When I was small, the queen of England celebrated her Silver Jubilee and there were street parties everywhere, the like of which I have never seen since, although I imagine they happened often once.
My street had banners and flags and balloons, and tables with games on, things like you might find in a fete, but less professionally done by my neighbours; hoopla, pomagne charlie, and a lucky dip where I got a bow and arrow and had to give it to my brother because he got a pencil sharpener and was crying.
There were events, races, egg and spoon that sort of thing. I was entered into a bike race. It was 1977, I was five years old.
There were bigger kids on the start line, They had Raleigh Grifters, Choppers, one even had a Racer. I was on a bike with 6inch wheels, I was the smallest kid there. There was a crowd either side of the road, the flag dropped and I pedaled as fast as my legs would allow.
It was about 50 metres to the finish line, I never looked back or to the side, I was 100% focused on the tape stretched across the road, I was stood up on the pedals, there was a lot of noise, the crowd shouting and clapping.
I went through the tape, I couldn't believe it, I had finished first against all the other big kids, it was the greatest moment of my life so far.
I stopped my bike and turned round to see the other competitors, strangely none of them had crossed the line yet, they were pedaling slowly, wobbling, trying to keep balance. I didn't understand.
The crowd were looking at me and ...laughing? I didn't understand.
Kay, an older girl from my street, came over to me and put her arm round me. "it was a slow race, last person to finish wins" she was laughing too.
----
Since then I never really liked to win, I preferred to be second place. I had the ability to drive a go-cart, or a motorbike, or a car or play most sports (except football and athletics) and be in with a pretty good chance of winning most times. But I would be happiest if I lost, not by much preferably, and even better because of a technical fault with the timing equipment or an unfortunate mechanical breakdown on the last lap.
If I won, and I was stood up there on the podium on the first place box, I always felt uncomfortable.
It's not the winning it the taking part that counts anyhow, right?
This is going to die on it's arse, but has there been anything in your life that maybe has had a lasting effect you, or alternatively have you ever done anything stupid which is burned into your memory with shame and embarrassment. Preferably in front of a large crowd of jeering people.
note: apologies in advance to thorn for doing "whimsical" and "nostalgic" in the same post.
[ 23.01.2008, 04:46: Message edited by: Tilde ]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
When have I ever complained about whimsy or nostalgia?
The memory the Tilde's post triggered for me was when I was also about five years old, competing in the school sports day. I was a year ahead at that school, so my experience of atheletics was one of being utterly, utterly outclassed by the other kids. I mean, even amongst my own age group I would have been a small, wimpy kid, but amongst kids a year older it was like pitching a rottweiler against Yippee the Backflipping dog.
Running the 75 metre sprint that day, I was just left for dust. It was like one of those dreams where you're legs won't move. The other kids just streaked ahead of me, even as I strained to make my legs move as fast as I could will them. It seemed like an impossible situation; there was nothing I could do to catch them.
There was a twofold compounding of this humiliation. Unwilling to let me have one of those heroic finishes where you're applauded just for going the distance, the PE teacher actually started the next the race before I crossed the finish line. This was the 75 metres, remember, so it's not like he would have had to wait long, even if I was a whopping thirty seconds behind the guy who came in fifth.
There's picture of this in my childhood home, showing all the eager parents looking to the start line, cheering, as I sprint past. My mother likes this photo, saying "It makes it look like you're way, way ahead of all the other kids." A bitter, humiliating defeat falsely revised as a spectacular victory. Awful, yet remarkable in the extent to which it forshadowed my life.
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
whimsy? Ah, rubbish, I thought we'd be talking about Mimsies.
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: When have I ever complained about whimsy or nostalgia?
You made me realise that a lot of my stuff was whimsical when you pointed it out in that thread where I did a post on a piece of crumpled paper on the tube and scanned it here I just apologised for the nostalgia in case.
quote:Originally posted by Nathan Bleak: Reading that, I assumed it was some bit of writing from one of the failed London bombings the year before last, something they'd found in the guy's rucksack or something like that, which made it seem quite fascinating.
Sadly I don't have a camera or a camera phone with me, so I can't join in Tilde's pointless and irritatingly whimsical game.
It's ok though. I liked your story.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I've never really enjoyed organized competition, and have avoided most situations where it may have arisen. I don't think I've ever competed in a sporting event, or at least, I've certainly never entered a sport game with any intention of doing anything other than doing the bare minimum until it was over. Let others enjoy the win. As Tilde says, competing and winning draws attention to yourself, but chances are you will fail. It also increases your responsibility and expectations, which should both be kept at a minimum.
I suppose life in itself is inherently competitive, but I try and keep myself on the sidelines as much as possible. It's impossible to totally avoid competitive situations though. Almost every conversation will often have undertones of competition. If I finish a day and on reflection find that I was trying to show off, impress others, or if I was basking in the glow of accomplishment, then I'll put in a few hours of silent internal self-abuse as I lie in bed, to remind myself that I'm a pathetic worm.
I've been in teams that have won pub quizzes before though, and I suppose I've enjoyed that. I'm all about the team, where you can melt away into the social.
That's neither nostalgic nor whimsical. Sorry everybody. Hopefully the next post will be from dang65.
[ 23.01.2008, 05:56: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I'll put in a few hours of silent internal self-abuse as I lie in bed,
Isn't this the opposite of what you mean? Surely this would involve lying there thinking "You're amazing Dr Benway. You're the king. You're the greatest."?
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
Anyway. As a coda to my sports day humiliation, I remember when I was 11 - at the same school, with the same PE teacher - I won the hundred metre breast-stroke at the swimming gala, beating all the kids from the swimming team. The teacher announced over the tannoy "Incredible to see Ian Evans winning, there, as he's not normally very good at sport."
I know this all boils down to PE Teacher = wanker, which is a bit like saying sun = hot, but as no-one else is contributing except to point out how individualistic they are to not have anything to contribute, I thought I may as well throw it in there.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I'll put in a few hours of silent internal self-abuse as I lie in bed,
Isn't this the opposite of what you mean? Surely this would involve lying there thinking "You're amazing Dr Benway. You're the king. You're the greatest."?
No, I mean like, going through the day and picking out the places where I started showing off or trying to 'beat' people at things, and chastising myself for being a cock.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
I can't really equate to the 'wanting to lose' thing as being American, there is some sort of switch in our DNA that says we have to win. There is no 2nd place, only 1st and losers.
However, I remember about 6 I was in some sort of play for my school and I was a horse on a carousel and had to say, "But your a real horse now!" as the premise was one of my merry-go-round horses became a real horse.
All during rehearsals I was scared shitless of standing up in front of people and talking to the point where I was waffling about not doing it. In fact, right up to the 'curtain call' I was still not going to do it, but my teacher told me that if I didn't do it, she'd let Tonya do it. I hated Tonya so I said I would get over it. Fast forward to the play, due to my nerves and hatred of Tonya, I shouted from the top of my lungs in some sort of 6 year old pseudo-grownup voice, "BUT YOU'RE A REAL HORSE NOW" to which the entire audience fell about laughing, compounding my stage-fright to the point of nearly fainting.
Since that day, the idea of standing up and doing anything that is akin to public speaking still fills me with dread. Oddly, playing American football in front of thousands of people, televised to thousands more (highschool state championships) didn't bother me in the least. In fact, the cheering/jeering just made me want to play better and hit harder. :shrug:
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
I was bobbins at everything sportwise at school - my father was quite a sportsman winning trophies for football, cricket and a host of other sports, but me, even with a classic footballing surname as I have could not kick a ball to save my life. I was always picked last when teams were chosen, and often with the resentment and hurt only a kid can issue without comprehension of the pain in inflicted on the child who just wanted to play. I even remember once being given to the team as they didn't want me, ending up playing a team of 12 against a team of 10. I have a lot of painful memories of school.
