Does anyone know much about self-publishing? Don't worry, I haven't got anything I want to publish myself (ahem, yet), but I was wondering what the rules are and if you could do something sort of viral and underground by, say, getting 100 copies printed up and just leave copies in odd places. The book would have a website address inside and the site would have, say, just a forum and a way to order extra copies. Then you'd just leave it and see what happened.
It would rely on the content being something really special of course, and a lot of patience, and the original outlay for printing, so it really would be a vanity project.
But it could be a lot of fun to find new ways of 'placing' the books: random people to post them to; those country pubs that have a little book shelf that I don't suppose anyone ever looks at; rented cottages that have a little stack of Catherine Cookson books and a copy of Bravo Two Zero; just handing a copy to someone you think would enjoy it.
I bet people are doing this all the time and it's completely failing.
Anyway, with self-publishing do you still have to get an ISBN and a named author and be part of all that bollocks, or could you be completely underground and anonymous, man?
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
Are you going to try and start a revolution, Dang?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
I haven't had breakfast yet. Maybe after.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
The anonymity thing's the big question actually. Not for revolutionary purposes, it's just that it suits the project I have in mind. Having a named author would just completely spoil it. It's hard to explain, without giving the whole thing away. I've said too much already really.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
If the content was something really special, then wouldn't it get picked up by a real publisher? If you wanted to avoid big-style publishing houses to create a kind of underground effect, then there are plenty of small cult-y publishers around who would print the book. You probably wouldn't get an advance but you wouldn't have to pay someone to print it. Everything I've heard about vanity publishing suggests it's something that should be avoided in all situations.
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
Dang- it's a cool idea, even if only one person reads the book and enjoys it.
I ALWAYS get up and examine the book shelves in country pubs. Usual contents;
Shropshire Hunting Tales (1924) Common Sea Birds of Great Britain National Trust Guide to England & Wales (1989) A minor Dickens novel in hardback Battered local history guide to a town that's not local Two garish-spined Mills & Boon novels
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
Self publishing, you set the book up in word, it's pretty much automated. You can choose a cover from templates - or supply your own. You can print as few as 10 books. Unit price is obviously high - prob about £5-£6 a book.
Don't know if they do it in the uk though
Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
Can I put in a bid for the contract to design the cover?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
It's worked already. I want this book:
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: If the content was something really special, then wouldn't it get picked up by a real publisher?
I suppose so, but who's got the patience for all that nonsense? I'd just want to get straight on with it, not bothered about sales volume and target markets and, god forbid, signing sessions and shit like that.
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: If you wanted to avoid big-style publishing houses to create a kind of underground effect, then there are plenty of small cult-y publishers around who would print the book. You probably wouldn't get an advance but you wouldn't have to pay someone to print it.
I think even a small cult-y publisher would have the same marketing palaver to deal with, and they'd want to do lunch and stuff *throws up*
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Everything I've heard about vanity publishing suggests it's something that should be avoided in all situations.
Yeah, me too. But every single article in the Writers' & Artists' Yearbook seems to be geared around persuading budding writers to never even pick up a pen and piece of paper because they are doomed to certain failure. Books with titles like How To Make Lots Of Money From Writing actually have a standard introduction which says, "Put the gun barrel in your mouth now. That's it. Now pull the trigger."
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by MiscellaneousFiles: Can I put in a bid for the contract to design the cover?
I've got a design for the cover fully formed in my brain. I just don't have an actual book. Minor detail for a daydreamer like m'self of course.
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
That looks like a fine place. I will read their whole website right now. Back in a minute...
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
Yeah, so it is a slightly expensive business, but damned easy to do by the look of it. And one could just order a couple of copies a month to distribute and see what happened. So patience would be required after all, but it would be under your own control so not so bad as waiting to have manuscripts turned down and that sort of thing.
I see quite a lot of positive stuff on the forums there. Maybe the Writers' & Artists' Yearbook lied to us. Maybe it's written by failed writers and artists with a grudge.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
It's not just the WAAY that's against it though, it's everyone I've ever spoken to in the industry from tutors at University to editors at Faber and Faber; they always say stay away from the vanity press.
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
The thing is "vanity publishing" was shit. Because you had traditional litho methods of printing with minimum orders of 1000 books which the author would pay for and then probably sell about two and be left with a garage full of books gathering dust.
Nowadays there is digital print technology which is what all these self publishing places use. There's no set up charge and you can print 1 book or 100 books all for the same unit cost. It's far more economical for someone who only wants a few copies. Plus theres a lot of people who have a large audience that they have created for themselves, like popular bloggers for example.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
ETA: As Not just said...
I think the warnings I've read have been about a) those places that make you pay for a 500 copy minimum run for £3,000 or something and b) those places that might try to get the copyright or publishing rights off you somehow.
I don't see how a place which charges nothing at all for set up and lets you buy one copy at a time (albeit a bit expensive) is anything to be worried about. No more than getting a printing shop to make you a t-shirt with your own design, or a photo shop to run off a couple of extra sets of prints of your holiday snaps.
It's just a service. Up to you what you do with the product.
