Astromariner
Going the right way for a smacked bottom
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
quote:Originally posted by Astromariner: This is why I think that the law as it stands isn't all that inaccurate a reflection of many people's world view.
I won't say this is deluded. More naïve.
This sort of opinion can only be based on one's own orbit, and who one chooses to have in their immediate circle.
Dude, you've just totally reiterated what I said in my first post! I can't see where you disagree with me. I say: "just because you hang around with a bunch of liberals, doesn't mean everyone's a liberal" - or words to that effect, and you say exactly the same thing. What's your point?
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: But when they come out on the street and hand out leaflets to kids, or what you see two male coppers at it in an episode of The Bill - for no other reason than some politically correct imbecile wants to spice up what should be a police show with an unnecessary "gay storyline" - I just think "No. Not here".
How can you say that that story is unneccesary? I mean, for one thing The Bill isn't just about cop stories - it's delved into characters' private lives for years now. I mean, storylines are neccessary because otherwise the show would just be rambling, unconnected scenes for half an hour.
O I don't know. Whenever Snorton starts posting I just feel like someone's repeatedly slowly hitting me with a bag of sand. You know how some posters can invigorate you when you start arguing with them? And make you think? Snorton always makes me feel really tired. I suppose It's always the way when you're arguing with someone beneath you.
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quote:Originally posted by Boy Racer: At least have the decency to a: not speak for others, b: say specifically what you mean.
My point was that anyone's personal opinion on "what the majority" thinks are always going to be shaped by the views of those around you. There's no need to bring up points that are essentially irrelevant.
I wasn't "speaking for anyone", merely stating that most of my friends hold views that I believe Astro wouldn't necessarily agree with. As for being more specific, I could have rambled on at length on how many of my friends believe in capital punishment, corporal punishment at schools, rolling back of gay legislation, etc. - all of which I am quite sure Astro and most liberals would object to - but it simply isn't relevant to the main point.
quote:Yes, well there are lots of things that we could call traditional Christian values, that have no place a modern civilised society.
Yeah, blah blah. But what is a "modern civilised society", BR? My interpretation of this concept is a place where you can go about and do your job and raise your family without hindrance. Do you agree, or is your idea of what is a modern civilised society different from mine? We probably share the same belief in the concept itself, but diverge when it comes to the interpretation of this concept. Not that I wan't to speak for you, of course.
quote:No I'm sure you can think of other ways of disposing of them.
That's my point. I wouldn't. I would just prefer if they were to shut up and get on with it.
quote:Or you could see homosexuality as a natural part of human sexuality and accept that it exists happily rather than regarding it or it's practice as dirty or abhorrent.
Whether I see it as dirty or abhorrent is beside the point. Or are you trying to talk for me here? I see it as unnatural, end of. Blame my Christian upbringing, if you want. After all, we are the freaks these days, no?
quote:Queers do this alot round your way do they? Because I've never seen this happen once.
Oh, haha. I am referring to the campaign by Peter Tatchell and his minions to bring homosexual "teaching" into the classroom. And a campaign by the LGB Society while I was at university, where they paraded on the concourse - a public throughway - and handed out campiagn leaflets to mothers with kids, and even some of the schoolkids themselves. We responded with water, flour and eggs, and thankfully they retreated back into the Union building. Of course, we wouldn't have had a problem if they had decided to stay in the Union building in the first place.
quote:God forbid writers should choose to represent 10% of the population in a storyline.
Well, no wonder the Met is having trouble recruiting. People must be thinking it's full of fucking poofs. 10% of the population my eye.
quote:Originally posted by Astromariner: Dude, you've just totally reiterated what I said in my first post! I can't see where you disagree with me. I say: "just because you hang around with a bunch of liberals, doesn't mean everyone's a liberal" - or words to that effect, and you say exactly the same thing. What's your point?
Shit. Maybe it's my rightwing-tinted specs, but I didn't see the "in" before "accurate" the first when when looking at your post.
*Shuffles away, sheepishly*
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quote: Oh, haha. I am referring to the campaign by Peter Tatchell and his minions to bring homosexual "teaching" into the classroom. And a campaign by the LGB Society while I was at university, where they paraded on the concourse - a public throughway - and handed out campiagn leaflets to mothers with kids, and even some of the schoolkids themselves. We responded with water, flour and eggs, and thankfully they retreated back into the Union building. Of course, we wouldn't have had a problem if they had decided to stay in the Union building in the first place.
I suppose the aim of this was to promote education, and therefore understanding and therefore to put an end to prejudice, fear and victimisation. I can't see that there's anything wrong with that.
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Shit. Maybe it's my rightwing-tinted specs, but I didn't see the "in" before "accurate" the first when when looking at your post.
