write and tell them. The Times's proofreading is getting seriously bad too. Grizzly for grisly and other errors.

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: Octavia ]


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kovacs

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The Times has also stopped using the apostrophe before "'bus", which is pretty lax.

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Stefanos
Biggus Dickus
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
The Times has also stopped using the apostrophe before "'bus", which is pretty lax.

I know. And they use the word `phone'.

When it of course should be `electric telephone'....

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Essex boy in exile.


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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by Octavia:
Quite apart from the fact that the plural of Tory is Tories.

Yes, I'd always assumed that. It's just that
the mistake was consistent throughout the article, so I wondered if it was some clever-clever editor who knew that "Tory's" was correct and was showing off. I've googled and can't seem to find the origin of the name Tory anywhere, or Whig for that matter. Seems pretty old though - being referred to in 1558 or something.

As for "photo's" and "photos", I think this is one of those cases where the abbrieviation has, as Kovacs implies, become so commonplace that the apostrophe is basically redundant, but both options seem perfectly acceptable to me in that particular case.

Same with "bus" with or without the leading apostrophe. And who ever calls a Taxi a "taximeter motor charabanc"? Apart from my Mad Uncle Dave.


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by dang65:
As for "photo's" and "photos", I think this is one of those cases where the abbrieviation has, as Kovacs implies, become so commonplace that the apostrophe is basically redundant, but both options seem perfectly acceptable to me in that particular case.

I wasn't implying this, really -- I was saying that as nobody uses (or has ever used, in my experience) photo' for photograph, to use photo's for the plural is just plain wrong. I suspect this is one of those cases where someone thought "photos" looked too much like it should be pronounced "photoss", like Lesbos, and so fumblingly decided it needed an apostrophe.

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member #28


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Hippychick
Could I join in your reindeer games ?
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photo's = belongs to the photo
photos = more than one photo

I just don't understand why people can't grasp these simple concepts


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dang65
it's all the rage
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippychick:
photo's = belongs to the photo
photos = more than one photo

I just don't understand why people can't grasp these simple concepts


But people say "photograph" all the time. It's not antiquated or redundant, like "discoteque" for example, so "photo" is still a genuine abbrieviation isn't it? What I mean is that both "photo's" and "photos" are acceptable and neither are technically incorrect. IMHO, although I really don't lose sleep on this.


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mart
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The OED says that Tory is:

quote:
[Prob. f. Ir. toraidhe a pursued person, a highwayman...

and then goes on to explain that historically it was

quote:
Any of the Irish people dispossessed by English settlers who became outlaws in 17th-cent. Ireland.

After that it jumps to meaning the opposite of a Whig in British parliamentary goings-on*.

So, not much help then.

*Does this need a hyphen?


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Ringo

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it's like conserva-tory innit
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Hippychick
Could I join in your reindeer games ?
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Apostrophe usage:

1) Abbreviation

examples - Robert's going to the pub

shortening Robert is going

and - 'bus, 'phone

shortening omnibus and telephone respectively

2) Possession

example - John's PC was playing up

shortening John his PC

only applies to proper nouns, thus 'yours' 'its' do not include an apostrophe.

Strange rules apply for proper nouns ending in an 's' e.g. St Thomas - possession should properly be demonstrated by a second 's' i.e. St Thomas's, however I think I have seen usage where both rules 1 & 2 apply (abbreviation & possession) in which case you would get St Thomas'. However this may just be laziness on the part of signwriters.

Possessive plurals - apostrophe is at the end of the word:

The posters' brains were becoming scrambled

I think there is an exception where the plural is itself a collective noun, but I may be wrong:

The girl was late, and followed the school's regulations by reporting to the office

Clear? If any of the above is wrong please can one of the English teachers (StevieX?) correct it.

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: Hippychick ]


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by Hippychick:
and - 'bus, 'phone

shortening omnibus and telephone respectively


Yes, and this was the argument -- which I don't subscribe to, but which I find interesting -- about "photograph". If it's abbreviated to photo, there should perhaps be an apostrophe after the "o", for the singular. (Which would excuse "photo's" for plural, if you accepted the argument).

