posted
Can anyone clear up something one of my kids asked the other day.
It's about the Jesus story at Easter, right. IIRC he gets crucified on Good Friday, then he gets put in a tomb, then on Easter Sunday he "rises to sit at God's right hand", or something similar.
So, the question is, what state was he in all day Saturday? It says something like, "Jesus died... then rose again". The implication is that being dead is different from the state which is all over the rest of the Bible (I think) which is that you go to be judged and let into Heaven, or sent to Hell. But with the Jesus story, it's made out that he is special in having "risen from the dead". Surely everyone "rises from the dead" don't they? Maybe Jesus was actually unique in having been dead in the first place?
That small inconsistency really spoils an otherwise thoroughly believable read.
Posts: 8467
| IP: Logged
posted
From what I remember (but it might be wrong), He is crusicifed on Friday, and dies, and is put in the tomb, and remains presumably dead, until on Sunday (or is it Monday) the stone is rolled away by some women and He is not there. He has, at some point, stopped being dead. In fact there are some angels there who tell them that Jesus has risen and has gone ahead of them to Galilee, and they will find Him there.
He is eventually tracked down, and is basically back among the living. In fact He hangs around for a while (forty days), which is pretty amazing, and Doubting Thomas understandably has a hard time dealing with it, until he puts his hand into Christ's wound, which convinces him.
Then after the forty days, Jesus bodily rises up to heaven, in front of the twelve, to sit with the Lord on one arm of the Jim'll Fix It chair of destiny.
There are reports of other people rising from the dead from documents dating back to that period. Jesus wasn't alone in doing this, apparently. But they don't tell you that in the Gospels, the tricksy devils.
Posts: 7807
| IP: Logged
posted
I can't help it. Damn. I have to give a serious answer.
As far as I recall, the Jewish religion doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about life after death. The purpose in their life is to live God's way now and what will be afterwards, will be. They don't have an official line as such. I will stand corrected on that. Interestingly I was told by an Hasidic Jew that they don't have original sin either so there isn't that burden of guilt thing.
Jesus is supposed to be God's only son and he died and then rose again to prove that God had decided to save people for some glorious after life involving a resurrection when he next arose, all on condition that they believed in both God and Jesus, of course.
Of course, it is also said that when a body is cremated, it rises. That is to say, it sits up. Verily this is said to be something to do with gases in the stomach. Perhaps it was a very very hot day in Galilee.
Which theory would most amuse your children I wonder?
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
Ah, but that is a somewhat controversial belief and not necessarily held by all early Christians. Initially, it was just the notion of resurrection and rising from the dead which was the popular idea. In the meantime, one is dead.
On the Saturday, surely he was slowly cooking under a Galilean sun?
As for a lot of people rising from the dead; that was not uncommon in societies where testing for death was uncertain and I was led to believe that sitting up with the dead had as much to do with making sure they were dead before they were buried than praying for their souls.
[ 07.11.2007, 05:05: Message edited by: sam ]
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
posted
No, I remember reading something somewhere about a great many souls rising up from death and walking the streets, but I forget where and I forget on what occasion(s) it was supposed to have happened.
But they were actually definitely being dead and then not being dead and walking around for a bit, before (presumably) going back to being dead again.
Posts: 7807
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by sam: Ah, but that is a somewhat controversial belief and not necessarily held by all early Christians. Initially, it was just the notion of resurrection and rising from the dead which was the popular idea.
You're projecting 'controversial' backwards from subsequent developments in doctrine, surely? What was believed 'initially' isn't necessarily what was picked up in Paul's writings (ie. the body of material that reworked Christ's life and teachings into a fully-fleged religion) and many other things that were 'believed initially' were subsequently jettisoned for political/cultural reasons especially by the various councils of church elders and, latterly, during the Reformation and its aftermath.
It's depressing to consider that the process of legend-making that used to be facilitated by information scarcity (reliance on nth-hand oral accounts of an event or saying, fragments of manuscripts with critical passages excised or lost) has been succeeded by a mirror-image process of legend-making through information glut. Look up accounts of 9/11 or the Israel Palestine conflict on the internet and ask yourself how people in 200 or 500 years' time are going to have a clue what "really" happened.
Posts: 8657
| IP: Logged
posted
OK, so gleaning from the answers above, there appear to be three states:
1. Alive 2. Dead 3. In Heaven/Hell
On Friday morning Jesus was alive (State 1).
Then he was crucified and became dead (State 2).
Then he came alive again ("risen"?) and stayed alive for the default timeframe of "40 days" (and nights, no doubt) (State 1).
Then he went to sit at God's right hand (State 3).
What I'm still having trouble getting my head around is, what exactly is "dead" (State 1) in the view of the Bible? From what Sam says I'm getting the idea that Judgement and assignment to Heaven/Hell hasn't actually happened to everyone that's dead and will only happen some time in the future when Jesus comes back... Judgement Day, or whatever.
But there's loads of literature and paintings showing Heaven and Hell both absolutely thriving with souls, so that can't be right can it?
quote:Originally posted by ben: a mirror-image process of legend-making through information glut.
Yes, and the 'information glut' isn't even as straightforward as the media or other interested parties holding a simple mirror up to events. The process is more complex than that. To extend the metaphor, a mirror inevitably changes what it reflects for a variety of reasons, but add to that the process of selection in a profit driven media which decides what it will pass off as information based on sales potential rather than principles based on truthfulness, then you don't have much in the way of an accurate depiction.