However, by the time I got to comprehensive school it wasn't so bad - we'd invented our own game - double touch - which was kind of a version of rollerball without the skates played in a tennis court. Quite an ingenious game as it happened mixing violence, skill, trickery and lots of shouting. And basically anyone with an ounce of common sense could win it.
Also by the time I got to the third year our games teacher stopped being a bastard, and I guess bonded a bit better with you as you got older - gave a bit more respect, so I made a bit of effort. And one day, I guess a throwback from being bullied a bit as a youngster, I discovered something. I could run. Not fast, but certainly far. Cross country running I would come in about 3rd or 4th out of 50, and suddenly this was noticed by the games teachers, and there was even mentions of representing my house on sports day.
The one thing I remember was running the 1500 one day. I just set off with the others, and more for the kick out of it took the lead for a bit. Then I extended it a bit more, then I just pulled out all the stops and giving it my all. At 1000 meters I was half a lap ahead - the games teacher ran towards me to bolster me on, but the others started the sprint - I couldn't muster any more speed and on the final straight was beaten by 2 others to come in third. Closest I had ever come to winning anything sporting at all.
About 2 weeks later I discovered fags and thus ended my sporting career.
Of course the greatest athletic story of coming in last was one from the Army which I told some time ago, and won't bore you with again, but that was my moment
[ 23.01.2008, 07:01: Message edited by: Waynster ]
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
They've even found a way to extend school sports day humiliation into adulthood now, you'll be dismayed to learn. It's in the form of the Dads' Race and Mums' Race.
I remember being at the absolute peak of physical fitness a few years ago, regularly cycling long distances at speed and generally a fuck sight slimmer than I am now. I absolutely hammered it down the field... only to find that I finished second to last. And the guy behind me was still smoking a pipe as he strolled across the line in his sandals and socks and panama hat.
It's my firm belief that theotherdads spend every weekend of the year at some kind of extreme training camp just to prepare for this one day so they don't totally embarrass their children. The guy with the panama hat was probably just a passing nutter or something.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
That reminds me of a pleasant school afternoon, aged about 10 watching the cricket team play in the Sons vs Fathers match. The cricket team was basically the same kids as the soccer team, the rugby team and the swimming team. Anyway. This kid Charlie was up to bat against his father, Dr Jowett. You'd expect be some kind of leeway, when 40 year old men are playing against 10 year olds. But Dr Jowett hammered down the pitch and uncurled a bouncing, spinning slingshot that hit the ground precisely, and ricocheted up to smash his son in the face. It made me laugh then, and still makes me chuckle now, the image of Charlie on his knees crying, spitting blood and teeth, people rushing to help him while his dad appealed to the umpire with "That counts as 'out', right?" Anyway. Charlie's a doctor now too, so I guess things worked out alright for him.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
I’ve never really been physically competitive. I do remember school sports days, and PE lessons and whatnot, where I was forced into situations where I suppose I was actually competing in one sense or another, but I never really took part in any meaningful way. The notion that if I applied myself I might actually become the best at something never even occurred to me. As far as I was concerned there were some kids who were good at football, some who could run fast, and then there were people who just weren’t any good at physical stuff, and that was that.
The closest I ever actually got to any sense of achievement at anything physical when I was young, was with swimming, which seemed to be about the only thing I was actually any good at. When taking swimming lessons we, as a group, were told to do a certain number of lengths in a certain stroke, etc etc, and for some reason it was always really important to me to be the first person to finish. I don’t know if any of the other kids were actually competing in such a manner though. Eventually, I started doing distance badges, and found that if I really tried, I could swim for reasonable distances. 600m was my longest although I think I could have probably gone on for 1000m if I hadn’t gotten bored with it.
Other than physical stuff, I did enter a talent contest at school. Me and another kid, also named Chris. You could do whatever you liked, some kids danced, some sang, a couple even played musical instruments. Chris and I did improvised stand up comedy. When I say improvised, of course I mean we just didn’t have an act and made it up as we went along. Suffice to say, it didn’t go well. I was hugely unpopular anyway, Chris was ginger, both of us were shy, and probably 90% of our ‘act’ consisted of us playing on the fact we both had the same name. When it came time for people to vote for us, we only got one vote, and I think that was from one girl who felt sorry for us. I still can’t really get my head round it to this day, because I’m no good at speaking in front of groups of people, and was a massive recluse when I was young, so what on earth possessed me to enter into a talent competition I don’t know. Of course, that was the end of my brief stand up comedy career, although Chris and I did go on to ‘write’ a number of short ‘plays’ which we performed in front of our parents. These were generally grossout comedies involving surgery and bad hygiene. Alas, Chris moved away and that was the end of that.
More recently than that, as a teenager I spent many months learning how to trampoline. I went two evenings a week, working through various routines and such with one on one tuition. This came to an end when my instructor said she wanted me to enter a national trampolining competition, and it all just seemed too heavy to contemplate. I wish I had done it now, actually. I went along to the competition because another girl I knew was competing, and there were only about 4 people in our category. I could have gotten at least a silver I think.
And that’s not the only time I shyed away from competition when I was good at something. I used to be excellent at rugby. Although I was shorter than most kids in my year, by my teenage years I had gained a more muscular (and I must add, fatter) physique than many of my classmates so it was great fun playing rugby against all these lanky kids who toppled so easily. It wasn’t even that I liked to win so much as just loved running into people and hurling them to the ground. They called me the Terminator because I could still be running along while having several kids hanging off me, I absolutely would not stop. So when my school were putting together a proper team to compete with other schools, my teacher naturally said I should go to the tryouts. Again though, I didn’t turn up, I didn’t want to compete.
But despite all of that, I’m probably one of the most competitive people I know. Probably because I’m just so bad at just about everything, so when I find something I’m good at, I really really enjoy showing off how good I am at it. I’m more or less totally talking about computer games here. I’ve been known to spend hours upon hours practicing fighting games just to be able to beat people who I know are decent. To this day, I don’t think there was ever a person who was able to actually beat me on Soul Caliber 2, and as for games like Gran Turismo, I still sometimes load it up and practice nowadays just in case I’m ever called upon to back up the claims I made so long ago about my ability.
When I discovered multiplayer computer games it was like finally finding my calling in life, the one thing I could really apply myself to. I’m not an amazing physical specimen and despite the fact I’m learning that I’m not as physically limited as I thought I was, it’s certainly clear I will never be a professional athlete. But I can game with a professional level of dedication, putting in hours and hours of practice just for the sheer enjoyment of beating other people. And I don’t just mean winning, I mean absolutely destroying the competition. I don’t just want to win, I want to humiliate my opponents by beating them spectacularly. Unfortunately because of this, people tend not to want to play games with me. And I refuse to play people at games I’ve not played before. That’s probably all really unhealthy in a way isn’t it.
But really what it boils down to is the fact that as a kid, I was taught by my parents that some people are good at stuff and others are bad at stuff, and if you’re not that good there’s no point in trying to be better at it, just enjoy taking part. It’s a completely negative way of thinking and if I ever have kids they’re going to learn from day one that they should always try to be the best at everything they do. Taking part is only worthwhile if you’re trying to win.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by sabian: I can't really equate to the 'wanting to lose' thing as being American, there is some sort of switch in our DNA that says we have to win.
It's pretty much the complete opposite in the UK isn't it. It must be a really lonely place being a winner, with everyone looking at you like you're some kind of sad freak. Even the ones that are really good and end up winning World Cups for us and making load of cash are carefully monitored and ridiculed in the national press if they wear the wrong clothes or put on a tiny bit of weight when they finally retire. Winners are definitely losers round these parts.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
Yeah, winning really is a bit of a sin here isn't it. It's like, it's one thing to be very good at something, but winning is just showing off. Although there is one thing worse than that - saying you're going to win, and then losing. That's the worst thing you can possibly do.
Actually, in a way, it's the best thing you can do. I mean, it's what everyone really wants to see, isn't it. If you've gome some arrogant chumpy, or group of chumpies, and they're all like "we're awesome, we will definitely win" then while most people would claim to support them, they'd all be secretly rooting for them to fail. Just so they can lay the boot in.
Want an example? Look at how monumentally unpopular Lewis Hamilton became when he started winning races, then the glee with thich papers reported that he had failed to win the championship. It was amazing.
[ 23.01.2008, 08:11: Message edited by: Ringo ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
Yeah, Britain as a society probably hates winners because every single element of life is a competition, and one man's success is everybody else's failure. I think what it doesn't like especially is people who go out of their to win things, but on a day to day basis, it's all a game. People are walking around thinking they win at fashion, at being paid, at being a good mum or dad, at facebook, and at ownership of goods, as examples. As long as you function on a basic societal level, you're playing. It's enough to make you want to go and live in a cave.
I've just fallen back into stating the obvious haven't I. sorry.
[ 23.01.2008, 08:29: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
Some good contributions to this thread today.
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
Exception, Benny the Ball.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
Benny is losing at tmo.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
True, but the moment it becomes a problem is when people start talking about trying to win at something. We all know that we're constantly trying to be better than people in all sorts of ways, but when you actually vocalise it, make it clear that it's your goal to actually beat people at something, then you stop being likeable.
I suppose there are exceptions. I mean, look at Tim Henman, always trying always failing, with a fanatical following. But then Henman was always pretty humble wasn't he. And I bet he wouldn't be half as popular if he was actually really successful.
[ 23.01.2008, 08:31: Message edited by: Ringo ]
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Benny is losing at tmo.
I left my 'a' game back in Spain.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
we need darryn to implement some kind of post rating feature, then we could really ratchet up the tension here, and watch as posters are favoured, then destroyed, by their peers.
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
I came second in fancy dress competition when I was about 2 - and although I have no recollection of it, I think this set me up to never want to win at anything - as a result I'm incredibly uncompetive, and as soon as a thing becomes a contest I lose all interest. That's why your cruel words about me losing at TMO is water off a ducks back.
ET-grammar, innit, and spelling
[ 23.01.2008, 08:44: Message edited by: Benny the Ball ]
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
Actually, I was going to post today that as I haven't been a great poster of late, and that I have other things happening, with the baby due soon, I should probably hang up my spurs and bid you all farewell, all the best, it's been wonderful, but what with the Joker dying I forgot all about it.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: It's pretty much the complete opposite in the UK isn't it.
It's because you reward losers. When England lost the World Cup, they were still given a ticker tape parade. Henman has groupies. It goes on.
In the States, it's not tolerated at all. So much so, it even filters through to the 'business' side of things. Our football (american of course) games will not be televised locally unless the stadium reaches capacity. So, for years Cleveland Browns never had a game televised because they were so shit, they couldn't inspire people to pay for tickets. Kind of a collective, "sort your shit out and get better or you'll bankrupt yourselves by not having sponsorship/advert money" .
This even filters down to even school sports. I remember playing football and if the team lost the game the entire team wouldn't be spoken too by anyone else in the school for days afterwards, even ridiculed by some teachers. And that's just a normal game. If you lost the Homecoming game or missed the championships, you were like scum. This was why so many of us played multiple sports so if we fucked up in football in the autumn, we could make up for it in the winter by kicking ass in hockey or wrestling, baseball or basketball in spring. Even the poncy sports like soccer and swimming were affected this way. Nearly to a person, no one gave a shit whether or not it was a soccer or swim meet, but if they lost, they weren't immune to the abuse that followed.
When people here whinge about the World Cup or the like and complain that these teams should win considering the money that gets thrown at them I just giggle because if you were getting paid £50k a week win or lose, there's no incentive to do any better.
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
The UK not only awards losers, it also vilifies winners, makes successful people into enemies, and loves to give a pedistall a good kicking in.
That and the constant lack of enthusiasm about anything is what is driving me further and further away from wanting to stay here.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
what are people unenthusiastic about, benny? Anyway, the flipside of the UK weary cynicism is the American earnestness that makes you wonder if people aren't idiots.
eta: I'm not suggesting that Americans are idiots. It just sometimes seems like they either hold a lot of shit in, or really don't see the dismal reality of what's going on.
[ 23.01.2008, 09:07: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Benny the Ball (Member # 694) on :
I work in a industry full of people that get paid loads of money and then spend the entire time moaning about every possible aspect of the job, which is depressing. I'm actually really enthusiastic about my job and love it completely, so to have to sit with people that agree to a contract and then spend the length of the contract moaning about the contract... well...I just need some time around people who enjoy what they do.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Benny the Ball: to have to sit with people that agree to a contract and then spend the length of the contract moaning about the contract... well...I just need some time around people who enjoy what they do.
Well, I don't know about your work colleagues, but speaking for myself, there's nothing I enjoy more than moaning about contract.
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
I've always been hopeless as sport, mainly due to the dread of letting people on the team down. No doubt a hangover from the hell that is school netball. I always thought that I was totally uncompetitive, until a friend pointed out that at things I see myself as good as, from Pictionary to pub quizzes to singing, I do like to, if not win, at least not lose. I like being nearly the best.
Anyone who's good at sport is a bit of a freak. If you ask me.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
While many of you look down your nose at those who are good at sports or those who are competitive... Is it an all encompassing sort of derisiveness, or is it ok to get a 1st at Uni or 10 A Levels?
I ask because whilst I hear nothing but, "look at that wanker Beckham... Yeah, he's good at football, but he sounds like a girl!"... These same people will be the ones going, "Well, yes, it's no surprise really that Bob's a bin man, he did only get 2 GCSE's!" or, "my son got a 1st from Oxford. He's made the village proud!"
Can't have it both way folks! Either people are wankers for being good, or they aren't... Cherry picking is for illegal immigrants!
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
I think it might be that people who win at being clever can transfer this 'clever' skill to being good at life, whereas people who are good at booting a ball down a field are just good at, er, booting a ball down a field.
Though it's not as if people who are good at being clever get an easy ride. See: bullying at school, anti-intellectual bullshit, er...
Not talking to a school team because they lose seems a bit harsh. Hardly encouraging any enjoyment in the actual sport, or indeed physical activity. If America isn't careful, it will get an obesity problem.
[ 23.01.2008, 09:36: Message edited by: herbs ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
I disagree...
I know several people who were the dog's in school, but were social retards to the nth degree.
One is currently working in some sort of admin job and lives with is parents whilst trying to divorce his wife who he has 4 children with, would have been 5 but he had the snip so the new baby was a REAL surprise.
The other is a stoner who only leaves the house when his supply of Doritos runs low.
Sure, there are sports people who struggle to make change out of a pound, but there is a vast proportion who do well in life because of sport. Whether it taught them to be confident or out going, or they realised that their 'career' in sports was finite, they planned for the future too.
I don't know. I just find it funny how things can be dismissed out of hand because someone "can kick a ball". Personally, I think the personal and social benefits of sports, in the long term, are better than learning how to use an abacus.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by herbs: Not talking to a school team because they lose seems a bit harsh. Hardly encouraging any enjoyment in the actual sport, or indeed physical activity. If America isn't careful, it will get an obesity problem.
See, now you are just employing some armchair Jeremy Kyle-esque pysochology to it.
The obesity problem is because we live in a world where creature comfort is the ultimate goal. If you are trying correlate pressure to do well and the obesity problem, Britain would look like a white Ethiopia.
What it did do is encourage people to try their very best at things. And if they were found wanting, they tried harder next time. 'Character building' is essential to growing up, otherwise you will forever think that mediocrity is good enough.
Posted by Samuelnorton (Member # 48) on :
This is the country that gave the world Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards... Enough said.
I was pretty competitive in sports, and often gave every ounce even in those activities where I was half the size of everybody else. And back then, I was half the size of everybody else. I could run, duck and weave pretty well though - so I was usually thrown out on the wing when playing rugby. I somehow managed to avoid being crushed flat, even in ankle-deep mud where movement was particularly difficult.
So no, I cannot remember any particular sporting humiliation - but this doesn't mean I escaped my school days without being dreadfully embarrassed.
The most notable incident took place during an English lesson, where we were all supposed to be taking down notes on Thomas Hardy's The Mayor of Casterbridge. Mr. Donnan's English Lit. lessons bored me terribly in any case given that the books on the required list were dull as ditchwater, but Hardy's classic - apologies to the man and his millions of fans and admirers - was enough to send me into a semi-catatonic state.
One day, the inevitable happened and I dropped off into a sleepy haze.
I was awakened by a volley of scrunched up paper balls smacking against my head - the key instigator being old Donnan himself, who was launching them like Geoff Capes on speed. I could never live it down, to the point where the story has cropped up at every class gathering since.
[ 23.01.2008, 09:56: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
Posted by dance margarita (Member # 848) on :
mediocrity is good enough, if thats honestly all youre capable of. i could be highly mediocre at sport if i hadnt been treated like a fucking loser for being shit at it, and hence decided for a substantial period of my young adult life that i would never do anything active ever again, unless it resulted in the provision of either snacks or cunnilingus.
[ 23.01.2008, 09:56: Message edited by: dance margarita ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
but if you weren't in sports at school, then you were probably missing out on being seen not only as a valuble person in school, but also getting sex, getting away with causing trouble, making your parents proud and receiving trophies, whereas the rest of us weren't doing these things. So, the natural jealousy is translated into dismissal. It's hard to think, I've done mostly what I was told to do, slaved away over books, followed advice and got okay grades, and here I am, trapped and miserable, while the bastards who were giving me shit in school, fucking around and relying on their seemingly god given physical dexterity to cruise through the system are now super rich, boning models, and living beyond the realm of the law.
It's just jealousy. I'm not glad that I'm not a premiership footballer. It looks pretty awesome. Compared to, for example, working as an insignficant cog in the wheels of a monolith, where your only thanks is being given a chair that you can adjust the height, amd just enough money to keep you in the baubles and trinkets that you hang in the over-cot mobile that you call your life.
You know, it's all good. But I doubt that Cristiano Ronaldo would want to borrow many elements from my life if he had the chance.
[ 23.01.2008, 10:10: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: It's hard to think, I've done mostly what I was told to do, slaved away over books... ... while the bastards who were giving me shit in school, fucking around and relying on their seemingly god given physical dexterity...
If I may be forgiven in my little spat of armchair psychology...
From my own experience, those who pour over books never 'see' the real world until school is over. (there are exceptions, but bear with me) Whereas 'jocks' are out there, doing it.. Doing the party thing, shagging everything that moves, whatever... It's about social bonds.
A lot of these people you loathe for being better off aren't necessarily better off because of their sport... They are cruising because the world is a social machine and if you can play the game, you do well.
On micro levels, the same can be seen in offices. Those who are good at office politics are usually the management even though the majority couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag whilst the 'underlings' are stuck in the mire and being ignored. It's not because you are being faulted for applying yourself scholastically, it's because you 'failed' to become successful in the social machine.
If you wanted to be rewarded for studying every minute of every day, enter the adult world as a scholar or scientist where you would be rewarded for your endeavours.
(please don't take my you's as YOU... Just being general)
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Most of the people I know who were good at sport at school are long-term unemployed or in prison.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Best place for 'em.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Actually, come to think of it, two of them are postmen.
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
But sport is only valuable as a social bonding mechanism if you're any good. If you're a bit shit, it's the polar opposite. It seems to exaggerate the less attractive characteristics of the human race: the physically more gifted are further rewarded with bonding, the opportunity to wank over biscuits, etc, while the enfeebled are left on the sidelines. Plotting the downfall of the jocks.
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
Yeah, especially if, as you say, sports people are severely ostrcised for failure.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by dance margarita: mediocrity is good enough, if thats honestly all youre capable of. i could be highly mediocre at sport if i hadnt been treated like a fucking loser for being shit at it, and hence decided for a substantial period of my young adult life that i would never do anything active ever again, unless it resulted in the provision of either snacks or cunnilingus.
quote:Originally posted by Tilde:
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: Yeah, especially if, as you say, sports people are severely ostrcised for failure.
But that's not the fault of 'sport'... It's the inability to handle stress, peer pressure, and failure.
Sport is just an 'instant' award mechanism where you know almost immediately if you are shit or not. Whereas scholastically, you spend the whole year, sometimes years, studying only to fail and then you go hang yourself whilst listening to the Cure.
Blaming sport and the failure to integrate is the 'simple answer'... I equate it to the same dustbin I put opinions like "rap music and violent video games are the cause of all this™".
Certain types of people have always been 'failures', in times of war, they were usually the ones that carried the flag or played the drums. Today, they just take their angst out on others.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
There's no way you can call those guys failures.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
I'm sure when the American team lost at Vietnam, they were very appreciative of the 'character building' reception they received when they returned home.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Most of the people I know who were good at sport at school are long-term unemployed or in prison.
That's the same for me. All the jocks at my school who played the machine like sabian suggests all got turbo bombed on scag and have no teeth. Actually, even the successful people from my school have had nervous breakdowns and shit. For some reason, old students at my school are shell-shocked like they were in fucking 'nam or something.
lolol: NAM mindmeld
quote:Originally posted by sabian: But that's not the fault of 'sport'... It's the inability to handle stress, peer pressure, and failure.
I'm not going to allow this. No sir. At school, you may be surprised to learn I wasn't very tall. I was much smaller than most all of the kids. Like Thorn says, you might has well have paired me up against grown men. It was a massacre. In rugby (admittedly my favourite sport) I would have to exert every last vestige of energy to catch up with someone, leap into the air, clasp my arms on their thighs/knees and pray, fucking pray I'd got enough power in my kamikazi detah move to get a good grip and pull the opponent down. If not, the result would be being dragged a good 20 feet and finally slipping to the ground whilst being kicked in the face a dozen time by spiked boots. The fact that later on, I would go on to have my towel thrown in the wet end of the shower block and bag emptied out was not due to my inability to handle stress, peer pressure and failure, but my lack of physical strength to knock the ***** out for picking on me for being physically different. I was in heaven when a stubborn ingrowing toenail refused to heal. The only joy I received was when having my toe stepped on purposefully, I could retort 'great now I don't have to roll around on the floor like a fucking gaybo, you gaybo' and be grateful of an hours worth of peace while the teacher forced the rest of the class to run around in the cold.
[ 23.01.2008, 12:19: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: All the jocks at my school who played the machine like sabian suggests all got turbo bombed on scag and have no teeth. Actually, even the successful people from my school have had nervous breakdowns and shit. For some reason, old students at my school are shell-shocked like they were in fucking 'nam or something.
'Nam? They were in Swindon...
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
"You're Wetleg's brother, aren't you?"
That's what someone asked me at Cubs.
Every kid dreams of joining Cubs, right? Or at least they did once. These days I expect kids dream of raping cubs with lead pipes on Grand Theft Auto: Suffolk Village but, back in the day, they all wanted to join cubs. It was going to be all about starting fires, learning knots and owning knives. Cubs was going to be brilliant. Only it wasn’t. Not our Cubs. I left the day they set us the task of cutting pictures out of a pile of newspapers and pasting them into a Royal Scrap Book - pictures of the royal family: the Queen, Prince Edward, that lovely Diana Spencer who was going to marry Prince Charles, all pasted into a cheap, grey scrap book, made of rough paper that gave me goose bumps as I ran my palm across its pages. Yeah, I left that day, thoroughly disenchanted with the whole Cubs experience. Top of the disappointment tree was their lack of a toilet. You had to cross your legs all night or head out into the dark woods somewhere and pee, flanked by a Cub leader with a roving eye who, as we all know all now, was a peado. So I held it in. The last part of the evening was a long assembly thing where we all looked back over the last few hours and plucked some kind of moral from of the evenings proceedings. It was a bit like the end of Batman the cartoon, where the Bat Computer would reason that the Riddler was right, in a way, to attack Gotham's fast food joints because "hey, kids, fast food is bad for you, but infecting the cheese burgers with his enigma poison was the wrong way for the Riddler to fight obesity" – except in our case the moral would be: "whatever your mission, Cubs, be it tying a knot or sticking glue on the back of Prince Anne's head to make something worthwhile and patriotic, a job done well is a job well done."
So we're in the long, moralising part of the evening, a few months before we've even got to the actual scrap book night. Arkala is making some speech about how learning to sew is a bit like dealing with other cultures. I'm desperate for a wee but daren't interrupt her in full flow, as she compares macramé to We Are the World. I don't want to go out into the dark. I'm holding my widgie tighter and tighter in my fist. My bladder is about to burst but I'm gripping the shaft tighter and tighter and tighter. My widgie has turned white. My head is spinning. I'll just let a little out...it's the only way...must relieve a little of the pressure. Just a few drops and...woosh. I let go of the pipe. The blood rushes to my head and a gallon of warm wee cascades down my legs.
Don't panic, comrades, your hero escaped intact. I was wearing shorts. I got away with it. With no tell-tale stain, somehow I seaked from the Cub Hut without anyone knowing I'd wet myself. A year earlier, my brother wasn’t so lucky. He did the same thing at Scouts. Admittedly he was old enough to know better by then but, well, their but for the grace of god 'go' I.
He wasn’t so lucky. Long, grey trousers, you see. He never stood a chance.
It was a pair of shorts that saved me from being Wetleg instead of just Wetleg's brother. There was a significant difference. I'm so much more confident than Wetleg. I was always more confident than Wetleg; well, ever since he became Wetleg anyway. More confident than my older brother. It was wrong. I bullied him. I bullied my older brother. Wetleg. It was all so wrong. And I think the defining moment in our sibling relationship can be traced to that single stroke of good fortune: I had shorts on; Wetleg didn't.
[ 23.01.2008, 13:04: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
Dare I ask what Wetleg is doing these days?
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
He works in a car body shop, mostly restoring classic cars.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I'm sure when the American team lost at Vietnam
It was a draw.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: It's hard to think, I've done mostly what I was told to do, slaved away over books, followed advice and got okay grades, and here I am, trapped and miserable, while the bastards who were giving me shit in school, fucking around and relying on their seemingly god given physical dexterity to cruise through the system are now super rich, boning models, and living beyond the realm of the law.
It's just jealousy. I'm not glad that I'm not a premiership footballer. It looks pretty awesome. Compared to, for example, working as an insignficant cog in the wheels of a monolith, where your only thanks is being given a chair that you can adjust the height, amd just enough money to keep you in the baubles and trinkets that you hang in the over-cot mobile that you call your life.
You know, it's all good. But I doubt that Cristiano Ronaldo would want to borrow many elements from my life if he had the chance.
How many of the people you went to school with and who excelled at sport are premiereship footballers. Is the number less than one? I'm sure that to become a world class sportsperson you have to put more time in than simply relying on your natural ability
I'm curious, also, Benway - do you see your life only in terms of the fiscal rewards that its dispirate elements can provide? You mention about slaving away over books, but surely you can appreciate the depth that adds to life beyond simple remuneration. I mean, you often show a kind of profound appreciation of great art - stuff like Paul Auster and Haruki Murakami - is that something you just give zero value for? Putting aside the kind of Nuts reader persona for a moment, is that something you'd rather never experience in exchange for a big house with a 60in plasma on every wall, which you kept using to watch Gone in 60 Seconds because you thought it was the best film ever made? I don't mean to lead you anywhere with that questions: obviously the answer might be "Yes. Gimme the chicks and the tellies". I'm just curious, really.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I'm sure when the American team lost at Vietnam, they were very appreciative of the 'character building' reception they received when they returned home.
Some 25 year old living at home with mommie and daddy who has never experienced anything about Vietnam except from video games or the odd "Full Metal Jacket" marathon throwing comments about the disgraceful way vets were treated when they came home means very little I'm afraid.
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: At school, you may be surprised to learn I wasn't very tall. I was much smaller than most all of the kids.
Listen mate... I'm not trying to broad-brush entire sub-sects of humanity here... I'm simply saying that there are those that can handle defeat and/or hardships and those who can't. The prats who shoot up a school because no one will play D&D with them were fucked long before they were bullied. Being bullied was just the catalyst that ignited the pre-existing fucked chemical cocktail in their head.
Yeah, you're short but you're also one of the most outwardly confident people I've met in Britain and someone that I genuinely enjoy spending time with, I don't take day trips to Brighton to look at beards for just anyone you know! So, yeah, your school journey may have been a difficult one, but it went a long way into making you who you are and you are a pretty decent bloke so, all said and done, it didn't do too much harm, did it?
A fact that may have escaped your notice as well is that I'm not exactly rail thin. I've always been a fat bastard which made my childhood a veritable hell. There were days when I wanted to jack it all in, literally. But I didn't because... I don't know why, perhaps I embraced what doesn't kill me makes me stronger attitude and when I think back at the abuse that I suffered (and still suffer today) for the benefit of other simple-minded people to make themselves feel better, I wouldn't change any of it because it has made me who I am today. It has seen me through things that many have never experienced. Gave me the confidence to live on my own from an early age. Allowed me the ability to take a job that I knew I'd hate, but would give me the chance to see more of the 'world' than others see in a life time. Didn't frighten me off from taking a chance and moving to a foreign country to endure the same sort of knuckle-dragging bigotry heightened by a British accent to make a life here and bring up my children in a manor that I hope will ensure their happiness and strength as adults. We do what we do because we can do no different. Those who peg out are too quick to find excuses. There comes a time when the ills of childhood can no longer be blamed for the adult that you've become, taking responsibility for the life you have now and making it what you can is the mature and honourable way.
And, just to clarify. I was rather intelligent and could have done exceedingly well at school. However, I chose to play sports and be socially active at my education's expense. I know that and with hindsight I wish I would have done a bit more in school. But the experiences I had outside the library were far more educational than reading about someone else experiencing them. So while I lament some of my decisions, I do not regret them.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by sabian: Some 25 year old living at home with mommie and daddy who has never experienced anything about Vietnam except from video games or the odd "Full Metal Jacket" marathon throwing comments about the disgraceful way vets were treated when they came home means very little I'm afraid.
Surely you're only - what? - 28? 29? What makes your experience of Vietnam so much more direct and personal that you can tell Ringo whether or not his opinion means anything?
By this rationale it would mean 'very little' if anyone here described the holocaust of the Jews as 'a bad thing' because they could only have learned about it through films and books. The great thing about this idiotic comment is that it comes in the same post in which you described yourself as intelligent.
Posted by Jimmy Big Nuts (Member # 895) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: How many of the people you went to school with and who excelled at sport are premiereship footballers. Is the number less than one? I'm sure that to become a world class sportsperson you have to put more time in than simply relying on your natural ability
I'm curious, also, Benway - do you see your life only in terms of the fiscal rewards that its dispirate elements can provide? You mention about slaving away over books, but surely you can appreciate the depth that adds to life beyond simple remuneration. I mean, you often show a kind of profound appreciation of great art - stuff like Paul Auster and Haruki Murakami - is that something you just give zero value for? Putting aside the kind of Nuts reader persona for a moment, is that something you'd rather never experience in exchange for a big house with a 60in plasma on every wall, which you kept using to watch Gone in 60 Seconds because you thought it was the best film ever made? I don't mean to lead you anywhere with that questions: obviously the answer might be "Yes. Gimme the chicks and the tellies". I'm just curious, really.
well, I'm not only talking about me, I'm talking about the general way that sport as a whole is often dismissed, and trying to come up with a reason. Sorry, I should have used quotation marks. I'm trying to imagine or crystallise the mindset that does, as sabian put it, look down on sport. I wouldn't say that I personally really slaved away over books at school. In fact, I definitely didn't, but I was aware that I had a harder ride in terms of bollockings and letters home than the sports people, because my lack of effort and imagination wasn't balanced by being lauded for other skills. But I wasn't studious, and I didn't participate in school.
And it is true that I've generally had this underlying (if misplaced) belief that if you battle along eventually something good will happen. Since having the realisation at 21 that I had to some work in the education system, I've tried to adopt a hardy, keep-on-suffering-no-matter-how-much-you-hate-it attitude That's certainly a terrible way to look at things, but it's indicative of a philosophy - the protestant work ethic could be crudely and badly referenced - that is was the general theme of education. It was never about going the extra mile, but just meeting the requirements - an A grade meaning that you have met the requirements very well. It must have sunk in eventually.
Sports always seemed like something chaotic that you either were very good at, and had this double life of away games at other schools and competitions that could get your name in a trophy cabinet, or it was something you just endured to remind you that it's nicer to be in a warm classroom where you aren't getting physically tortured, no matter how boring. Flair and talent never seemed like it was rewarded in anything other than sports, and maybe art, where you got to publically display your stuff. But again with art, there was something mysterious about it. It seemed like a club for people who were born with a magical ability. I'm not saying I had some kind of unseen genius, and I would be leader of the world now if only school hadn't been so stupid as to not make me king, but did always seem like a shitty system that encouraged compliance yet rewarded the non-compliant if they could do something for the school.
The comparison between people you know at school doing sports and people in the international spotlight isn't the point. The point is that they, the national heros, are still 'those kids'. Maybe it's growing up in the eighties, but football for me is quite closely linked with senseless violence and destructively unchecked traditional maleness. But they are free of the system, and that's what's most enviable.
I'd like to have enough money to be able to not go into work any more, or at least, to have time and backing to maybe think about and do something that maybe I can't currently imagine. But while I wouldn't neccesarily want to watch Gone in 60 Seconds on repeat, it's not like I wouldn't be able to read books if I was earning £25k a week or whatever it is. And it's not like my schooling gave me an appreciation of literature. Quite the opposite, it made me hate the very idea of literature, painting it to be a drab world of mechanically listing all the metaphors and symbols in deathly boring books. That's what I mean about 'slaving away' - engaging with shit you hate because there doesn't appear to be any other way. I think that's what school teaches you.
As for books adding depth.. I don't know. I don't know if depth is the right way of looking at it. I think books give you more angles, but it's not like you experience life in a better way after reading them. They don't make you happier, but perhaps provide tools for trying to understand things, even though you'll never actually understand anything. Good ones certainly become internalised, and of course they aren't of zero value, but still, I'd be happy to take a decade off reading if it meant I could have a one long awesome fucking party. And by that I mean, travelling, luxury, girls, carefree hedonism. And to have the strength of character to do it well, without breaking, and again, that's something that's born from those years of feeling like you were good at something when you were a kid. Obviously, there are very people in the world who have made it to the top, but there they are.
Auster and Murakami are good though. I've stared reading another good author, a guy called Mikhail Bulgakov. Recommended.
I hope that makes sense.
[ 23.01.2008, 15:14: Message edited by: Jimmy Big Nuts ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Surely you're only - what? - 28? 29? What makes your experience of Vietnam so much more direct and personal that you can tell Ringo whether or not his opinion means anything?
I'm 31. My dad is a Vietnam vet. My best friend's dad is a Vietnam vet. My other friend's dad is a Vietnam vet with no legs and missing hand. My 8th grade maths teacher was a Vietnam vet who still (I assume still, at least he did 18 years ago) flinched if someone dropped a book and it make a loud noise. I volunteered in my local VA hospital. I've laid flowers at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall.
Shall I go on, or do I still need to 'prove' that my experience is a little more personal?
EDIT: Not that I expect a reply. Almighty Thorn has spoken and with derision has passed judgement upon me that I am not intelligent.
[ 23.01.2008, 15:19: Message edited by: sabian ]
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Charlie Jowett...on his knees crying, spitting blood and teeth, people rushing to help him while his dad appealed to the umpire with "That counts as 'out', right?" Anyway. Charlie's a doctor now too, so I guess things worked out alright for him.
Ooh, I played against him at school and uni. Good leg-spinner, although he never liked the rising ball. And now I know why!
Anyway. I have a different perspective on this as my school was very academic, and if you played sport to any kind of level you were a thick meathead, until proved otherwise. Not even bothering to apply to Oxford or Cambridge just confirmed this, apparently.
The exceptions were the niche sports like waterpolo, judo, cross-country - these were acceptable diversions, as long as it didn't look like you were trying too hard.
There's a mindset within some sports that inhibits culture, of course - remember how Graeme LeSaux was gay because he read the Guardian? QED.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
No I think you pretty much declared your own lack of intelligence when you basically said that people who pursue academic success do so because they're too sappy and spineless to fulfil their dreams (the dream presumably that you feel is shared by everyone) of sporting prowess.
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
You could always be good at both.
Like me.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
My post was in reply to sabian, obviously
eta: alright carter?
[ 23.01.2008, 15:42: Message edited by: Ringo ]
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
No, what I said is that I didn't understand how sports is universally derided if you excel in it, yet being the bestest at writing an essay worth boasting about. Surely if someone is good at something, regardless of what it is, that person should be held in high regard for achieving more than mediocrity.
That was what I was trying to convey anyway, but hey, what do I know? Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
Yeah. It took a familiar name to get me to post again. How lazy am I?
Alright everyone?
Posted by Carter (Member # 426) on :
quote:Originally posted by sabian: Surely if someone is good at something, regardless of what it is, that person should be held in high regard for achieving more than mediocrity.
That was what I was trying to convey anyway, but hey, what do I know?
Like the 9/11 bombings? I know this isn't a very popular opinion to hold, but for a terrorist action, hoowee! That kicked some arse. I talked to a friend of mine's Dad, who flies for BA, and he said that for two virtually untrained pilots to hit something the size of the towers with a passenger jet is pretty ninja.
See also - Harry Shippers. Greatest ever serial killer - and he's a Brit. *sniff* Does the heart proud.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carter: Alright everyone?
Howdie... Oddly, I thought of you a few days ago... I can't remember for the life of me why now, but a few days ago, you graced my synapse.
One of the only things that ever have, save a few flashes of football and wrestling, apparently.
Posted by sabian (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carter: Like the 9/11 bombings? I know this isn't a very popular opinion to hold, but for a terrorist action, hoowee! That kicked some arse. I talked to a friend of mine's Dad, who flies for BA, and he said that for two virtually untrained pilots to hit something the size of the towers with a passenger jet is pretty ninja.
I was just impressed that they took over a plane filled with over 300 people with a box cutter. I mean, personally, if a 1/4 inch incision meant that I wouldn't plow headlong into a concrete pillar, I think I would have risked rushing the terrorist.
quote:Originally posted by Carter: See also - Harry Shippers. Greatest ever serial killer - and he's a Brit. *sniff* Does the heart proud.
Yeah, but he pegged out with a sheet in a cell... Quitter! He could have done some medical 'work' in prison, surely!?
[ 23.01.2008, 15:54: Message edited by: sabian ]
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by sabian: No, what I said is that I didn't understand how sports is universally derided if you excel in it, yet being the bestest at writing an essay worth boasting about. Surely if someone is good at something, regardless of what it is, that person should be held in high regard for achieving more than mediocrity.
That was what I was trying to convey anyway, but hey, what do I know?
But it works both ways though. Sports people adore stupidity and hate intellectualism (your posts reek of this sometimes, I don't think you can really disagree), and because being sporty and being physically strong and large go hand in hand, the more academically minded students tend to suffer intimidation. You probably think of this as character building, but for a lot of people it's a big big problem which stays with them for most of their lives. The only character traits this builds are insecurity, feelings of inadequacy, and neurosis.
For those with a predisposition towards sporting success, an environment which derides sporting failure and elevates those who achieve is probably an extremely positive thing. But for those who physically aren't able to compete, or simply have no interest in competing in those areas (the only sport I ever felt even remotely interested in doing when I was a kid that was taught in our school was Tennis, and I think we did Tennis about twice the whole time I was there) it's all negative reinforcement. Is it any surprise that the majority of people grow up to feel a resentment against our sporting champions. Especially when we see how much money they earn in relation to the amount of work they put in.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carter: I talked to a friend of mine's Dad, who flies for BA, and he said that for two virtually untrained pilots to hit something the size of the towers with a passenger jet is pretty ninja.
I dunno aobut that. I managed it on my first go on Microsoft Flight Sim.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
Is this the same BA that "heroically" only just managed to find Heathrow the other day?
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: Is it any surprise that the majority of people grow up to feel a resentment against our sporting champions.
Interestingly, in today's Guradian ([snorton]boo, hiss[/snorton]) Joe Queenan, writing about Heath Ledger, suggests that the middle classes love film stars because they're beautiful but resent athletes because they're ugly
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
And the good thing about thick sports stars used to be that once they'd past their competitive shelf life they pretty much went into meltdown and ended up working in burger vans or being shot by the mob. These days they earn enough money to be smug fucks all their lives and wave their 'brands' around, indulging egos by flogging shit to idiots on telly and making action films or 'conquering' America.
[ 24.01.2008, 08:05: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
I think it's probably more worthwhile than not for a school to have some sort of values system, whether based on sporting prowess or academic excellence - if only because teenagers will otherwise invent one of their own, probably based around looks, popularity and/or money. Given that the whole of the rest of life is about looks, popularity and/or money, it would be kind of nice to think that school diverted those competitive urges into at least fairly harmless dummy-runs.
While plenty of people self-harm as result of bullying about their looks, I find it hard to imagine anyone doing so because he let a goal past or jizzed up his mock-GCSEs.
Where there's a system, you can either buy into it - and pursue a sanctioned idea of glory and validation - OR, you can rebel against it... or at least tell droll tales of how you were second-from-last in the sack race in years to come.
In our school, pretty much everything was sneered at - being a sports nerd, being a swot - so 'popularity' was really the only currency considered worth pursuing. Hyper-relevant training for life in the corporate beast? Maybe! But I can't help but suspect that it contributed to my overwhelming feeling that school was a complete waste of time and my enduring resistance to feeling anything like nostalgia for that period of my life.
So, uh: GO JOCKS!
[ 24.01.2008, 08:49: Message edited by: ben ]
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
When is society going to collectively come to it's senses and ask, "What the fuck are we doing wasting all this time and money on schools and shit like that?" It's Victorian mumbo jumbo. I bet most kids learn a lot more by typing hours of shite on the web and reading wikipedia than they do from some bored and underpaid teacher who has to follow an increasingly directionless and random government curriculum.
One of my boys is about to do his SATS Key Stage X [whichever one they do at 11], and the school has just made us buy a load of sample test papers which we have to get him to do at home and then mark ourselves. They've basically suddenly realised that they've completely failed to teach the children properly so they've better quickly offload the responsibility onto the parents.
We'll do it, because we're middle class and still partially give a toss, but a lot of people won't. So these kids all go through the same school together from start to finish, but come out with wildly different abilities. And the only difference is made by the parents you happen to have be born with.
Posted by scrawny (Member # 113) on :
This could be interesting. Anyone want me to sneak them in?
Although not, admittedly, as interesting as this.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: I think it's probably more worthwhile than not for a school to have some sort of values system, whether based on sporting prowess or academic excellence - if only because teenagers will otherwise invent one of their own, probably based around looks, popularity and/or money. Given that the whole of the rest of life is about looks, popularity and/or money, it would be kind of nice to think that school diverted those competitive urges into at least fairly harmless dummy-runs.
While plenty of people self-harm as result of bullying about their looks, I find it hard to imagine anyone doing so because he let a goal past or jizzed up his mock-GCSEs.
Where there's a system, you can either buy into it - and pursue a sanctioned idea of glory and validation - OR, you can rebel against it... or at least tell droll tales of how you were second-from-last in the sack race in years to come.
In our school, pretty much everything was sneered at - being a sports nerd, being a swot - so 'popularity' was really the only currency considered worth pursuing. Hyper-relevant training for life in the corporate beast? Maybe! But I can't help but suspect that it contributed to my overwhelming feeling that school was a complete waste of time and my enduring resistance to feeling anything like nostalgia for that period of my life.
So, uh: GO JOCKS!
Everyone’s experience of school though is pretty individual isn’t it. Sometimes, when I tell people what school I went to, they give me a funny look as if to say, oh, bit of a rough school that one. I speak to friends of mine who went to the same school, some even in the same year as me, and their experience of the place is quite varied, some supporting the notion that it was a rough and directionless place and others remember it more fondly than that. I’m in the latter category, I thought it was ok. None of the knifings et al that you hear about these days. Sure there were scraps from time to time and some kids got bullied, but for the most part it was just, y’know, growing up.
But what I’m getting at is that I don’t agree that you have to put in place academic or sporting benchmarks to prevent bullying. In fact, I’m sure that in the US, where as we know there’s a strong leaning towards sporting achievement, there are still plenty of students whose lives are made miserable by others for not wearing the right clothes, not having the right friends, etc etc. If anything, all you’re doing is creating yet another reason for making certain groups of youngsters feel excluded.
Kids are kids, and whatever the situation they’ll establish their own social hierarchy. You can’t just point to one small element of school life and say that it’s going to cause or solve problems. It’s the natural order of things that some people are just shitty to other people. Whether it’s because a kid is fat or poor, or bad at sport, or likes unicorns, is actually completely unimportant, it’s just the angle from which the weaker kids are picked upon by the stronger kids as a means of establishing social dominance. Thankfully by the time we reach adulthood, most people have grown out of this, and those that don’t end up in pathetic middle management positions and drive Volkswagens because they can’t quite afford Audis, and wear ties with massive knots.
