This is topic Career Opportunities in forum Life at TMO Talk.


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Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
So, February 2009 is already upon on, and while many of you look forward to parenthood and lovely other things to make your futures bright, some of us are a bit stuck to say the least and have a slightly less cheery outlook - not that I am trying to put a downer or bait for sympathy for you who have blessings on the way, I'm very happy for all of you. But I'm not the sort to mope around and regret my current state of affairs, or put it down to bad luck - I'm a firm believer in that you make your own luck - I'm here to ask a little help from my many learned friends that make up this here community.

The cloud hanging over me is my current unemployment, and whilst the media would have us believe the world is firmly going down the toilet, there are still a lot of people hiring staff. For those that don't know, my specialism is IT, andd the market is still fairly buoyant, allthough my particular specialisation (iSeries - a system manufactured by IBM) is stagnant, and what few vacancies do arise are attacked like a flock of sparrows around a crust of bread, so I am usually beaten off by younger, cheaper and more fluent in Dutch-speaking candidates.

I am frequently not even getting past the application stage, with some agencies not even acknowledging my CV has been looked at - I did work as a recruitment consultant back in the 90's and I think my CV's are often what is technically reffered to as DIF'd (Dumped in Filing). Now I did learn back then how to write a CV, but I am thinking now maybe times have changed, and thus my CV needs an overhaul.

My first observation about it that it is 7 pages long - this is due to me having worked at many places, predominantly as a contractor - and I guess both these factors tend to put people off at first glance. Do you think less is definately more in this case? I think it is important to describe my duties at various clients as this may bring relevance to the role I am applying for, but what I often get is agencies asking what relevat experience I have for a particular role and me reffering them to a certain page where it is clearly stated, another reason why I am sure it is not read correctly.

I'm also concerned that the relevant technical skills (listed after the job experiences) are even looked at, and wonder if these would be best put on the first page? I guess even better would be if any of you have a template for what makes a good CV, especially for the UK and Dutch markets.

But away from the CV, I also realise that it might be time to find a new job - something different - now whilst that may be in or possibly out of IT I don't yet know, but I think having been pigeon-holed in the same job for more or less 20 years might prove a problem, even though I have vast experience in Finance *, Insurance *, Automotive, Aerospace, Pharmaceutical and FMCG industries amongst others, I wonder if that would carry me into possibly a new career in those fields?

(* note these industries bore the shit out of me so I doubt I could find anything remotely interesting in them)

Personal circumstances (as I have briefly mentioned before) mean I need to find a job pronto, as I have a very special person moving from the States in April to come and live with me, so to avoid her getting deported after a few weeks, I need to do everything by the book and before the Dutch Immigration Service will consider her application, as a sponsor I need to have a job.

I guess all it is, is that apart from a short spell in the 90's I have done nothing else apart from IT support, so I'm wondering how easy it is to move into something new, and what you would suggest to doing to approach a particular company about working for them in a particular role. I wonder how a CV should be structured to show I have a lot of valid experience in many fields, but not be over complicated in such a manner as I am branded an IT monkey for life.

Oh and if you want there is an online version of my CV here - if you have a few minutes I'd appreciate any constructive criticism that I hope may help me find a nice new career.

Thanks TMO.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
I've never applied for an IT job and things may be very different in that industry, but if you're looking to break out of that, I'd definitely try and get your CV down to two pages. I'm not all that suprised that agencies especially aren't reading it all through.

It might be worth having different CVs for different types of job - something like this might work for an IT role if you want to get into something to pay the bills and to make sure your special lady friend can get into the country.

If you're looking to go into something different, you'll need a totally different CV - and for it to be much shorter. I've changed career direction a couple of times and the trick is to pull out the stuff that's relevant to the new job you're going for. So if you want to be account director at VaaajHoefer, Holland's most exciting new media agency, you comb your CV for examples of where you've had to report to clients, manage a team, come up with creative solutions, and then leave out the rest of the role, even if what you're describing was only a tiny part of what you were doing in that instance.

If you want a change it's really about pulling together shreds of experience from otherwise irrelevant jobs and weaving it into something convincing.
 
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
 
At first glance my advice would be to put the bullet-pointed skills list before the employment history on the front page, as far as I'm aware general guidelines are to make sure the most important points are on the first page so that they actually get seen, and then no more than another couple of pages of more detailed information (employment, possibly courses although I think experience is more important to show than training).

With jobs it's generally suggested that you only cover the last 2 or 3 I think, or to cover no more than about 5-10 years, whichever better suits your employment history. Most employers are more interested in your more recent experiences than in what you were doing 15 years ago, as anything you were doing back then you may well be very rusty in now.

Main thing is to cover the important stuff on the front page though, if I'm reviewing CV's I've normally got a fair idea of whether think a candidate is worth pursuing by the time I've read the first page.

I really need to get my CV up to date actually...
 
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
 
Fuck me, I have no idea but just looking at all the information on your CV makes me want to turn off the computer and go and have a lie down.

I spent ages tweaking my CV over christmas and now I'm well happy with it. (my previous cv still had my GCSE results listed in prime position.

I reckon two pages is a good number to aim for.

Maybe you could cut some of the older stuff out, or at least trim down the details.

For example - the first entry under Career History is a BIG block of text, I reckon halve it at least or as physic says present it in a more concise, easier to read way.

People who read these things have to read lots all at once so it needs to grab their attention straight away on the initial skim through when they pick it up.

[ 03.02.2009, 11:31: Message edited by: Tilde ]
 
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
 
Yeah, what they said. Chop away like mad, put a simple list of the skills you are really confident with at the top, perhaps with number of years experience - HTML (12 years), SQL Server (8 years) etc. I've got most my old jobs down to a line or two description, with a paragraph or two for the most recent ones, and a couple dumped completely if they weren't all that.

I've also ditched my education section as it's entirely irrelevant now, and my personal interests sectionas I think that's more for people who are just starting out and don't have much work experience to write about.

The last few interviews I've done have made little or no reference to my CV anyway.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
Thanks for the input people - as I thought the length is the main problem and I should instead concentrate on the girth as it were.

Inspired somewhat by it all I've just gone and got ink for the printer, stamps and some envelopes and I think tonight I'll re-write the CV as per your suggestions, then select 10 major employers here in Amsterdam (I have a couple in mind) and write open solicitations to them. I'll include a copy of my last glowing reference as well for good measure, and at the same time make sure they are hiring so as to avoid the usual knock-backs due to the current climate.

Thanks again for all your valuable help
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
Good luck, Wayne.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
If you need it proofread and checked for spelling, grammar, and so on, drop me a line.
 
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
 
Oh, and make sure your covering letter is totally focused on that particular job and company. As if you've never even considered working anywhere else. Re-iterate the bits from your CV particularly relevant. If all else fails, sexual favours.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
No, just proofreading, sorry.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
Ok so I have condensed it right down to just over 2 pages but still managing I hope to get just about everything in, plus sell myself a bit better. I've sent it to a couple of lucky moonies who said they would give it the once over (well at least I keep trying to send it to one but the two addresses I have are no longer valid - Mart - can you mail me at mytmoid at the gmail thingy dot com?)

Next step is to start writing the applications - find 10 companies that are a) Hiring and b) local so I can maybe find something new.

Doing it this way is like being 18 all over again....
 
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
 
Money seems tight here at the moment, salaries are taking a right tumble so you need to have a think about the minimum you can accept in order to get you off the rock and earning so you can be the sponsor if you want to do that.

You must have a monthly income that is equal to or more than the relevant standard of social security benefit for families laid down by the Dutch Minister of Social Affairs and Employment in the Dutch Work and Benefit Act (Wet werk en bijstand or Wwb).

The standard amount is a net amount (including holiday allowance).
For the purpose of family formation, your monthly income must be equal to or more than 120% of the relevant standard as laid down by the Dutch Minister of Social Affairs and Employment in the Dutch Minimum Wage Act (Wet Minimumloon). The amounts are set out in the table below (volgende tabel).

And that's pretty low...
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
Ta for that Darryn - need to get on the case with that soon as well (else its a trip home or somewhere else outside of the Schengen agreement every 3 months until we can get it sorted)

Managed to write five personal applications today which are sitting here ready to go out, and I think I will be aiming for another 5 a day until something comes up, though its not easy finding people who are hiring just now - I think I mailed the top five recruiters at the moment, and I am just hoping that going through their HR departments will get me noticed. Fingers crossed something comes back soon
 
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
 
On the job front, what's the deal with getting a reference that you can just keep on file to send out to people? I've always just let new employers ask the old ones for the references, but in my last job I worked with this guy who is apparently a big cheese in the "industry" and I would really like to have had a reference from him as I know he liked my work. (He left before I did, so I had no need of a reference at the time.) Anyway. Is it ok to just ask someone for a reference, even if you are not looking for work at that precise moment, just to keep on file for future job applications? Or are they meant to be 'secret' or something?
 
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
 
I'm not sure about etiquette [in any situation, let alone this one], but I think most employers would expect to get references direct from the referee. Most the time, in my line of work at least, the reference is more about checking that you are legit and will turn up for work each day, rather than going into any detail about skills or personality. Most of my references just come from the HR office of the company and are very formal - "We can confirm that dang65 worked for us from Jan 2007 - June 2008." End of story.

More personal stuff might be requested when you are just starting out and don't have an employment history worth mentioning.

It might be different with other careers, but I don't think that passing on a saved reference would be acceptable normally.
 
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
 
Still no Waynster, then..?
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
London. Because I have worked for some particularly rubbish pricks I usually keep in contact with the best people to work for. On my CV I always state 'references on request' so that it gets to the point where they want a reference, I contact the person in advance and let them know they're in for an unsolicited call. For example, when I move on from this role, I will probably ask my last boss of our department to do the reference because I know he'll splice it with a load of 'pleasure to work with's 'oustandinding commitment's 'exemplary customer focus's's's while my current one will confirm I showed up for work and that's if I beg.
 
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
 
From what I've been told in recent times, companies (and presumably referees in general)aren't allowed to actually comment on whether you were a good member of staff or had any kind of disciplinaries these days anyway. Apparently pretty much all they can do is confirm that you worked there and what your job description was, that kind of thing, nothing that can be considered at all prejudicial.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Physic:
From what I've been told in recent times, companies (and presumably referees in general)aren't allowed to actually comment on whether you were a good member of staff or had any kind of disciplinaries these days anyway. Apparently pretty much all they can do is confirm that you worked there and what your job description was, that kind of thing, nothing that can be considered at all prejudicial.

Well that's exactly right, but compare a 'good' reference

quote:
I can safely say that it;s been a pleasure working with Rob Van Terencephysic. Never a day has gone by where Rob hasn't contributed to his workload with aplomb and zealous fury. His colleagues have nothing but praise for his contributions and lovely sparkling bonce and it's with a heavy heart that we saw him leave. One woman cried, tore her blouse and fainted. We wish him all the best for the future and have no doubt he will be a valuable asset to your company. Plus his cock's huge!
and

quote:
We can confirm that Mr Van Terencephysic worked here for the periods of blem and varnum. In this time Mr Van Terencephysic has had an acceptable attendence record.

 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Physic:
From what I've been told in recent times, companies (and presumably referees in general)aren't allowed to actually comment on whether you were a good member of staff or had any kind of disciplinaries these days anyway. Apparently pretty much all they can do is confirm that you worked there and what your job description was, that kind of thing, nothing that can be considered at all prejudicial.

Yeah, that's becoming an increasingly common policy. There's one guy I know who'll always give me a glowing reference, as he doesn't work for the company any more, but an increasing number of organisations are only willing to admit that you worked there, and nothing more - good or bad. There's been a couple of situations where places have been sued for giving a bad reference
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
I've just spent ten minutes watching CCTV footage of our night shift security guard getting super pissed on super strength lager and gin, trashing his desk, locking himself out of the building, then after realizing his mistake trying to smash his way back in, before being dragged away by four police officers.

9/10
 
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MiscellaneousFiles:
I've just spent ten minutes watching CCTV footage of our night shift security guard getting super pissed on super strength lager and gin, trashing his desk, locking himself out of the building, then after realizing his mistake trying to smash his way back in, before being dragged away by four police officers.

9/10

Any chance of putting it on You Tube? [Smile]
 
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
 
YouTube link please? Pleeease.
 
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
Rob Van Terencephysic

If I ever write a book I am so using that as my nom de plume [Smile]
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
I'd love to youtube it, but I don't know how to get the footage from the front desk to a computer. There's some kind of control system with a joystick but after that it's just wires into the wall.

One of the highlights was when he got a phonecall that obviously annoyed him greatly, causing him to throw the phone handset at the desk. It sprang back awkwardly and hit him in the face, which I think is what must've kicked off the desk trashing. Then he just laid across the desk and flailed his arms about for a while. It looked even more impressive in FF Benny Hill mode.
 
Posted by Deep Freeze (Member # 841) on :
 
I was just asked if everything is alright at home.
 
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MiscellaneousFiles:
I'd love to youtube it, but I don't know how to get the footage from the front desk to a computer. There's some kind of control system with a joystick but after that it's just wires into the wall.

Just point your own camera at the monitor screen. Then you can include the FF value as well.

No pressure though. Just do it whenever you get a spare minute.

* taps fingers on desk *
 
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
 
That's a bad sign. [Frown]
 
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Freeze:
I was just asked if everything is alright at home.

I think I'll go round the office here and ask a few people the same question. Bound to turn up some interesting responses.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Freeze:
I was just asked if everything is alright at home.

By who though? If it's your mum, then that could say something. Concern perhaps. If it's your boss it's just because you've started rocking a look not unlike Joaquin Phoenix. Giant bloody bumble beard. Skewiff hairdo. Obsession with gangsta rap.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
Pull your fucking fashion socks up benway for fucks sake.
 
Posted by Deep Freeze (Member # 841) on :
 
the director of the group, after a meeting said she needed a couple of minutes and then asked if everything was alright at home. I just said yeah, because it is. Still. Weird.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
I'm not kidding. It's probably because you look different. You can convince yourself you live in a modern free thinking world but in the eyes of the narrow minded, you're probably a freak who's losing control on his grip on sanity. One day you might just hurl your DS through the window and hurtle down onto the grey, smooth warm tarmac in the summer sun. Everyone will stand around and your boss will nod in self-reassurance 'as soon as he grew the beard, that was when I knew the troubles at home started'
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
Do you remember that Steve? Fucking fruitcake he was. Started out neat and tidy. Looked like the unibomber in the end days.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
To be fair, if you regularly look how you looked in that picture you posted, you are probably sending out signals that you're the type of person who has filled his home with carrier bags of his own shit.
 
Posted by Deep Freeze (Member # 841) on :
 
well.. that is how I look.
 
Posted by Deep Freeze (Member # 841) on :
 
anyway cherry has a beard
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
I once discovered that my editor had asked other members of staff if I was "alright". Apparently I looked "so bloody serious" all the time. It's true though. I am a very serious person.
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
It's true. I do have a beard. And I've only defecated in three of my co-workers desk drawers before they got into work since growing it.
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
Two things.