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by dang65: From what Sam says I'm getting the idea that Judgement and assignment to Heaven/Hell hasn't actually happened to everyone that's dead and will only happen some time in the future when Jesus comes back... Judgement Day, or whatever.
Well, that's what the Roman Catholics believe, although I always get confused by what purgatory is meant to be; but the priest recently assured me that my mother was waiting judgement day now and we could only pray she would know God's glory and mercy when that day arrived.
It made me grateful that mum managed to lapse for my entire upbringing and spared me from such gloomy views. Call me odd, but I am comforted by the thought that I shall NOT last for ever and ever since that does sound like hell to me, but will fertilise some tree somewhere and that will be that!
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by dang65: What I'm still having trouble getting my head around is, what exactly is "dead" (State 1) in the view of the Bible? From what Sam says I'm getting the idea that Judgement and assignment to Heaven/Hell hasn't actually happened to everyone that's dead and will only happen some time in the future when Jesus comes back... Judgement Day, or whatever.
As I understand it, Judgement Day applies only to those who are still living at the time it occurs. Those who have died prior to that day have already been assigned to Heaven or Hell.
Posts: 7436
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by ben: Look up accounts of 9/11 or the Israel Palestine conflict on the internet and ask yourself how people in 200 or 500 years' time are going to have a clue what "really" happened.
This is why TMO needs to be regularly backed up onto indestructable hard disks and stored in a cave in Antarctica. Frankly, it's the only hope The Future has.
Posts: 8467
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by dang65: But there's loads of literature and paintings showing Heaven and Hell both absolutely thriving with souls, so that can't be right can it?
Maybe these souls are from other planets that have already had their Judgement Days. There are a lot of planets out there and Lord Jesus only gets to spend a limited amount of time on each, you see. He's like an inspector, on a constant tour around the universe. After our initial inspection, he went back to Head Office to do a PowerPoint presentation for his boss, leaving us with the words: "Definite room for improvement there, people of Earth. I'll be back in a couple of millennia, so try to clean things up, would you?"
* * * * *
Incidentally, I've just finished reading Last Light and despite its unchallenging use of language, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Well, perhaps enjoyed is the wrong word, but you get the idea. It's certainly thought-provoking and paints a pretty grim picture of the future. Makes you want to build an underground house in the middle of nowhere. But then, someone hungry and angry would find you eventually and take a pooh down your air pipe.
quote:Originally posted by dang65: But there's loads of literature and paintings showing Heaven and Hell both absolutely thriving with souls, so that can't be right can it?
Your physical stuff dies but your soul is eternal. That's how you end up spending an eternity in the lake of fire.
Christ's followers saw him resurrected (ie. physically), even to the extent that doubters could press a finger into his wounds. Then he 'ascended' - which I presume means physical as well as spiritually he was beamed up to Heaven. Simple.Posts: 8657
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by ralph: As I understand it, Judgement Day applies only to those who are still living at the time it occurs. Those who have died prior to that day have already been assigned to Heaven or Hell.
Yes, I understood it like that, but does that mean that Jesus spent Saturday in the queue or something, and then a security guard tapped him on the shoulder just as he was getting near the front and said, "Would you come with me for a moment please sir?" and everyone else kind of stared at him and whispered to each other?
Or is there a separate state of Death which isn't Heaven/Hell? Which is my original question.
Posts: 8467
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by dang65: Or is there a separate state of Death which isn't Heaven/Hell? Which is my original question.
I don't think there is a separate state of death which isn't Heaven or Hell. Not that I believe in such nonsense, I'm just parroting what I learned as a wee lad. Besides, Jesus is the son of God. I don't think the normal rules applied to him.
Posts: 7436
| IP: Logged
posted
My understanding of death is largely informed by Will Self's How the Dead Live, shortlived American television series Dead Like Me and The Mighty Boosh (Monkey Hell).
Posts: 14015
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by sam: ...they don't have original sin either so there isn't that burden of guilt thing.
If that's true, is that why Jewish mothers are so good at giving guilt trips? Cuz Jews don't have to concern themselves from the Fall, so instead being a good son or marrying a good Jewish boy takes its place?
-------------------- Evil isn't what you've done, it's feeling bad about it afterwards... Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. Posts: 3793
| IP: Logged
posted
I won't get as high a limbo BM. The good father told me that I would be dying without Christ so could not be saved on judgement day. As I said, I find that comforting.
Do you think you could get as high as limbo, or are you already saved/damned?
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by sam: ...they don't have original sin either so there isn't that burden of guilt thing.
If that's true, is that why Jewish mothers are so good at giving guilt trips? Cuz Jews don't have to concern themselves from the Fall, so instead being a good son or marrying a good Jewish boy takes its place?
I suspect there isn't a great deal else for a good Jewish mother to do with her energy and a guilt trip is as good a way to create energy if you're the one giving it.
-------------------- A day without laughter is a day wasted. In memory of Alastair Posts: 1936
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by sam: a guilt trip is as good a way to create energy if you're the one giving it.
It's also a good way to drive a daughter's boyfriend to distraction and reason to slip small bits of bacon into her gefilte fish.
-------------------- Evil isn't what you've done, it's feeling bad about it afterwards... Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. Posts: 3793
| IP: Logged
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic