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» TMO Talk » Life » Politics, eh? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Politics, eh?
Ringo

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Election hmmm. Voting, huh?

Anyone want to have a conversation about politics? I know it's not films, music or computer games, so doesn't really have much of an impact on the average TMOer's life, but someone might have an opinion.

Anyone watching the live debate tonight?

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Cherry In Hove
Channel 39
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I was going to watch it but one of my stupid friends has decided that it is her birthday today so I have to go out for that instead. [Mad]

I'm throwing away my vote and voting Lib Dem.

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Ringo

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Ugh, really? Does anyone actually vote lib dem on the strength of their policies, or is it now just the default 'third option'?
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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
someone might have an opinion.

I keep switching between the three major parties. I don't know. At the moment I'm erring on the side of the Lib Dems. I'd like to see them get in just to give someone else a go at it. Everyone keeps promising education reform, which is more of a concern for me last time around, but even then it feels like it's impossible to know whether or not their ideas will work. So I don't know. Childcare is another one, but again I'm not convinced it's something anyone's got a viable solution to.

I feel like I don't know enough about the running of a country to be able to make an informed decision. Unlike the American system, the three main British parties all seem to want the same end results: improved education, improved healthcare, better standards for the environment, more jobs for Brits, but seem mainly to disagree on how best to get there. Fine. I can look at all their ideas, but really I don't know whether they're good ideas, and I don't see how anyone else can either. So much rests on unknowable, chaotic factors, unforseen consequences and global influences over which we have no control that a seemingly good idea can unravel pretty fast.

It all kind of leaves me with the impression that anyone who says "Oh this is how we fix education" is kind of a fucking idiot. And of course, everyone's saying that, so I'm kind of uncertain about all of them. I mean, all three parties have logical justifications for their strategies and you think "Yeah, that would work, if everything happens as you hoped, but that's a big if". And then another party says "no, no, you fix education like this" and it's like "Yeah, again - if you're right about these other assumptions, it's a great idea. But if he's right, then your idea will be a disaster." and really, there's no way of knowing how things are going to pan out.

In summary then: undecided.

[ 15.04.2010, 07:43: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]

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mart
Wearing nothing but a smile
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That's exactly how I feel. Exactly. I'm torn between voting LibDem, voting Green, spoiling my vote, or not voting at all, because, y'know, it only encourages them. I'll probably go with LibDem, or vote tactically (I should find out about my constituency), or something.

I should register to vote as well, really.

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mart
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Can anyone tell me why UKIP is a bad idea? They never seem to say anything particularly nutty, that I've heard. I suspect they are a bit nutty, but I am unaware of any nuttiness. I mean, theire main thing (leaving the EU) isn't particularly controversial, is it. I'm sure we'd all be fine... we'd get by. It's economics again, which I don't understand.

But do they have any good crazy policies? I could look them up but I trust the voice of TMO more.

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Ringo

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Yeah I feel pretty much the same way, but I can only really say I'm torn between Labour or Conservative.

I suppose at least the Green party are concerned with some of the issues that bother me, which seems to be getting almost no attention from the main parties. They also seem to be more or less ignoring immigration issues, with only a few vague mentions of targets for yearly caps or setting points standards. Which has the unsettling effect that anyone who feels particularly affected by immigration issues may find themselves gravitating towards right wing mentallists like the BNP, or UKIP who are hardly any better.

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Kanye West
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it's between labour and libdem where i am, and i feel that the area could benefit from the lib dem angle. Probably go for them, but i also might not bother. we've already got boris of course, sadly. haringey is libdem, and Featherstone seems alright as far as i can tell, pretty active in campaigning to hold on to civic institutions and keep them benefiting people that need them, although she also covers muswell hill, which has gone even more ridiculously twee and remote since i moved out. We're labour at the moment, the dude has his office literally in between the six acres estate and a pub that was just transformed into luxury flats. Weird area in that respect, but you know, i'm all for getting robin hood with the people who are only living in the area because they can't quite afford to get to crouch end. Frankly, if anybody could setup a dogshit extermination squad, rounding up morning dog walkers like so many sao paulo children, then I'd probably go with that.

conservative, you know. No. Never.

[ 15.04.2010, 07:51: Message edited by: Kanye West ]

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mart
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But what are the immigration "issues"? Has something changed in recent years with regard to immigration? If you're from the EU, you can move to the UK. That's one thing. I can see arguments for and against. What else has happened, or changed?
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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
conservative, you know. No. Never.

See, this seems like an idiotic comment. What if the Conservatives came up with policies that made you think "actually, that would really work"? Saying that you won't ever vote for someone, regardless of what policies they have is fucking braindead.
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Ringo

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Well, people seem generally very concerned about the rate of change in their communities. It doesn't make you a racist or a bigot to have concerns about it. There are huge sections of some cities which are now home to large immigrant populations.

It's become such a dirty issue these days that it's almost impossible to talk about it without sounding like some hate mongering hitler twin. But this is a big issue on a lot of people's minds, rightly or wrongly, and it's a big enough issue that they're quite prepared to vote for any party who seems prepared to talk about it. Which unfortunately really boils down to the likes of the BNP and UKIP.

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mart
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I agree that concern over "immigration" and "race relations" (or whatever we want to call it) are separate things (or should be), but I'm still not sure what people want to happen. I mean, from what I understand, unless you're from the EU it's already really quite hard to immigrate to this country, I think. There are rules and entry requirements and all that sort of thing. What do people who are "opposed" to immigration actually want to change?
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Ringo

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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
conservative, you know. No. Never.

See, this seems like an idiotic comment. What if the Conservatives came up with policies that made you think "actually, that would really work"? Saying that you won't ever vote for someone, regardless of what policies they have is fucking braindead.
So, for argument's sake, if the BNP had some really cracking plans for education reform, you'd vote for them?
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mart
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I might be wrong about it being hard to immigrate to here. I don't know.

And:

quote:
There are huge sections of some cities which are now home to large immigrant populations.
But huge sections of some cities have been home to large immigrant populations for decades. Why is it such a big deal now? Or is the fact that only some people get huffy about it now (and no one mainstream bothers to talk about it) proof that actually it's really not that big of a deal at all anymore, and the vast majority of people don't really care, because, y'know, it doesn't really matter.

[ 15.04.2010, 08:15: Message edited by: mart ]

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Ringo

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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
I agree that concern over "immigration" and "race relations" (or whatever we want to call it) are separate things (or should be), but I'm still not sure what people want to happen. I mean, from what I understand, unless you're from the EU it's already really quite hard to immigrate to this country, I think. There are rules and entry requirements and all that sort of thing. What do people who are "opposed" to immigration actually want to change?

Well, I think one of the things people would like is a standard set of criteria to decide who is able to come here and who isn't. For instance, certain standards of education, qualifications, having a level of financial independance to be able to support yourself while finding work, and making sure that immigrant workers are distributed into areas where there's a genuine requirement. The manual building trade, for instance, I know there's a sense that there's only so much work out there and the influx of manual workers from Eastern Europe means that a lot of British workers are finding it hard to get work. Now whether or not this is correct I don't know, but it is at least a discussion worth having.

Also, there are questions regarding healthcare, schooling, and benefits, all of which are resources which can only be stretched so far. So an increase in population needs to be adjusted for in terms of increases in financial and human resources in those sectors. However there are questions over where those finances and humans are going to come from. There are questions of elligibility - whether migrants living in the UK should automatically qualify for free healthcare through the NHS, or state subsidised schooling for their children.

Again, I'm not saying that these concerns are correct or not. I'm just saying that these are the big issues in a lot of people's minds, and as far as I can see the three main parties are keeping pretty mum on the whole subject.

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Kanye West
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
conservative, you know. No. Never.

See, this seems like an idiotic comment. What if the Conservatives came up with policies that made you think "actually, that would really work"? Saying that you won't ever vote for someone, regardless of what policies they have is fucking braindead.
i am fucking braindead... isn't this clear?
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Kanye West
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We should start with Chinatown in central london. Around that area it's now almost impossible for good english folk to open a noodle/rice based restaurant, start up a place where men can visit young models, or provide miracle cures for acne. Also, the staggering number of polish layabouts have totally chiefed all the bar jobs and casual labour from australian students! They even have THEIR OWN SHOPS. It's a disgrace.
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mart
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quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
Well, I think one of the things people would like is a standard set of criteria to decide who is able to come here and who isn't.

But I think there is a standard set of criteria. Or rather, I'd be amazed if there wasn't.

quote:
For instance, certain standards of education, qualifications, having a level of financial independance to be able to support yourself while finding work
I may very well be wrong, but I think those are the sort of criteria that are used.

quote:
Also, there are questions regarding healthcare, schooling, and benefits, all of which are resources which can only be stretched so far. So an increase in population needs to be adjusted for...
From my understanding, immigration has far, far less of an effect on population numbers than birth and death rates do. I think it's pretty miniscule, in fact -- but I could be wrong.

I'm not having a go at you Ringo -- I think it's a really interesting area of discussion and one that I would probably be quite Draconian about -- I think (coming from a standpoint of complete ignorance about the geopolitical economics of it all) we need to reduce the population rather than increase it -- this island can only sustain so many people, etc. etc.

I just don't quite get what the real issue is. Or why people have these concerns. I suspect that they're afraid of change, rather than it being about economics and schooling and the NHS and so on. But, again, I might be wrong.

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Kanye West
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plus they have their own culture and language and sometimes you can't understand them which is really offputting, because they always seem like they are talking about you and sharing jokes at your expense. It removes my sense of being able to completely understand my environment... these foreigners are shaping my human landscape, stealing time and space by forging pockets of human interaction that I cannot participate in. Its natural isn't it to want to know everything that goes on in your territory, like how a cat patrols its turf to make sure it knows every corner. without this i cannot feel comfortable in my tacit ownership of all of the public space that I inhabit.
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MiscellaneousFiles

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It's Conservative or Liberal Democrat in Newbury. As the Lib Dems say in their literature Labour can't win here!"

Here's a picture of our local Tory I found on GIS:
 -

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Kanye West
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I think i can understand the fear that people have of this stuff, of people who you do not consider to be part of your society. It's just a shame that people can't admit it to themselves and each other, and have to cloak it in aggression and bullshit, and then blame the PC police for silencing them. Nationalism is about this fear, but the inability to admit fear as a personal quality, and the inability to see how damaging it is, is turned into aggression. Culture, language, principles etc will always change as long as humans are alive... there's a whole new set of people every hundred years. These fears... they seem natural to individuals, but i can't help feel that they are stunting us... but then perhaps i'm assuming that without fear, or at least, if we strive to conquer this fear, we will somehow 'find a way', like we all live in fucking magic land. Perhaps without fear we would all be cheerfully fucking and killing like in a david cronenburg film. i didn't grow up in interzone, i spent 10 years growing up in Kent ffs, so i know what it's like to find comfort and safety in a moderate, homogenous community. But we could tear all this up and make it new, and part of me wants that, because we can, because there are no rules saying that we have to have a continuation. Let historians document the shifts, but make things new and better. I know its bullshit, and my principles and thoughts are just a mess, teenage nonsense... but I feel sad when i think of how protective we are of habits and systems that shield us from each other=. I can't help feel that will die and change anyway, even if we do our best to hold onto them. But i've gone full circle... i assume that a society will always 'progress'. There's no guarantee. I don't even know where this belief comes from...? Maybe, as I child, I enjoyed watching adverts for multicultural children eating mcdonalds or something. I'm naive, i know it, i shield myself from it all by living in a space that barely exists in any clearly definable way.
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Tilde
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I'm with Kanye.
A Nazi Dogshit regime together with;

1. a ban on public displays of affection,

2. no religious schools. I don't go to church to learn maths do I?