1) I always thought Cherry was a girl. It was sometime during the last month or so, that I realized she was a he. Sorry Cherry.

2) London, right before I left City Paper, the GM was talking about leaving (which was one of my big reasons for leaving. That and I wanted a degree) and told me if I wanted a reference to let him know. Well, I did and he typed something up. The best thing he did, besides giving me an amazing reference was to print it on city paper letterhead. And! On top of those two things, he gave me seven or so copies. Helped get me my last job. Although, my last job was horrendous.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes you can have references like that. I was the gm's right hand and was thrilled to have a reference like that. I miss him, as far as bosses go, he was one of the best.

Edit- maybe it wasn't cherry. It might have been tilde that I only recently realized is a guy. sigh, I guess that's what happens when one isn't around much.

[ 02.03.2009, 20:00: Message edited by: Amy ]
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
1) I always thought Cherry was a girl. It was sometime during the last month or so, that I realized she was a he. Sorry Cherry.

And the scary thing about this is that I've met and had a conversation with Amy [Eek!]
 
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
 
I got one of those random facebook profile picture updates about Benway yesterday. I thought his beard looked manly and rugged. Could use a haircut though.
 
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
 
I am really a man.
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
beard or stfu
 
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
 
And still no Waynster.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
maybe he got a new job and a new relationship and is too busy to post... ever consider that?
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Freeze:
well.. that is how I look.

Well that's fine isn't it? But to judgemental or narrow minded people they might consider your look to be the steady decline into hoboism. Sleeping on benches. Visiting Louise with a handful of withered and damaged flowers and an R. Whites man apologetic smile. Brushing your teeth with rainwater from a boot.
 
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
 
I wouldn't bother brushing my teeth if things had gotten that bad. I'd grow a beard and have unkempt hair.

Oh... [Frown]
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
Benway, ignore the haters man. Aint no shame in your beard.
I grew a particularly luxuriant beard...
 -
and ended up the leader of a well-known Sarin Death Cult...
 -
It's a win-win, basically.
 
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
 
That is a very luxuriant beard. Perhaps we should have a TMO beard-off.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
I don't think that would end well.
 
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
 
I am a pre-pubescant man. A boy if you will. So no beard.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
my beard is a bit more normal these days, but the Sarin's still going strong.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
mine's cropped quite short...befitting the corporate whore that I've become.
 
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
Well, I did and he typed something up. The best thing he did, besides giving me an amazing reference was to print it on city paper letterhead. And! On top of those two things, he gave me seven or so copies. Helped get me my last job. Although, my last job was horrendous.

Yes, that's what I'm after, just a big sheet of paper saying 'Anne-Marie is wonderful in various ways for example A ginger B smiley C amusing D textually dextrous D fellatiotastic' or whatever, thereby ensuring I can earn money in any position if you know what I mean and I think you do.

Not that I want to go back to work. Ever.
 
Posted by froopyscot (Member # 178) on :
 
Mine is still growing in. But I have big plans.

 -
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
I know you're just joking, but I did sport something similar (perhaps half the length) for a period during the mid 90's.

:shudder
 
Posted by froopyscot (Member # 178) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by London:
Yes, that's what I'm after, just a big sheet of paper saying 'Anne-Marie is wonderful in various ways for example A ginger B smiley C amusing D textually dextrous D fellatiotastic' or whatever, thereby ensuring I can earn money in any position if you know what I mean and I think you do.

Not that I want to go back to work. Ever.

Notwithstanding that you have two Ds there, I wonder if exes could be compelled to write letters of recommendation at the time of the breakup. ("A solid performance, even if the curtains didn't match the drapes. Fellatiotastic.")

These letters could be stock in trade at the local bar: arrive with a folder of the best material you have and slide copies under the nose of that hot thing at the next table.

Back on topic? - how long is a letter of recommendation good for? As an example, I have one from a former manager from a position I left in 1998. How old is too old?
 
Posted by froopyscot (Member # 178) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
I know you're just joking, but I did sport something similar (perhaps half the length) for a period during the mid 90's.

:shudder

I'm only half joking. I may eventually need to trim it in order to avoid having my daughter try to fasten pink barrettes to my face.
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cherry In Hove:
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
1) I always thought Cherry was a girl. It was sometime during the last month or so, that I realized she was a he. Sorry Cherry.

And the scary thing about this is that I've met and had a conversation with Amy [Eek!]
Ok. The last time I was in the uk was 6 years ago and my memory is shite. Did you go by a different name? If we had a conversation, then I surely took your photo and none of them say cherry!
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by froopyscot:
I'm only half joking. I may eventually need to trim it in order to avoid having my daughter try to fasten pink barrettes to my face.

What? You're not comfortable enough in your masculinity to wear a pink barrette in your beard from time to time? Go back to CT...
 
Posted by froopyscot (Member # 178) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
quote:
Originally posted by froopyscot:
I'm only half joking. I may eventually need to trim it in order to avoid having my daughter try to fasten pink barrettes to my face.

What? You're not comfortable enough in your masculinity to wear a pink barrette in your beard from time to time?
Are you really that stupid or just baiting?
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by froopyscot:
Are you really that stupid or just baiting?

Neither. Serious question.

And I resent the suggestion that I could be baiting.

[ 03.03.2009, 13:30: Message edited by: ralph ]
 
Posted by froopyscot (Member # 178) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
quote:
Originally posted by froopyscot:
Are you really that stupid or just baiting?

Neither. Serious question.
It was a joke, not some commentary on self-confidence. Anyone with half a brain would have seen it as such.

And you know what, ralph? I bet down underneath that plausibly deniable curiosity, you just saw an opportunity to take a swipe, but one you could try to brush aside. No, of course, I really was curious to know.

What bull.

It's really no wonder why you're held in universal contempt by absolutely everyone.

It's really a stunning achievement. You should be proud.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by froopyscot:
It's really a stunning achievement.

Thanks. I'm here all week. Unless of course we get hammered by another snow storm.

[ 03.03.2009, 13:35: Message edited by: ralph ]
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
So, how did ralph find out about tmo? Aren't you (froopy) and him (ralph) friends in rl? I mean, you both live in mass. and I don't know. I always thought you were sort of friendly in rl. And that maybe you (froopy) told him about tmo. I'm just trying to figure out what I've missed. Forgive me, if I'm mistaken.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
So, how did ralph find out about tmo? Aren't you (froopy) and him (ralph) friends in rl? I mean, you both live in mass. and I don't know. I always thought you were sort of friendly in rl. And that maybe you (froopy) told him about tmo. I'm just trying to figure out what I've missed. Forgive me, if I'm mistaken.

I don't know froopy irl. True, we both live in MA, but that doesn't mean anything really. I'm not sure what you missed. I'm not sure what *I* missed either. froopy doesn't usually go off like that. I must have pushed the wrong button.

No harm meant, froopy. Wasn't having a go at you.

[ 03.03.2009, 13:52: Message edited by: ralph ]
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
So, how did ralph find out about tmo?

I believe it was Louche who posted a link to this place from another forum we were both on.
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
What I meant was that I missed the ralph entrance. I always assumed it was froopy who told you about this place. I suppose that's why you should never assume anything. Small world, you two both living in mass.
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
Ok. The last time I was in the uk was 6 years ago and my memory is shite. Did you go by a different name? If we had a conversation, then I surely took your photo and none of them say cherry!

Yeah, it probably was about 6 years ago. I went by the name of SilverGinger5 then.
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
Oooh! I know you [Smile]

all these name changes can confuse a person, you know?
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
And still no Waynster.

Oh I am still here, and for those that genuinely care, thank you for worrying, and I am sorry for making you do so.

I'm in a bit of a dark place right now, hence my absence - a lot of thought running throught my head. All I understand is that in 3 days I will be 40 years old, and I have until then to try and work out a solution to the shit that is my life. Keep them crossed for me that I can because right now I can't see a way out. Else the supposed second part of my life will be as pointless as the first, and that isn't worth facing.....
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
Christ on a bike,waynster, its only 3 days until our birthday!? We're all getting old, aren't we?
 
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
 
In all seriousness Waynster I know what it's like to have no job and no money and how much it rocks your confidence when that happens, especially when combined with an approaching milestone birthday like that. Even though I don't really know you, from the stuff I've seen of yours, I think you have many talents, your photography, your web HTML skills and the connections you seem to have made in the music business and socially prove you're not some strange social retard. Not to mention your massive experience in your actual career.

As we all know, the job market is pretty fucked up at the moment, lots of people are going to have to make some pretty big changes to lifestyle and hang in there until the situation gets better. Sell everything that's not screwed down, don't get too attached to things like cameras and equipment, you can always buy back new shit when things change and if I've learnt one thing in the last 4 years it's that things can change very quickly. Like I say hang in there m8.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
also, how much of a milestone is 40? It seems like the be all and end all, but think about time, it's irrelevant. The things that bothered you or got you down ten years ago probably seem unimportant now. I'd try and remember that and not get too down about your current situation. Life sucks at the moment sure, 2 months from now you may be pulling in major coinage and getting the old chap wet on a regular basis with some continental filly. And on the plus side you've inspired at least three new threads.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
It is a state of the world at the moment. I was saying to someone 'People lose their jobs and directors still get pay rises and parties. It's a trick of the mind. To help us believe that everyones suffering. Sure there's a recession. but what does the recession matter to you if you're in Africa eating a boiled rug, or lying on the beach in California drinking margheritas? I know a dozen people here at my workplace that get paid to do fuck all. Fuck ALL. It's a bullshit tsunami and you've got to grab your surfboard and ride'

A lot of people are in a similar boat but you can't let it damage your stride. You'll be crushed in the stampede.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Unfortunately there are thousands out there who have made a successful profession out of crafting elaborate justifications for being paid obscene amounts of money for doing precisely shit all. Its mostly their fault economies are falling to pieces at the moment, and sadly because of the nature of their bullshit, they're the least likely ones to get the chop. While the honest, hard working people who just quietly do their job and accept their modest wage, are the ones hardest hit by it.

It makes you wonder what's really more important in today's world - having moral integrity or having the means to pay your bills.
 
Posted by rooster (Member # 738) on :
 
Waynster, you can always move here and take over my business (only half joking)...
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
Surely having the means to pay your bills has always been more important, hasn't it? Food on the table. Roof over head. Young'uns fed. Starvation and destitution avoided. Etc.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Indeed. But since so many people look at others and say that these people are being paid to do sod all because all they've done is lied through their teeth, the question is whether it's really worth not doing the same on principle?

What I'm really getting at is whether there's really any value these days in being a decent, honest person, when it seems like the ones who are doing best are doing so because they are opportunistic and quite prepared to step over others in order to get what they want.

[ 04.03.2009, 08:32: Message edited by: Ringo ]
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
Well, I'd love to be paid to do sod all. Nice work if you can get it, surely?

quote:
the ones who are doing best are doing so because they are opportunistic and quite prepared to step over others in order to get what they want
Again, hasn't this always been the way? When was this ever not the case?

Anyway, I know what you're getting at, I think. But 'doing best' financially and 'doing best' morally or spiritually very rarely go hand in hand.

[ 04.03.2009, 08:38: Message edited by: mart ]
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Can't you get it though? Isn't the idea that all these management types are really no more intelligent or skilled than anyone else? They've just arse-licked and lied their way into the position where they can call their jobs relatively safe and not have to worry about it.

If they can do it, why can't you?
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
Can't you get it though? Isn't the idea that all these management types are really no more intelligent or skilled than anyone else?

Well, I just don't know, to be honest. I feel so woefully inadequate about just about everything that I always suspect everyone else of being better at most things than I am. Which isn't to say that I hold big bosses in any great esteem, or have any more respect for them than anyone else, either.

quote:
They've just arse-licked and lied their way into the position where they can call their jobs relatively safe and not have to worry about it.
Again, I don't know if this is really the case. We/you are generalising about a vague group of people (I mean, who are we actually talking about?) I don't really know anything about.

quote:
If they can do it, why can't you?
I'm too lazy, not driven enough, not insecure enough, couldn't be arsed enough, always felt that life would sort of somehow come together and I wouldn't have to put in the effort... things like that.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
Yeah, I don't know if I can put my lack of success down to the fact I didn't kiss enough arse. I certainly could have tried harder to do a decent job; see if that worked. If I had to pick an obstacle to my greater success it would be my own laziness.

[ 04.03.2009, 08:47: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
No I fully agree, it's my laziness which has ruined my sad excuse for a 'career' in IT.

But then, you look at a lot of middle management and you think, they're no more skilled or intelligent than I am. If they're no brighter or more talented than me, then surely the only reason they're there is because they're able to act in a way I'm not. And in many cases it would be hard to put forward a convincing argument that they're harder working than me either. In many cases quite the opposite.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
Exactly. I've never been able to work up any real passion about my job or my career, so I am where I am. My own fault.

Or, my own success, as I would rather be where I am than sucking 9 to 5 cock and working for someone else, and all that.

But I'd much rather not be working at all.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
So, these middle management people, Ringo -- why do you think they got promoted and you didn't? Can you put your finger on it? Or is that the point, that you can't?
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
sucking 9 to 5 cock and working for someone else

Having worked for myself and sucked 9 to 5 cock, I'd have to say that sucking the corporate cock isn't all bad. There's the security of always knowing where my next pay check is coming from, as well as the added bonus of being able to get lost in the hugeness of a corporation and essentially coast each day away until I'm able to retire. On the whole, I believe I'll be sucking cock for the rest of my life.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
The only place I've worked where there were things like middle management was Mott MacDonald, and the woman in question was just ridiculously, insanely hardworking. To the point where it actually came across as a kind of dysfunction. She was a sweet person, and great to work for but there was this constant sense that she was about to keel over and die from exhaustion.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Well I think when it really comes down to it, it's like you say. They give more of a shit about sucking 9-5 cock than I do. I just come in and do my job and go home again. I'd be perfectly happy with it were it not for the fact I've seen less skilled people promoted ahead of me for nothing more than the simple fact they've stood up and said "hey look how awesome I am!" when in many cases it wasn't even true.

I wish I could be all self righteous and say that I prefer job satisfaction over a large wage packet, but at the moment I don't really have either of those things so I think ultimately I'm just bitter that there are people who are doing better than me and it's probably nobody's fault but my own for being unable to be the kind of people they are.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
Having worked for myself and sucked 9 to 5 cock, I'd have to say that sucking the corporate cock isn't all bad.

No, I'm not saying it's all bad. But given my experiences (which are, basically: running my own company, working for a fairly enlightened small company, and being a freelancer), I just feel happier working for myself -- and I earn less now than I ever did running my company or working for someone else.

It was nice knowing how much you were going to get paid at the end of each month, though, yes. Though, oddly, it always seemed to have gone in about five days. Being paid invoices sporadically throughout the month seems to make the money last longer.

[ 04.03.2009, 09:12: Message edited by: mart ]
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Again, I don't know if this is really the case. We/you are generalising about a vague group of people (I mean, who are we actually talking about?) I don't really know anything about.

I thought it was generally agreed that the term 'middle-management' was a spittable terminology that is synonymous with being an additional cog in an already over-specced and already bloated blueprint. Corporations are massively fleshed-out with people who stand around and intellectualise the process but don't actually contribute to the future goals of the business. They come forward with ideas to save money, when a nice swift auditable cut-back would be to quit. Where simply showing up is cancerous to the growth of the business. Middle-middle men. Managers who say things like 'well I don't know much about Information Technology, but I do know how to manage people' and that's from someone who doesn't actually have any staff. People who are not fired for incompetence but are moved into a role covered broadly by numbers of other skilled staff. The idea that you have absolutely no skills in the department you work in but at some point you did a role similar in title is understandable. It's a nice philosophy. But when did a concept, not a skillset become the grounds for a 40k a year career? When we make an IT technician redundant over a philosopher? I'm generalising because there are thouands of people like this, protected by a capatalist system of greed. I know most people would like a cushy job if they can get it yeah? Why not. I've been there though. It's boring as fucking hell. Anybody with a shred of integrity craves growth in some form. Because money is not your god. *bursts into hysteric tears*

[ 04.03.2009, 09:20: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
Anybody with a shred of integrity craves growth in some form. Because money is not your god. *bursts into hysteric tears*

MmmMMmm. What if you worked a lifeless job for 15 years because you were the sole breadwinner for your family and you subsumed every dream or ambition that plucked at your soul, so these other people would be provided for? Couldn't someone who did that be said to have 'a shred of integrity'?
 
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
 
I was so desperately unhappy in IT. I don't think I even realised quite how bad it was until I dropped the whole gig and started something entirely different. I thought it was down to a bad work environment and doing the whole 9 to 5 thing but really it was because I found it fucking boring. But then it was never my intention to get into that industry. I find whenever I speak to people properly passionate about IT, they bore me.

It was scary to leave my 'career' but I figured I'm young enough to cock it up and get away with it. Touch wood, so far so good. I find it far more motivating. But then its only been a few months, perhaps in a year I'll be a miserable wage-slave again. Who knows...
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
MmmMMmm. What if you worked a lifeless job for 15 years because you were the sole breadwinner for your family and you subsumed every dream or ambition that plucked at your soul, so these other people would be provided for? Couldn't someone who did that be said to have 'a shred of integrity'?

I certainly hope so.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
MmmMMmm. What if you worked a lifeless job for 15 years because you were the sole breadwinner for your family and you subsumed every dream or ambition that plucked at your soul, so these other people would be provided for? Couldn't someone who did that be said to have 'a shred of integrity'?

You could. You could turn it on it's head like that. You could say some people might be exploiting a system for a noble cause like feeding and clothing your children and that system is say the dole. Some people might do it for genuine reasons and some people might be there simply because a system allows them to. In this instance I'm referring to someone who is getting up in the morning to work in a large worldwide business with the sole purpose to earn their money off of the backs of other peoples misery, which I thnk is fair enough for a grumble.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
to earn their money off of the backs of other peoples misery

Eh?
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
to earn their money off of the backs of other peoples misery

Eh?
Oh don't be fucking naivé mart.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
Are you talking about something specific in your work, or something else?

I probably am being naïve, but it's also possible that you didn't explain yourself very well.

And how does it tie in with what Thorn was asking, anyway.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
to earn their money off of the backs of other peoples misery,

You, me, everyone here owes their lifestyle to other people's misery.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
hmmm, anyone else suddenly decided to 'up their game' at work recently, what with the current Global Depression looming?
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Actually to be honest, I've just encountered a couple of the people I'm talking about and I've got to say, I am glad I'm not like them. Couple of people came over, asking for toners for their printer. When they found they would have to wait a short while because the guy who gives them out wasn't around, they got genuinely angry about it.

Just imagine that for a second. Being in a position where, because your job was the most important thing in your life, this job which is ultimately a completely pointless thing which does nothing for the furtherment of humanity, you are driven to actual strong negative emotion because you can't have something your own way. Imagine standing there, going red in the face, lips all tight and eyes flashing with rage, telling something indignantly that it's completely unnacceptable to have to wait a short while for your toner to be delivered to you.

No amount of money is worth being the kind of person who thinks its ok to bark angrily at someone because of something so trivial as fucking toners.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
And they did that thing with your name. You know where, before reluctantly leaving, they insist on knowing your name. Said almost as some kind of threat.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
fuck you Ringo, toners is the only way IO get to flex my Managerial muscle.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
I thought it was generally agreed that the term 'middle-management' was a spittable terminology that is synonymous with being an additional cog in an already over-specced and already bloated blueprint. Corporations are massively fleshed-out with people who stand around and intellectualise the process but don't actually contribute to the future goals of the business. They come forward with ideas to save money, when a nice swift auditable cut-back would be to quit. Where simply showing up is cancerous to the growth of the business. Middle-middle men. Managers who say things like 'well I don't know much about Information Technology, but I do know how to manage people' and that's from someone who doesn't actually have any staff. People who are not fired for incompetence but are moved into a role covered broadly by numbers of other skilled staff. The idea that you have absolutely no skills in the department you work in but at some point you did a role similar in title is understandable. It's a nice philosophy. But when did a concept, not a skillset become the grounds for a 40k a year career? When we make an IT technician redundant over a philosopher? I'm generalising because there are thouands of people like this, protected by a capatalist system of greed. I know most people would like a cushy job if they can get it yeah? Why not. I've been there though. It's boring as fucking hell. Anybody with a shred of integrity craves growth in some form. Because money is not your god. *bursts into hysteric tears*

Sums it up perfectly, and kudos for the way that brilliantly explains most of the companies I have worked for. Reading that I recalled so many people I have worked under - incompetant idiots who are nothing more than a waste on the air that the people making the effort to get things done, whilst these complete and utter waste on space, resources and finances do little more than sit around and only appear to take the credit for a job well done by everyone who actually did the work, It's a crying shame that it's these people who make decisions so often are the ones who make a mess of it all for the rest of us. What is worse is that for me personally, it is some of these idiots who are chucking my CV in the bin rather than giving me an opportunity to show how good I could be for a company as a prospective employee.

More than once in my supposed "career" I have been used as the scapegoat, and at least twice have lost my job because of the lack of integrity and ability of those above me. At Yamaha I managed to save a huge project through what I was told was my diligence and will to not let a problem go unsolved. I was congratulated from people right up to board level in Japan, and my immediate managers incompetance was rewarded to him by his demotion - and in return he fired me. He continues to work there, no doubt still fucking things up yet I am struggling to find work anywhere. And that was not the last time - perhaps I should just reword my CV from IT consultant to scapegoat....

It does seem to me that the last thing you should bring to a job is a sense of integrity. Whilst I have always tried to gain respect from my peers, I fear this has probably been my downfall. I have seen so many people rise in the ranks purely and simply through sucking the corporate cock, something that I detest with a passion and goes against every ounce of morality in my body, yet it's the want of being a better man that has landed me up an unemployable waste on the system.

Perhaps it's time to rewrite my CV - remove all of the IT skills I have worked so hard for during the last 20 years, and replace it all for the words "will swallow".