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
In my school I don't think there was a "jock" culture. We had sports, and there were kids that were good at sports - they joined the football team and stayed after school, maybe even played other schools in some sort of league. I don't really know, I didn't pay much attention to it. They didn't walk around the school with any extra respect because of it, they were just the kids that liked playing football and they generally fell into that clique.
Other people fell into other cliques; computer/electronic geeks, BMXers, druggies, posh kids, loners/weirdos etc. You just found yourself in a group of people at playtime who were at a similar social level to you, it was kind of natural sorting of personality types.
In my school the people who were the hardest or most rebellious tended to get some sort of respect from the other pupils, I suppose mostly out of fear of being beaten up or relentlessly mocked.
I must admit I have found sabian's comments quite strange, when he says things like:
quote:I remember playing football and if the team lost the game the entire team wouldn't be spoken too by anyone else in the school for days afterwards, even ridiculed by some teachers. And that's just a normal game. If you lost the Homecoming game or missed the championships, you were like scum.
To me, that sounds horrible. I couldn't imagine sending my own kid to a school which encouraged that kind of behaviour.
quote:What it did do is encourage people to try their very best at things. And if they were found wanting, they tried harder next time. 'Character building' is essential to growing up, otherwise you will forever think that mediocrity is good enough.
I don't know, sabian seems to indicate that having a pretty hard time of it at school made him into the man he is today, and he seems grateful for that, and willing for that tradition to continue. Whereas I think if I was subjected to the same treatment I'd have withdrawn from school more than I did anyway and become a total social pariah.
Posted by rooster (Member # 738) on :
I don't think that Sabian's experience can represent the US as a whole. It was certainly nothing at all like my experiences - smart kids weren't stuffed in lockers and jocks weren't given the cold shoulder if they lost Friday night's game. Talking with froopy and others about school daze I get the impression that I grew up in some kind of Utopian society, though I'm sure if you asked any American, they would hardly put the Miami school system at the top of the pack.
I went to a high school where they bussed the top brains from the other 100+ area high schools to converge in one place. Even the (American) football and baseball teams were nerds, and that didn't mean they sucked. They consistently won, and we even produced some famous athletes, including one who was named MVP of the 2007 World Series.
I don't know if being American has made me uber competitive, as I know other Americans who aren't, but I think part of what drives you to be competitive is a taste of success. Both my parents are gym teachers, and I had no problem with sports growing up. I also sang and performed (went to middle school at the school for the arts), and did well academically without having to bury my nose in books all the time (though I did a fair amount of reading). All this ease with aptitudes made me eager to compete; however, after reading your posts I can see why I wasn't very well liked in elementary school amongst people who were mediocre in one or all areas. Once I got to high school where I didn't stand out as much (since as I mentioned, everyone was a super-achieving freak), I was much more popular, but by then, I was into older boys, so really didn't give a shit.
Being good at sport doesn't mean I don't have embarrassing sporting stories though: my first ever synchronized swimming meet I was six years old, and the entire competition was kicked off with "10 & under solos." I had drawn the first slot. Paralyzed by nerves I stole away and barricaded myself on the roof of a nearby building and the rest of the meet was put on hold as they tried to talk me down. Over an hour later I finally agreed to get in the water, but was so wound up from the experience that when my music finished, I still was swimming the second half of my routine. It's kind of a crap story, because I'm not suffering any lasting embarrassment...though around that same age I dropped some pencil shavings on the floor in class and went down to pick them up. The entire class started changing "garbage picker." Their voices still haunt me in the occasional dream.
and FWIW, I'm still a little too competitive - I'm off to go swim now...and take quite a bit of pride in the fact that at six months pregnant I can swim a mile in less than 45 minutes (at an easy pace).
[ 24.01.2008, 10:34: Message edited by: rooster ]
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tilde: I must admit I have found sabian's comments quite strange, when he says things like:
quote:I remember playing football and if the team lost the game the entire team wouldn't be spoken too by anyone else in the school for days afterwards, even ridiculed by some teachers. And that's just a normal game. If you lost the Homecoming game or missed the championships, you were like scum.
To me, that sounds horrible. I couldn't imagine sending my own kid to a school which encouraged that kind of behaviour.
quote:What it did do is encourage people to try their very best at things. And if they were found wanting, they tried harder next time. 'Character building' is essential to growing up, otherwise you will forever think that mediocrity is good enough.
I don't know, sabian seems to indicate that having a pretty hard time of it at school made him into the man he is today, and he seems grateful for that, and willing for that tradition to continue. Whereas I think if I was subjected to the same treatment I'd have withdrawn from school more than I did anyway and become a total social pariah.
Yeah the trouble with that attitude is that it suggests that the only acceptable standards of success are those set by your peers. Imagine if you’d played the game of your life, played better than you ever had done. Spent months training. And still got beaten. You’ve given 110%, and by your own standards you’ve performed better than your ever even thought you could, you were just outplayed on the day. You’re then made to feel like a failure by your peers. To me it just sounds absolutely soul destroying.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by rooster: Paralyzed by nerves I stole away and barricaded myself on the roof of a nearby building and the rest of the meet was put on hold as they tried to talk me down.
LOL
There's nothing crap about that story.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: To me it just sounds absolutely soul destroying.
God bless America.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
And God bless you, Black Mask.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Ooh, look. A destroyed soul.
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
Oh god. Don't start.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
You saw that herbs, right? Completely and utterly unprovoked. I'm not to blame. I'm certainly not going to retaliate either. I'm better than that.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
BUCKAW!
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
Take it to sex and relationships.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
LOL
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
heh
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
Posted by Pepper (Member # 353) on :
Fags are cigarettes in England, ralph.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
Lol Ralph can't speak English
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
LOL
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: So these kids all go through the same school together from start to finish, but come out with wildly different abilities. And the only difference is made by the parents you happen to have been born with.
Taking this further, seeing as it's really taken off as a topic of conversation, it seems that Alan Bennett wants public schools abolished, as do a lot of people. But the reason they want them abolished is because of the unfair advantage given to children who go to these schools, simply because their parents can afford the fees.
This is just an extension of my previous comment about children from many backgrounds going through state primary schools together and coming out the other end with very different abilities.
It's because some children's parents commit a lot of time, and possibly extra tuition, and others don't. I'm sure there are parents who have piles of cash to spare, but most of the people I know who went to, or go to, independent schools are there because their parents have abandoned posh holidays, new cars, designer clothes etc etc so they can pay the fees.
If you go to a comprehensive school parents' evening you will see more BMWs and 4x4s in the car park and pampered parents wandering round the school than you will at an independent school. I have witnessed this recently as we've been looking at all sorts of schools for our 11 year old. He'll probably end up at the local comprehensive, due to being completely average, but we're trying out independent schools as well.
Seems to me that this would be another shoot-yourself-in-the-foot thing for Britain if we dumped yet another choice, another option for children to take. What with apprenticeships practically extinct now, we're going to end up with everyone being processed through the system in the same way, and that will give an advantage to the type of people who thrive in comprehensives. Which isn't everyone.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: It's Victorian mumbo jumbo. I bet most kids learn a lot more by typing hours of shite on the web
"I saw u tha day before babe I cnt believe you didnt tell me wat was going on…I wuldnt have cared wat it was or how long it took…I got all the time in the world 4 u…and u didnt have to do wat you did I was hear 4 u"
Yeah, reckon.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: God bless America.
Why, Did it sneeze ?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben:
quote:Originally posted by dang65: It's Victorian mumbo jumbo. I bet most kids learn a lot more by typing hours of shite on the web
"I saw u tha day before babe I cnt believe you didnt tell me wat was going on…I wuldnt have cared wat it was or how long it took…I got all the time in the world 4 u…and u didnt have to do wat you did I was hear 4 u"
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