*Shuffles away, sheepishly*
Is it just my perception, or is Snorton illiterate?
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: And a campaign by the LGB Society while I was at university, where they paraded on the concourse - a public throughway - and handed out campiagn leaflets to mothers with kids, and even some of the schoolkids themselves. We responded with water, flour and eggs, and thankfully they retreated back into the Union building. Of course, we wouldn't have had a problem if they had decided to stay in the Union building in the first place.
Wow, you sure gave those schoolkids an admirable example. Of how to be a bully. I'm sure all the mothers were grateful.
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quote:Originally posted by Louche: Lol at Snorton bitten on every paw by baying liberals.
Proof that this place isn't what it used to be thought, don't you think? At least Ben wouldn't just jump in there for the sake of it.
But then o, he probably would.
I like threads like this; they break up the tedium of editing webpages and guiding customers through the Outlook email set process. Every time I want a comic relief break, I just click on Life and hit refresh. Thanks, people!
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Louche's loll-comment and Raz's phucked eyes combined to make me gulp-snort unattractively and choke. Normally my laugh out louds are restrained to a brief smile. Not this time!
edit: Ahh! Helen Back's prejudice thread has brought new joy to the forum!
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If Samuelnorton is unable to cope with reality then of course he's going to oppose things that threaten his own interpretation of it. And this is why this argument can never be won. Whereas liberals can back up their arguments with notions of freedom, choice, and human rights, norton can only really back his up with a God, mystical ideas of "right" and "wrong" being somehow naturally inherent, and personal predjudices that have no rational basis, like his dislike of Jews. There's a sense of historical continuation in Samuels ideas, which is probably why he's so interested in history. In the discipline of history, you have the ability to re-interpret the past and therefore sure up your own idea of the present. Samuel here, as we know, is interested in historical revisionism, and this goes hand in hand with, I'm guessing, a kind of revulsion at the way that things have turned out. Don't get me wrong, I'm as disturbed as the next man about the way things are, but I would consider the problems that we face to be a result of people like Samuel who are unable to cope with the last sixty years of reality, rather than liberals who are trying to build a world where personal freedom is becoming more and more of a reality around many areas of the planet.
There really is no point telling somebody who is squeamish about the facts of life that they are, in fact, "wrong". I'm aware that my own idea of 'fact' is again just another interpretation, but I belive it to be correct because I believe that humans should be able to interact with as much of the world and each other in as many ways as possible, with each individual being equally as important. Opportunity and choice should be human rights, not just restricted to a lottery of where you were born and who you were born to. I believe that these things are good and right because they afford true dignity and chance for happiness to everybody who lives by them. They may not be tangible in the way things currently are, but our civilizations are young, they have links to but are not anchored in history, and there are a million ways in which application of these kinds of ideas can help people.
Well, I could go on, but it isn't about me. There just seems little point in arguing directly with somebody like Rick, as you can't convince somebody of something that they fundamentally believe to be untrue. At least, I don't think you can, and you can't prove or disprove the basis of any moral system. We just have to hope that we can provide an education system that gives people an ability to actually think for themselves, and make judgements that are informed beyond dogmatic religious texts, cultural seperatism, nationalist ideology and most of all, the kind of ignorance that breeds reactionary fear.
Sorry, it's just that I've seen this argument with rick like a million times, and all it does is allow him to continue to live. We need to take back the screams - all the energy from the teenagers he's killed.
No offence, Rick.
[ 25.02.2004, 05:38: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: The only path is to accept that they are what they are, and hope that they keep it to themselves and do what they do in the privacy of their own homes, not post pictures of it on the internet and keep it out of the orbit of those who don't want to see or hear about that sort of shit. If they want to get up God-knows-what under their own roof, fine.
quote:Originally posted by Modge: Wow, you sure gave those schoolkids an admirable example. Of how to be a bully. I'm sure all the mothers were grateful.
Bullies? We had asked nicely on a number of occasions prior to the event for them to set up in the Union building. But did they listen? Nah, they brought the Union into it. Bullies. Shyeah, right.
The action took place after lunch, when most of the schoolchildren were back at school. We did have some support from the public gallery in the form of a few old grannies, though.
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quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: some fair points
But I like the way that he tries to co-opt a liberal rhetoric: according to Snorton, Christians are now 'freaks' because of liberal oppression. His values are, apparently, under threat. He must defend them with flour and eggs and then justify his bombardment of others by claiming that it is reasoned and thought through. I almost sympathise.