It's bad enough I can't get a job. It's even worse when I realise that my current depression caused by the situation I am in will only be exacerbated by actually finding a job and facing the same corporate bullshit that I have had to endure for so long.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
to earn their money off of the backs of other peoples misery,

You, me, everyone here owes their lifestyle to other people's misery.
Well, yes but I'll get onto that:

quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Are you talking about something specific in your work, or something else?

I probably am being naïve, but it's also possible that you didn't explain yourself very well.

And how does it tie in with what Thorn was asking, anyway.

I'm generalising based on specific experience of most big businesses. Maybe you've been lucky and not once in your life have you been so totally disgusted by overhearing the sort of disdain I have for other human beings by management. It's highly probable that I didn't explain myself properly. I'm hardly the most articulate of people, but I never thought it was a concept that was so readily difficult to understand and that I'd have to, I don't know educate someone that in the business world there are people who *gasp* exploit the system.

I'm not sure how it ties in with what Thorn was saying. he seemed to be suggesting that within the specific types of capitalism and greed (unecessary middle-management) there might be some...h...honest people and what my stance would be in that situation, but it seemed like a weird sort of detraction because he already knows I'm generalising so....? I don't know but in mong language I almost feel like he's trying to trip me up by saying that you can't tell the 'good' people from the 'bad' people but that would be stating the obvious.

quote:
naïve
lol, pwned [Frown]

[ 04.03.2009, 10:07: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
this thing about not 'sucking corporate cock'. If corporate office politics get you down, don't work for a corporation. Don't apply to one in the first place. Be a rebel, really stick it to the man, work for yourself.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
I almost feel like he's trying to trip me up by saying that you can't tell the 'good' people from the 'bad' people but that would be stating the obvious.

I wasn't trying to trip you up. I was just picking up on the statement "anyone with a shread of integrity needs growth". It struck me that if you were sacrificing personal development/ challenge/ whatever because someone depended on you, then that person could still be said to have some integrity.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
There's a fine line. I don't want to end up like Tilde.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by McDirts:
this thing about not 'sucking corporate cock'. If corporate office politics get you down, don't work for a corporation. Don't apply to one in the first place. Be a rebel, really stick it to the man, work for yourself.

Or for one of the thousands of companies that isn't a corporation.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
I think Thorn was just saying that a lot of people, if not the vast majority of people, do a job that they don't like, or feel any warmth for, or can't stand, or know is ethically dubious, or is just plain shitty, because having a job is how you provide for yourself and your family.

Integrity or a moral stance or desiring growth doesn't come into it -- they just need to ensure they can feed those they are responsible for.

And what I didn't understand your comment was that you mentioned people who go to work everyday "with the sole purpose to earn their money off of the backs of other people's misery", which seemed rather, I dunno, specific, maybe, to something you had experienced. Do people really do this? Or do they just go to work, and try to keep their job, because they have a mortgage to pay, a car loan to pay off, college fees to pay, and so on. Other people's misery surely comes after their own 'needs' and desires.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by McDirts:
this thing about not 'sucking corporate cock'. If corporate office politics get you down, don't work for a corporation. Don't apply to one in the first place. Be a rebel, really stick it to the man, work for yourself.

Oh believe me I would love to, but what? If often dreamed of starting something up, being the boss and all that, but lacking in any particular skill that is really marketable, a distinct lack of an education and no financial backing it makes it all no more than a pipe dream. Not that I am trying to put myself out of the idea, but in reality the negatives far outweigh the positives, especially in todays modern market climate. Believe me I spend a great deal of time trying to figure out what people want, but yet someone has already got there first. I guess I just wasn't born with the imagination to come up with the idea....
 
Posted by Tilde (Member # 1215) on :
 
I'm thinking of going back to my "become a internet poker professional" plan

[ 04.03.2009, 10:22: Message edited by: Tilde ]
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
I'm eating a corporate doughnut that some poor soul had to buy because she forgot to book her birthday as holiday. It's tasty, but is making me feel a bit guilty.
 
Posted by squeegy (Member # 136) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Other people's misery surely comes after their own 'needs' and desires.

Yeah. A person could easily fit into both these categories. Needing/wanting to support their family as best they can by holding down a shitty, uninspiring job. But at the same time being a complete **** at work. And if sucking the corporate cock gets your personal life into a better position, why not? If its the reason you have the job in the first place, might as well make it work for you too.
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
It's a very apt doughnut.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I wasn't trying to trip you up. I was just picking up on the statement "anyone with a shread of integrity needs growth". It struck me that if you were sacrificing personal development/ challenge/ whatever because someone depended on you, then that person could still be said to have some integrity.

Alright, I'm on a busy schedule because middle management have me over a cauldron as I type. I see what you're saying. But isn't that a choice somebody would make for themselves? Nobody has to stunt themselves creatively to supply food and shelter do they? In 2009? maybe in Wigan. I know I was generalising but wouldn't that go the whole other direction where we start talking about very extreme specifics? Maybe he's got depression or his wife is in a wheelchair and the baby is sick and the loan sharks are onto him. I've sat in the pub with people who gloat about how they play the system. Maybe it's me who is nyeeve.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
Nobody has to stunt themselves creatively to supply food and shelter do they?

I think the vast majority of the world's population has to do this, yes.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Maybe it's simply that people like me lack any real motivation or drive which would carry us forward on whatever path it is we've chosen for ourselves, and it's easier to simply assume that if people are more successful, it's because they've done it by being complete douchebags rather than just being better at specific elements of the job than we are.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
Or for one of the thousands of companies that isn't a corporation.

To be fair it probably seems I'm just belly-aching. I do have plans to go and work for a much smaller company, with about 1% of the user base I already work for. For nearly 10 grand more. So I do have options that I'm already exploring, but for some people like Jayce and his Wheeled Wife, it sometimes isn't an option. I can dig that.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
There's a job going at a place I'd actually sell a bollock to work at. A job I could do standing on my head which I know I'd love, and as part of a small team of people I know I'd really enjoy working with. Unfortunately the pay is about 10k shy of what I need to be earning so it'sout of the question. So in a way, I'm putting money ahead of my own happiness already. Or something.

But on the other hand, the meagre increase in wages I might get isn't enough of an incentive for me to get really enthusiastic about my job and spend a load of time with my boss talking about the direction of the company and how awesome I am at what I do. So I guess you could say my job at the moment is the right balance between unhappiness and wealth for me to comfortably continue. I don't like it, and I'm not particularly happy here, but it doesn't make any unreasonable demands of me so I can carry on doing it indefinitely. Plus there's job security here which at the moment is one of the most valuable things you could have.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
There's a job going at a place I'd actually sell a bollock to work at... Unfortunately the pay is about 10k shy of what I need to be earning so it'sout of the question.

With this in mind, what's the going rate of a ringobollock?
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
So Ranulph, what's a bollock worth to you?
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Realisticaly, I think anything over £7000 and I'd seriously consider parting with one of my testes.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
Name your price, says Ranulph Fiennes.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
And what I didn't understand your comment was that you mentioned people who go to work everyday "with the sole purpose to earn their money off of the backs of other people's misery", which seemed rather, I dunno, specific, maybe, to something you had experienced. Do people really do this?

Well sure, but I think, if you're consciously aware that you're not bringing any skills to the table, but dude you've got a sweet deal and that when other people lose their jobs who are highly trained individuals over yourself who is winging it and off the radar, then yeah, you're part of the problem of the economy collapsing. Do you remember the City Boy articles? The gist of it was 'look how much money I get paid! I don't deserve it, but you would wouldn't you? You would?' which to my surprise some ***** lapped right up. In fact, he has a section in the paper where he reminisces about his days as a city boy alongside doom and gloom headlines 'save money on water. Eat teabags!'