3. All 4x4s to either be roofless or canvas topped.
3b. No one other than farmers and the army allowed to drive 4x4s.

4. Anyone parking in a disabled bay who is not disabled should immediately be made disabled.

5. Anyone parking in a parent and child bay who does not have a child/children must be made to foster an orphan with A.D.D.

6. A massive reduction in disabled bays in all car parks, come on we don't need a whole floor now do we?

7. All traffic lights removed. It's every man/woman for himself here.

8. Make speed humps into speed jumps, maybe over zebra crossings?

9. Make mobiles explode on trains if used for more than 20 seconds.

10. No white people allowed to do a gangsta-type walk

11. Anyone speaking too loudly in a restaurant made to pay for everyone else's food.

12. Let all the animals that look sad out of their cages at the zoo.

13. Tax on hipsters

14. Tax on people walking around wearing a Matrix-style coat.

15. Tax on people wearing sunglasses when it's not even sunny

16. Tax on men walking around without a shirt on.

17. Abolish the tips system.


That's about all I can think of for now.

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Kanye West
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pass a proper law regarding the issue of people looking at other people in a funny way. Could stop the escalation of such incidences into violence if they could be nipped in the bud at this early stage. Also consider a law against looking at another man's bird, a law against a man saying another man is wearing a gay shirt, a law against a woman criticising another woman for being a bad mother, a law against a man having a child with more than one woman, a law against teenagers, a law against people standing still when someody is walking towards them, a law that prevents people from examining privately owned property or posessions if there is no way they could ever afford to buy it themselves, a law against txspeak, a law against teachers, a law against music that has jarring electronic instrumentation, a law against any pornography apart from pictures of smiling topless 19 y'old and upskirt paparazzi shots, a law against bottled water, a law against rain, a law against everybody and everything.

[ 15.04.2010, 08:54: Message edited by: Kanye West ]

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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
conservative, you know. No. Never.

See, this seems like an idiotic comment. What if the Conservatives came up with policies that made you think "actually, that would really work"? Saying that you won't ever vote for someone, regardless of what policies they have is fucking braindead.
So, for argument's sake, if the BNP had some really cracking plans for education reform, you'd vote for them?
If their policies reflected my concerns for the country I would. At the moment, they don't - and not just becase they haven't got a great policy on education, but because the immigration thing will get in the way for me. Apart from immigration, they're quite left wing, though, so if they ditched the whole racism schtick they might see some support from folk who feel alienated by 'new' labour.

It's pretty evident that political parties change ideology as time goes on. The Liberal party under Gladstone has more in common with the Conservative party of today than it does with the lib dems. The Conservative party of Disraeli shared some of the same ideas as the current Labour government. Obviously Labour in the seventies was a significantly different proposition to the party that was elected in the nineties.

So, this idea of just digging in and saying "Never!" seems to deny the evidence of the past couple of hundred years that the priorities and ideologies of political parties can change significantly.

The other thing the grates when people say 'never!' about the Tories, is that they're often the same people who want the Democrats to get into office in the US, despite the fact that in many ways they're more right-wing than the conservatives.

For the record, I do get just as fucked off with people saying that they'd "never" vote lib dem or Labour. It's just a bit like "You're not even going to listen to what the other guy is saying?" In that case why not just grab 20 ballots, fill them out for the next 20 elections and then shut the fuck up about it all because you've clearly got nothing meaningful to add.

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Ringo

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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
Well, I think one of the things people would like is a standard set of criteria to decide who is able to come here and who isn't.