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: I see it as unnatural, end of. Blame my Christian upbringing, if you want. After all, we are the freaks these days, no?
quote:Originally posted by Kovacs, last week: (Raz), Ask whether an atheist who follows Christian values in every aspect of his life except for believing in GOD is "worse" than a Christian who goes to church for appearances and professes to have religious faith but in fact behaves contrary to every ethical guideline offered by JESUS.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Bullies? We had asked nicely on a number of occasions prior to the event for them to set up in the Union building. But did they listen? Nah, they brought the Union into it.
lol. I'm not sure who this "we" is. If it was a group of you and your friends then I ask what right did you have to dictate where they held their event? If it was a more official group of union representatives then I say you responded completely inappropriately.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Bullies. Shyeah, right.
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: some fair points
But I like the way that he tries to co-opt a liberal rhetoric: according to Snorton, Christians are now 'freaks' because of liberal oppression.
I didn't use the word "oppression". For a good example of this state of affairs though, you only need to witness the ridiculous reaction to Mel Gibson's film The Passion of Christ.
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quote:Originally posted by Modge: I'm not sure who this "we" is. If it was a group of you and your friends then I ask what right did you have to dictate where they held their event? If it was a more official group of union representatives then I say you responded completely inappropriately.
I and a couple of others represented the Conservative Society. Others with us included the Christian Society and (listen here, people!) the chairpersons of both the Jewish and Islamic societies. There was even a guy from the science society there, but I don't know why. I'd say the initial request was conducted in a civilised way. We simply requested that if the activity was supported by the Union - and not by the University itself, which it wasn't - we were well within our rights to ask them to hold it within the confines of the Union building. The Union got all heavy handed and made some official statement about not giving into bigotry and hatred, or something. When all we had done was make a polite request for them not to dress up in tutus and thongs and hand out leaflets to people in a public thoroughfare.
So we decided on water and flour bombs. It was like Rag Day all over again.
You are beginning to sound a bit like Kovacs. Are you sure there hasn't been more buggering around with usernames and passwords?
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its not the passion of christ, by the way. its the passion of THE christ. as in THE Fonz. i dont quite understand the point of this film; by the sounds of it its just three hours of sitting watching poor old jesus have various parts of his flesh ripped off with nailstudded whips. if i was a christian the last thing i would want to see would be someone whipping my beloved christ's skin of in strips. i would want a film where for three hours people hugged him and told him he was ace and that they really dug all his speeches and how he was nice to people all the time and everyone danced around shouting about the aceness of jesus. i have this terrible picture of all those cinemas in the midwest emptying of their block bookings of mouth breathing evangelisers, so charged up on blood lust and their saviours cries of agony that they go and beat a queer to death with a bible. why dont you love jesus, fag? we love jesus! we just watched him bleed! and now were watching you bleed too!
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: When all we had done was make a polite request for them not to dress up in tutus and thongs
oh my goodness! This used to happen at my college every day!!!
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: So we decided on water and flour bombs. It was like Rag Day all over again.
I have never been to a rag day, but I would have thought that the idea then would be that everyone was willingly participating in the "fun".
Thank you though, for explaining the "we". I still think you behaved like a group of bullies, we'll have to just accept our views differ, I think.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: You are beginning to sound a bit like Kovacs. Are you sure there hasn't been more buggering around with usernames and passwords?
It's funny how often people come up with "you sound like kovacs" line; when he is nice, noone accuses him of being me. Incidentally, there never has been any "buggering about with names and passwords" here or anywhere else. I have no desire to be kovacs and I'm sure he has none to be me. Perhaps *shock* sometimes I share a similar view to my boyfriend.
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quote:Originally posted by Modge: oh my goodness! This used to happen at my college every day!!!
lol. But... you were all pretty ballet students... Unless you had a fat, six-foot bloke with bleached hair and nasty facial piercings in your class.
quote:I have never been to a rag day, but I would have thought that the idea then would be that everyone was willingly participating in the "fun".
You don't always need to be a misery guts when making a political point, you know.
quote:Thank you though, for explaining the "we". I still think you behaved like a group of bullies, we'll have to just accept our views differ, I think.
Fair enough. I do however believe that the action taken by the Union was wrong. Here were four groups (five if you include the science gek, lol) making a polite request, only to be decribed as "haters" and told to fuck off. By the time the event came about, it had probably gone beyond merely clearing the gayz from the public walkway. It was about proving a point to the Union that there are other points of view than needed to be listened to.
quote:It's funny how often people come up with "you sound like kovacs" line; when he is nice, noone accuses him of being me.
Well, he isn't nice very often, is he? " "
quote:Incidentally, there never has been any "buggering about with names and passwords" here or anywhere else. I have no desire to be kovacs and I'm sure he has none to be me. Perhaps *shock* sometimes I share a similar view to my boyfriend.
Sharing a view is one thing, but sounding the same? Hmm.
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