I think they do this. I've witnessed it. I'd almost want to be away from the experience. It's wholly depressing and dispiriting.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
Just to clear the air, I don't want to come across as some kind of Wolfie Smith or just aggro pumped pixie of people power. I just think it's a shocking personality trait of human beings to still fuck another over with a sort of enforced apologist smile, not for food, shelter or the bristling fire in the night sky, but for Ralph Lauren shirts or a big TV. Or for a car that goes BROOOOOM. Or better than that. VRRRROMMMMMMMM! even.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
But surely no one is consciously aware that they're not bringing any skills to the table. Everyone thinks they do something, useful, don't they? That their job is vindicated and they don't deserve to be the ones let go. Right?

Maybe I am naïve. I dunno.

Do you remember the City Boy articles?, you ask. No, sorry.

quote:
I think they do this. I've witnessed it. I'd almost want to be away from the experience. It's wholly depressing and dispiriting.
Hang on, are you talking about bankers and City traders and stuff, or these middle managers in big boring companies who don't appear to do much?
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
I'm talking about certain sections of any big business. They're all there. The chaff. Just floating around, gabbing about and doing nothing. They might as well spend all their time talking bullshit and confusing people on the internet for one example.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Do you remember the City Boy articles?, you ask. No, sorry.

That was a bit London-centric of me there. Sorry.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
Do you remember the City Boy articles? The gist of it was 'look how much money I get paid! I don't deserve it, but you would wouldn't you? You would?' which to my surprise some ***** lapped right up. In fact, he has a section in the paper where he reminisces about his days as a city boy alongside doom and gloom headlines 'save money on water. Eat teabags!'

I think they do this. I've witnessed it. I'd almost want to be away from the experience. It's wholly depressing and dispiriting.

If you're blaming cityboys for the economic crisis doesn't that mean you have to credit them with the boom time, too? By the logic of which they actually earned their money. And er, if you look at the big financial centres in London I don't think anyone's going "lol, money," at the moment I think most traders and brokers and workers in these companies are staring down the barrel of joblessness more than any other sector. Speakign of which, I heard a great joke the other day. "What's the definition of optimism? A banker who irons five shirts on a Sunday night."*

*I know this is technically an example, rather than a definition, but it seems to flow better, somehow

[ 04.03.2009, 11:35: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
And er, if you look at the big financial centres in London I don't think anyone's going "lol, money,"

I have to go, sadly because I'd love to flounder around and embarrass myself some more, but for those who missed it, here's about 100 entries of lol money!

[ 04.03.2009, 11:12: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Wasn't the boom time based on some really sketchy dealings done by merchant bankers though? High risk transactions made to earn themselves the highest possible commission without any real consideration given to the broader consequences. And then tits went inevitably skywards when these high risk customers defaulted on their debts, and then massive financial institutions suddenly found themselves with nothing to trade and then went belly-up. Which had a knock-on effect which was one of the largest contributing factors to the current global economic crisis?

So yeah, city traders were definitely responsible for the boom times, but they were only doing so because it was in their interests and their greed and selfishness ultimately fucked the whole world over, so I wouldn't be giving them too much credit (arf arf)
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
I have to go, sadly because I'd love to flounder around and embarrass myself some more, but for those who missed it, here's about 100 entries of lol money! [/QB][/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? A website that looks like it was specifically designed to be the next Belle du Jour media London fad?

[ 04.03.2009, 11:18: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
Thorn davis in city-boys-are-vomit-inducing wankery-in-control-of-the-economy shocker.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
Wasn't the boom time based on some really sketchy dealings done by merchant bankers though? High risk transactions made to earn themselves the highest possible commission without any real consideration given to the broader consequences. And then tits went inevitably skywards when these high risk customers defaulted on their debts, and then massive financial institutions suddenly found themselves with nothing to trade and then went belly-up. Which had a knock-on effect which was one of the largest contributing factors to the current global economic crisis?

So yeah, city traders were definitely responsible for the boom times, but they were only doing so because it was in their interests and their greed and selfishness ultimately fucked the whole world over, so I wouldn't be giving them too much credit (arf arf)

The UK's economic growth was about a bit more than that - even the simple fact that London became a major economic centre over the past 15 years had a major impact. The sub-prime stuff was a growth area, but it was far from the only reason things were going well. And as I understand it the problem came more from America, where reposessed properties didn't have the same value and blah dee blah. Coupled with a hysterical reaction from the papers, which saw a massive loss of faith in the stock market, the situation got a lot worse.

I'm not saying 'hey remember guys, we owe all our flatscreen TVs to the bankers, let's support them' just that if you were to say, "they cost us the economy!" it would mean admitting that a coupla decades of growth were thanks to them, too. And when things turn around, you'd have to credit them with that too. To be honest, the reasons for the boom, and for the meltdown were so diverse and complex it's impossible to single out a group of people what done made it happen. You can read more about this and the unpredictable nature of the world in Dance With Chance, available this April from Oneworld Publications. Order from the website with voucher code OWDWC09 for a 25% discount.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
Thorn davis in city-boys-are-vomit-inducing wankery-in-control-of-the-economy shocker.

What I'm saying is that it's not written by a cityboy, it's written by a journalist looking for a book deal.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Come off it, the whole system is driven by greed and self-interest. The fact that the easy availability of credit fuelled consumer confidence is an accidental bi-product.

The strength of the UK economy is affected in a major way by the conditon of the US economy so when sub-prime lending in the US caused a fan/shit interface, a fair amount of it sprayed our way. And because of the aforementioned nature of our largest financial institutions, we weren't in a position to cover ourselves.

I'm not saying it's the only reason why things are bad at the moment. I'm saying it's a contributing factor. The greed of individuals has had a notable knock-on effect on the job security of large chunks of our nation and that's not really on.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ringo:
Come off it, the whole system is driven by greed and self-interest.

I agree, but the greed and self-interest of the system are also the reasons why most of us have jobs, why most of us can afford plenty of clothes, why we have easily affordable TVs, cars and all the rest of it. Greed and self interest is the engine that drives this, and it seems... absurd to complain that it somehow... hasn't done it's work properly when it glitches out, given that it's provided our society with a level of luxury unprecedented throughout the history of humanity.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
This is true, I currently have three, that's three, different types of Deodorant to choose from of a morning and use an Oral B Sonic Toothbrush to clean my teeth with. That's some high living shit right there.
Did my Great Great Grandad have that? No. He had a Sub-Saharan African slave to fan him down when he began perspiring, but that's not the point.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by McDirts:

Did my Great Great Grandad have that? No. He had a Sub-Saharan African slave to fan him down when he began perspiring, but that's not the point.

He would probably have been in a tiny minority of the upper class, though. Never before has your average schlub had so much kickass shit for so little. I'll bet he didn't have a flat panel TV and surround sound system.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I'll bet he didn't have a flat panel TV and surround sound system.

I have neither of those. Is that how you define a society with a level of luxury unprecedented throughout the history of humanity? Flat panel TV's?
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
No, ralph. It's just an easy way to refer to modern consumerist society's obsession with and delight in certain commodities and lifestyles.
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I agree, but the greed and self-interest of the system are also the reasons why most of us have jobs, why most of us can afford plenty of clothes, why we have easily affordable TVs, cars and all the rest of it.

I reason I can't play x bocks is because I can't afford a TV [Frown]
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
Is that how you define a society with a level of luxury unprecedented throughout the history of humanity? Flat panel TV's?

You'd understand if you had one, ralph.
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ralph:
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
I'll bet he didn't have a flat panel TV and surround sound system.