But surely nobody does this.

quote:
example - John's PC was playing up

shortening John his PC


Thorn suggested this wasn't a shortening of "John his PC" but "Johnes PC", I assume arguing that English used to work like the German genitive.

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member #28


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Samuelnorton
"that nazi guy"
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippychick:
photo's = belongs to the photo
photos = more than one photo

I just don't understand why people can't grasp these simple concepts


Because the education system in this country is bollocks. Teaching children the basics of punctuation and "grammer" (the continual misspelling of which is unbelievable in itself) is no longer fashionable. It is far better, as far as those with the power to decide these things are concerned, to have young people writing "creatively", with no regard to how it actually looks to the critical eye.

Not long ago I read an article by one such educationalista, who suggested that it was perfectly reasonable for children to eschew formal rules of grammar, as long as they were able to express themselves phonetically.

The perfect way to create a nation of monkeys, IMO. Which would suit the current government down to the ground, natch.

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"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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Colenski
If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith
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quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Because the education system in this country is bollocks.

True, it can also be the way lot of people have been brung up. Perhaps a little pikey influence along the way.

--------------------
The wise have no motives;
Fools put themselves in bondage.


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mart
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To be fair, such mistakes also happen surprisingly often in Spanish, which is about as phonetic a language as you can get, and despite all schoolchildren being taught years of grammar. I see it all the time: H's (which are silent) being added where they shouldn't, mixing up B's and V's (which are pronounced the same), words missed out (normally a, meaning "to", and where the next word starts with an A), even the occasional sloppy declination of past participles. And most people don't have a clue about accents (which denote stress rather than pronunciation).

So it aint not just a brittish fing.


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Samuelnorton
"that nazi guy"
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quote:
Originally posted by Colenski:
True, it can also be the way lot of people have been brung up. Perhaps a little pikey influence along the way.

Ahem. I'm not going to talk about pikeys.

--------------------
"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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Colenski
If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:

So it aint not just a brittish fing.


The same happens with the Dutch, Theres a more educated newspaper called the NRC, but only 30% of the population seem to be able to read it. The amusing thing is here everybody seems to have their own opinion about a grammatical rule but it constantly changes and is managed by the Belgians. Plus, they speak completely differently to how they write.

--------------------
The wise have no motives;
Fools put themselves in bondage.


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ziggy
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Thorn is right about apostrophe s coming from Old English (Germanic) inflections, as do all our current inflections, including plurals. Respect.

There have been complaints about poor education being to blame for ‘bad’ English for centuries, most especially since the Early Modern English period when prescriptivism really got going. Invented spellings which obeyed some rule of supposedly ‘good’ grammar based upon Latin or Greek words; invented rules of grammar and all of that sort of thing. Now we laud people’s ability to adhere to many of those invented rules. It is normal to make value judgements based upon things like the use of language; on the other hand, language doesn’t stay still so how can we expect ‘correct’ English all the time? We would all be speaking or writing some previous form of English otherwise.

There seems to be something intrinsically difficult about the apostrophe s which means that in spite of education, the young and some adults simply cannot grasp it. It has been hanging on a long time now, in spite of that. Mart explaining how similar errors happen with Spanish would suggest these sorts of rules are hard to follow before a certain level of ability, rather than education.

The daftest use of the apostrophe I ever saw was a handwritten sign which read: Buy your Xma’s cards here.

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..so long and thanks for all the fish...


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Because the education system in this country is bollocks. Teaching children the basics of punctuation and "grammer" (the continual misspelling of which is unbelievable in itself) is no longer fashionable.


This fits your slightly warped, Littlejohnian view of the world, but I don't believe it entirely holds water. For a start, I doubt you have any direct experience of the current education system. I also doubt that primary schools are full, as you seem to imply, of young men wearing one earring and capri pants deciding the syllabus according to this season's whimsical style, and black earth mothers encouraging kids to write in Ebonics to express their inner voice.

I obviously went to primary school before you, quite a few decades ago, and I wasn't taught grammatical rules in English. I don't know when your golden age of grammatical teaching was, before the fashionable trendies got into our comprehensive schools and stopped educating kids the old way, but you would have to date it back to the 1950s or 60s at the latest to match with my experience.

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member #28


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