But I think there is a standard set of criteria. Or rather, I'd be amazed if there wasn't.

quote:
For instance, certain standards of education, qualifications, having a level of financial independance to be able to support yourself while finding work
I may very well be wrong, but I think those are the sort of criteria that are used.
Well, maybe so. Though maybe those criteria need to be looked at? I think one of the big concerns is that a significant proportion of immigrants are focusing on specific industries, like the construction industry. So maybe some kind of rolling criteria which is based on the requirements of the country, rather than just arbitary standards which must be met. I don't totally know how the current system works, and this is part of the issue here - major parties seem oddly reluctant to talk about it. There is a debate to be had, even if the answer is that things are perfect as they are. If the process was more transparent, we might not have people going round with ridiculous notions in their heads that anyone coming to this country gets a free council house and a £2500 pcm allowance, etc etc. People seem very confused, or maybe misguided. Probably as a result of media misinformation. The Daily Mail effect. But again, it all comes back to the fact that concrete facts and figures are hard to come by.

quote:
quote:
Also, there are questions regarding healthcare, schooling, and benefits, all of which are resources which can only be stretched so far. So an increase in population needs to be adjusted for...
From my understanding, immigration has far, far less of an effect on population numbers than birth and death rates do. I think it's pretty miniscule, in fact -- but I could be wrong.
That may very well be the case. In fact I'm almost certain that you're right. However it's maybe not as cut and dry as that. Because a lot of immigrants tend to choose the same locations, and resources are alocated on a regional, not a national level. So while the net increase in population in the UK may be very slight, the increase in certain boroughs may be more than the local area is able to cope with. Or maybe it's not. Maybe it's just a perception of a problem which comes from a natural sense of mistrust of anyone that's different.


quote:
I'm not having a go at you Ringo -- I think it's a really interesting area of discussion and one that I would probably be quite Draconian about -- I think (coming from a standpoint of complete ignorance about the geopolitical economics of it all) we need to reduce the population rather than increase it -- this island can only sustain so many people, etc. etc.

I just don't quite get what the real issue is. Or why people have these concerns. I suspect that they're afraid of change, rather than it being about economics and schooling and the NHS and so on. But, again, I might be wrong.

A lot of it must come from the fact that a lot of immigrants these days are Muslims. When you consider, say, a Spanish or a French person, aside from having a different language, the culture and way of doing things are effectively the same as the average British person. People from a Muslim background, however, tend to want to live a different sort of lifestyle. It's a generalisation, sure, but it's something which is very easy to identify and perhaps makes immigration a much more visible thing, even if in terms of numbers the effect is minimal.

Again, I want to point out that I'm playing devil's advocate - of all people I should be pretty receptive to the principles of immigration. I work with two very skilled Polish guys, who have great English skills and are easy to get along with. These guys are probably far more representative of the immigrant population in the UK than the burkha clad terror that gets touted by the likes of the Daily Mail. I just think it's something at the forefront of a lot of people's concerns at the moment, most likely as a result of that misinformation, but for whatever reason it seems to have stirred up a certain xenophobic element who seen both numerous and vocal.

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Kanye West
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the idea of choosing a political party purely based on policy seems like not the best way. I think that you have to mix up the ideology, history, people, current climate, global situation, and track record alongside the policy, not just sit down with three manifestos as if you were processing information in a social and political vacuum. For me, the Conservatives fail on so many levels that a decent system to say, prevent the spread of business and market forces into public institutions wouldn't even be enough to make me think that yes, i believe that this country would benefit from having these people on top. But I tend to vote not on national power, but local MP, which then makes it much easier to dismiss tories - do i want lower taxes and more corporate ownership of public services, or do i not? I believe it is more civilised and more likely to be of benefit to people and places who need help if we do not let market forces dictate all of our civic policies and decisions. I would rather we raise taxes and keep these things in the realm of democracy, putting people ahead of profit within the systems. I believe that society is what we should serve, maintain, and consider. Our top priority should be convincing people that other people matter, working towards a system that has less inequality without the use of social darwinism. And you cannot do that properly while people like david cameron, or any tory leader during the course of my life, have political power.