[ 16.05.2006, 06:32: Message edited by: dang65 ]
Posted by Jack Vincennes (Member # 814) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65:
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: If the content was something really special, then wouldn't it get picked up by a real publisher?
I suppose so, but who's got the patience for all that nonsense? I'd just want to get straight on with it, not bothered about sales volume and target markets and, god forbid, signing sessions and shit like that.
Wouldn't doing the viral / underground thing you talk about also take a fair bit of patience, tho'? What you're talking about sounds fun (be nice to find something interesting on a pub bookshelf...) and takes, probably, a different kind of patience than 'doing lunch', but still sounds like shitloads of work that people who are paid to bother about sales volumes and target markets could do...
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
It's all about being a Maverick Publisher.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jack Vincennes: Wouldn't doing the viral / underground thing you talk about also take a fair bit of patience, tho'? What you're talking about sounds fun (be nice to find something interesting on a pub bookshelf...) and takes, probably, a different kind of patience than 'doing lunch', but still sounds like shitloads of work that people who are paid to bother about sales volumes and target markets could do...
Yeah, as I wrote later:
quote:Originally posted by dang65: So patience would be required after all, but it would be under your own control so not so bad as waiting to have manuscripts turned down and that sort of thing.
It's a different kind of patience. It would be under one's own control. I don't think the sales volumes would ever justify their own spreadsheet, let alone a Sales Volumes & Target Markets Director (Pacific Rim and Americas).
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
You should totally do it. Produce the books as cheaply but nicely as possible (hand-made? screen-printed? whatever): blat out a bunch of press releases for the style magazines, do a bit of emailing, get the project covered in stuff like Marmalade and i-D, become underground art superstar - easy. Make sure to document whether the books disappered, how long they took to go, etc - people love documentation. Invite those who did pick the book up to mail you back some comments or whatever... I dunno. The Pick Me Up newsletter is full of these random projects. (www.putmedown.com). You'd be suprised at how much press / interest / artistic satisfaction these fun, underground projects can generate.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: You should totally do it. Produce the books as cheaply but nicely as possible (hand-made? screen-printed? whatever): blat out a bunch of press releases for the style magazines, do a bit of emailing, get the project covered in stuff like Marmalade and i-D, become underground art superstar - easy.
I don't want to come over all Mr Pissondangsparade here, but seriously... what the fuck? This is reads like an email from some 12 year old's dream world. I mean - why the fuck would i-D be interested in yet another self published book from a website full of the fuckers, more so than - say - a book which had undergone even the most minor form of quality control of being accepted by a small publishing imprint. Sure - that site looks like a good way to end up with an actual bound copy of your work, but entertaining the idea the i-D will seize on a self-published manuscript just because someone wrote a press release on it... I mean... Jesus. Sense of reality. This is like my mum thinking you can get an editorial job on The Times just by getting letters published in the Metro.
[ 16.05.2006, 11:09: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
[ 16.05.2006, 11:20: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
yeah, wrong thread, doofus.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
yeah, thanks for pointing it out. Thank god TMO ain't too slow when it comes to pointing out people's errors or fuck ups.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
you're welcome. all part of the service.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Are you looking to make any money out of this project, dang?
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I don't want to come over all Mr Pissondangsparade here, but seriously... what the fuck? This is reads like an email from some 12 year old's dream world. I mean - why the fuck would i-D be interested in yet another self published book from a website full of the fuckers, more so than - say - a book which had undergone even the most minor form of quality control of being accepted by a small publishing imprint. Sure - that site looks like a good way to end up with an actual bound copy of your work, but entertaining the idea the i-D will seize on a self-published manuscript just because someone wrote a press release on it... I mean... Jesus. Sense of reality. This is like my mum thinking you can get an editorial job on The Times just by getting letters published in the Metro.
You don't know what you're talking about. How do you think stuff *gets* in i-D in the first place? I self-published a fanzine and it got reviewed all over the shop - in Bizarre, in The Face, in Just 17 - and that was just a 'self-published piece of crap' that hadn't undergone any 'quality control' other than that which I was perfectly capable of providing myself. I didn't even send out any press releases - people just picked up on it. Also, I didn't think Dang was talking about just putting out some shitty boring rubbish poorly-written lame story - I thought the whole idea was about leaving it in places and seeing who'd pick it up, etc. Style magazines love that shit. Your attitude is really horrible and negative.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: Your attitude is really horrible and negative.
That's why they won't give him houseroom in the underground press.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Are you looking to make any money out of this project, dang?
I'm guessing the complete opposite.
I'd not actually thought about magazine coverage and that sort of thing. Certainly wouldn't be a deliberate aim to get articles written. In fact I would expect the most fun to come from the basic obscurity of the whole idea.
Anyway, there's a long, long way to go before it even reaches the dizzy heights of simple obscurity. The book's not even written yet.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: You don't know what you're talking about. How do you think stuff *gets* in i-D in the first place? I self-published a fanzine and it got reviewed all over the shop - in Bizarre, in The Face, in Just 17 - and that was just a 'self-published piece of crap' that hadn't undergone any 'quality control' other than that which I was perfectly capable of providing myself. I didn't even send out any press releases - people just picked up on it. Also, I didn't think Dang was talking about just putting out some shitty boring rubbish poorly-written lame story - I thought the whole idea was about leaving it in places and seeing who'd pick it up, etc. Style magazines love that shit. Your attitude is really horrible and negative.