I have neither of those. Is that how you define a society with a level of luxury unprecedented throughout the history of humanity? Flat panel TV's?
It's an example of a needless expense, so yeah it's a luxury. Other factors I had in my head were things like availability of healthcare, clothing, education. Things like how easy it is to afford fish and meat and fuel. Or you could think about it in terms of waste. The amount of people that can throw away the amount of stuff we do gives you a clue about how pampered we are.
 
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
I reason I can't play x bocks is because I can't afford a TV [Frown]

You can plug him in computor moniter, no?
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
It's an example of a needless expense, so yeah it's a luxury. Other factors I had in my head were things like availability of healthcare, clothing, education. Things like how easy it is to afford fish and meat and fuel. Or you could think about it in terms of waste. The amount of people that can throw away the amount of stuff we do gives you a clue about how pampered we are.

That's better. Thanks.
 
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
 
Yeah you're absolutely right, people are more affluent today than they have been at any point in hostory. But there's a limit, right? A point at which greed overloads the system and it all goes tits up. It's all well and good me sitting here with a healthy bank account and HD screens up the arse, but when potentially hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country are facing the prospect of a long and difficult unemployment, I think it's only fair to turn around and say that the people in a position to manipulate the financial state of the country haven't acted in the interests of society as a whole.

This swanky lifestyle of ours comes at a hefty cost - most of the things which we think that we own, we've paid for with credit. This is fine when you're able to pay your creditors, but when you're not, then things go very wrong very quickly. This is true on all levels, from individuals all the way up to multinational corporations. If you fail to adequately protect yourself against the threat of sudden change, then I think you deserve a certain level of criticism. Especially if you created the threat in the first place, and the cost of your mistake is the livelihoods of several thousand people.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
also this bloody £50 000 safety limit on funds in Banks? Even Coutts? What the fuck??
You tell me how I'm supposed to break 475 mill into handy £50 000 chunks? Eh? Exactly. No one thinks of the little people. It's not like I can invest it in Sugar Plantations in the Indies anymore is it?
 
Posted by missgolightly (Member # 34) on :
 
Trust me, it's really hard to be sympathetic when people moan about how hard it is to invest their multiples of £50,000. [Frown]
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
I've got some in Bullion, but then where do you store the bars? Exactly. It's a bloody nightmare. Dig a bloody great hole somewhere in the estate and bury the bloody lot of it, that's what I'm going to have to do.

[ 05.03.2009, 06:39: Message edited by: McDirts ]
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
Aren't the lot of you employed? Try not being employed and then you can bitch about it. Both me and the husband are unemployed right now. And it sucks ass not having money. The husband being an electrician and there not being any construction work. At least he can collect unemployment, I can't. Not yet anyway.

So yeah. The economy sucks. More than likely it'll get worse before it gets better. I don't know what people are supposed to do in the mean time. Stay positive? Go back to school? Keep hoping the government continues extending the unemployment? A just got another 20 week extension. After that, there's a 13 wk extension. What happens after that if the construction industry is still in the shitter? Move in with my mom? No way.

Sorry. Just venting.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amy:
Aren't the lot of you employed? Try not being employed and then you can bitch about it. Both me and the husband are unemployed right now. And it sucks ass not having money. The husband being an electrician and there not being any construction work. At least he can collect unemployment, I can't. Not yet anyway.

So yeah. The economy sucks. More than likely it'll get worse before it gets better. I don't know what people are supposed to do in the mean time. Stay positive? Go back to school? Keep hoping the government continues extending the unemployment? A just got another 20 week extension. After that, there's a 13 wk extension. What happens after that if the construction industry is still in the shitter? Move in with my mom? No way.

Sorry. Just venting.

I know how you feel Amy - I have to still try and sort out my unemployment and am unsure if I will even get it - the problem is that if I don't there is nowhere I can just turn to like yourself and move somewhere. I managed to attain a weeks work for the 16th but paying next to nothing (I'll end up with about 300 quid after tax for doing 40 hours work - something 12 months ago I would earn easily in a day) but after that it isn't looking too promising to be honest. I did have a chat today with a good mate of mine who reiterared the only thing is to just keep applying for work, no matter how off the mark it is from your skills and something is bound to turn up in the end. I have applied for more than 60 jobs in the last two months, and although the feedback has been lacking, I just have to keep going - maybe just under the impression that maybe people will get sick of seeing my CV and just give me a job out of pity or boredom - a sad way maybe of getting out of the rut, but I am sure persistance will pay off in the end.

I wish you luck Amy x
 
Posted by Amy (Member # 11) on :
 
Good luck to you too, Waynster. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

I'm looking at school again. I'm thinking about applying to Rowan U., but we shall see. I got into Rutgers, so I can't see why I wouldn't get into Rowan. I need to do something with myself. :sigh:
 
Posted by Keef (Member # 27) on :
 
Don't know if it interests you Wayne (or anyone else) but I know of a sound engineer job going which pays £30k+ and they're not looking for any specific experience other than enthusiasm. Oh and it would probably include some IT systems/network work too.
 
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
 
It would interest me, Keef.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
looking to suck some corporate cock, mart?
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
Ralph PM'd me the other day to ask if it was true that English Corporations hired people specifically to actually suck cock and how could he apply?
I told him he had the wrong end of the stick and he tried to make out like he knew it was a joke all along, but he actually got quite arsey with me.
 
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
 
tmo doesn't have a pm system. so there's one small hole in your story.
 
Posted by McDirts (Member # 6680) on :
 
obviously it was at the other place.

Fag.
 
Posted by Waynster (Member # 56) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Keef:
Don't know if it interests you Wayne (or anyone else) but I know of a sound engineer job going which pays £30k+ and they're not looking for any specific experience other than enthusiasm. Oh and it would probably include some IT systems/network work too.

Cheers Keef - if it's Holland based I'd be up for it as certain commitments mean I have to remain here for the foreseeable - let us know eh?
 
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Keef:
Don't know if it interests you Wayne (or anyone else) but I know of a sound engineer job going which pays £30k+ and they're not looking for any specific experience other than enthusiasm. Oh and it would probably include some IT systems/network work too.

I know someone who would chew his arm off for the job, who is more than qualified and knows his IT stuff. England? Info? mikeeteevee @ gmail.com
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Way Of Decay:
I know someone who would chew his arm off for the job, who is more than qualified and knows his IT stuff. England? Info? mikeeteevee @ gmail.com

I really hope the interview process involves arm chewing so that we can prove once and for all that NWOD is LYING TO TMO AGAIN.

[ 06.03.2009, 11:17: Message edited by: Cherry In Hove ]
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
Yeah, no job is worth chewing your arm off for. Unless it was like... super-bionic arm tester. Then I would. If I was going to get chainsaw and machinegun attachements and stuff. And loads of sweet bitches. Then I defintely would. Anyone who chews their arm off for a £30k a year IT job is a fucking idiot, though. Seriously. Also, it's going to put employers off, more than anything. The kind of guy who chews his arm off is going to wind up doing other stupid shit, like selling the company for some magic beans, or seeing if the computers can still run after they've been filled with hot jam.
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
seeing if the computers can still run after they've been filled with hot jam.

Both myself and my previous employers can tell you that they definitely can't. [Frown]
 
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
 
How are the magic beans working out, by the way?
 
Posted by Cherry In Hove (Member # 49) on :
 
Nothing yet, but I don't think anyone expected the magic beans to be a get rich quick scheme. I learnt from my mistakes, and I fully expect to have a beanstalk with treasure at the top anytime in the next 6-9 months
 


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