[ 15.04.2010, 10:11: Message edited by: Kanye West ]

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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
I think that you have to mix up the ideology, history, people, current climate, global situation, and track record alongside the policy,

But with the exception of history and track record (which are almost the same thing), all the other elements of this mix are turbulent. So even if you know you won't vote for the Tories this time around, how can you know what the climate or global situation is going to be in 16 years time? While it sounds terribly laudable to claim that when you use your vote you weigh up "ideology, history, people, current climate, global situation, and track record alongside the policy", the truth is that when you say "I will never vote for party X" you're effectively saying "I will vote based on the history and track record of the party alone regardless of any changes that may take place with ideology, people, current climate, global situation, and policy."
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Thorn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
do i want lower taxes and more corporate ownership of public services, or do i not?

I may be wrong on this, but don't Labour also now have a track record of increasing private sector involvement in public services? From my understanding this was one of the things that defined their move away from the Socialist party of old. Yet - you say you would consider voting Labour.
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Kanye West
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if the funding and support and inhabitants and ideology and core political ideology changed - ie - if they completely altered overnight into a different party in every aspect apart from the name, then sure, I'd give them a go.
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Thorn Davis

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What if it didn't happen overnight, but over the course of a decade or two, as it did with Labour?

[ 15.04.2010, 10:20: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]

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Kanye West
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
do i want lower taxes and more corporate ownership of public services, or do i not?

I may be wrong on this, but don't Labour also now have a track record of increasing private sector involvement in public services? From my understanding this was one of the things that defined their move away from the Socialist party of old. Yet - you say you would consider voting Labour.
I don't think I did. It's between those two in terms of who might get it, but not in terms of who I'd vote for. It's either libdem or not bother, and the not bothering wouldn't be out of some kind of protest, but literally not being arsed to walk to the place and do it, because y'know, who cares really. I only REALLY care when I see cameron's weirdly plastic looking face looming at me from signs, telling me that the world is fucked and they are the solution.
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Ringo

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It's a lot of responsibility isn't it. Voting, like.

Worst thing for me is seeing on some forums people talking about voting a certain way because they want Brown out. As if it was some kind of X-Factor elimination where you are trying to vote off the person you like least, rather than looking for a party which is most likely to do a good job of running the country.

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Thorn Davis

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I always feel like I want to vote for Brown because I read some editorial complaining that he tried to win people over by logical arguments rather than charisma.

Mainly, I find that I change my mind every time I read an article slagging one of the parties off and I think "Yeah? Well maybe that's a good idea."

I'd almost settled on Lib Dem until Octavia pointed out that it meant voting for some ginger headed twat who I'd previously mocked in the street, so that prompted a bit of a re-think. It's difficult.

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Kanye West
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kanye West:
if the funding and support and inhabitants and ideology and core political ideology changed - ie - if they completely altered overnight into a different party in every aspect apart from the name, then sure, I'd give them a go.

What if it didn't happen overnight, but over the course of a decade or two, as it did with Labour?
err, sure. But I don't think that would happen - I don't see the Conservatives moving to the left. Labour moved to the right to capture your Mondeo Man, who was traditionally a conservative. Where to the left can the tories go? Labour is right up against them. They'd have to go more left than labour, otherwise they would just be Labour. The right they used to have has been taken over by lunatics. This 'broken britain' slogan screams a lack of mobility... it's kind of courting the ukip people, but also kind of courting everybody who suffered in the recession, reads newspapers, or watches TV. It's vague, and doesn't really properly spell out where they are, just that they aren't labour.

[ 15.04.2010, 10:32: Message edited by: Kanye West ]

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Thorn Davis

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Exactly - I think they're very close to labour: they seem to be wanting the same things now, and just disagree about how to get there. So once you find yourself thinking "Nrgh. Labour or Lib Dems?" you may as well consider the Conservatives also because they seem like Labour, but with a different set of tactics.
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