Oh for God's sake - suggest that some lazy short cut might not work and suddenly it's being horrible and negative. I'm sure none of the hundreds of books already on that site were done by people who were talking about just "putting out some shitty boring rubbish poorly-written lame story", but obviously style magazines aren't falling over themselves to write about them, or the thousands of self published novels that preceeded them. Maybe leaving a copy on a park bench might provide an element of the novelty required to get attention from the style press, in which case fantastic. But for fuck's sake is suggesting that the best route might automatically not be the one that requires the least amount of effort really being "horrible and negative"?
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: a book which [hasn't] undergone even the most minor form of quality control [by] being accepted by a small publishing imprint.
That's the other thing they always warn against in vanity publishing articles isn't it. I'm never quite clear how you get around this. I mean, publishers don't seem that bothered about quality control these days anyway (qv Dan Brown, Steve Alten et al). Are you supposed to show it to a couple of friends first or something?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: How do you think stuff *gets* in i-D in the first place? I self-published a fanzine and it got reviewed all over the shop - in Bizarre, in The Face, in Just 17 - and that was just a 'self-published piece of crap' that hadn't undergone any 'quality control'
Was this before or after you did editorial work for Bizzarre? Because I don't think that's a true and accurate description of how things just get picked up Amp. If I'm wrong and you started writing on the back of a fanzine you started, then much respect.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65:
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: Are you looking to make any money out of this project, dang?
I'm guessing the complete opposite.
Good... good. Well, depending on the length and content of the book you could try and do a bit of style mag/blog/viral hype of the project and then leave copies lying around in a variety of handmade formats. So each item becomes an event rather than just an artefact. It could take ages. Years, even. Discarded government documents. Misplaced military portfolios. Obsolete instruction manuals. Obsessive compulsive's notebooks. Ancient libretti. Cyber Necronomica... Depending on the material and how you wanted to prepare and present it, you could mail, hand-deliver or insinuate it to some key punters who might stoke up interest and distribute others to whoever...
You could do it as a serial. Or, creepier, reproduce the entire text in all the different formats.
Then you could stalk the recipients, too. Phone them in the middle of the night and giggle down the phone. Break in, rearrange the furniture. Kidnap their families. Kill 'em. You know, really get noticed. Put yourself on the map.
[ 16.05.2006, 12:39: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Uber Trick (Member # 456) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Was this before or after you did editorial work for Bizzarre? Because I don't think that's a true and accurate description of how things just get picked up Amp. If I'm wrong and you started writing on the back of a fanzine you started, then much respect.
Best start respecting then!
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Was this before or after you did editorial work for Bizzarre? Because I don't think that's a true and accurate description of how things just get picked up Amp. If I'm wrong and you started writing on the back of a fanzine you started, then much respect.
Yes I did start writing on the back of a fanzine I published - exactly! I was on the dole, wanted to be a writer, didn't know how, so I made a fanzine. I had never met any journalists, never been paid a penny for a word I had written - basically didn't have any idea about anything. I just made a zine, photocopied it at the community centre, left it lying around bars and shops in London. If stuff is good / new / interesting / whatever, it will get noticed - but if it's not out there because you're waiting for some publishing house to say your stuff is ok, how can it get noticed? As for Bizarre, I got that because I submitted a review - unpaid, btw - to a magazine called Careless Talk Costs Lives, and the publisher of Bizarre read it, loved it, took me to lunch, and gave me a job. I didn't spring fully-formed from the womb as a media whore, you know. (It takes work to become like this.)
Re: Thorn. It just seems like you’re very down on any kind of DIY activity…I don’t know. I mean, I’m just transcribing an interview with this girl who set up a publishing house to publish art books with two of her friends. They’re beautiful art books – perfect bound and full colour and hard-cover. She publishes 1000 of each and distributes them. The first book was funded by a grant, the second book was paid for by the three publishers themselves – people in their mid/late 20s – who have fairly low-paying jobs – just because they want to do something new and interesting, and create beautiful books. They found an ultra-cheap printers in Istanbul – 5000 euros for 1000 books – so that works out at £3 a book – and obviously they sell them for more. I don’t know how many they do sell – she says that if they sell books that’s great, but that’s not the bottom line. That kind of DIY spirit, that’s allied to what you call ‘vanity publishing’, right? How vain of them to create books, not knowing that the demand for these books exist, not waiting for some all-powerful outside force to sanction what they’re doing! But I find that really exciting and cool and fun. I don’t believe that creative effort is only important if money and acclaim automatically follow – and you can’t either, right, or you would never have finished your book. Or, if your book doesn’t get published, does that mean it must be completely shit? Plenty of good writers weren’t published in their lifetimes… as were plenty of shit ones, of course... I don’t know, you just seem to have a blind faith in the ‘quality control’ of publishers that I’m not sure is warranted.
[ 16.05.2006, 13:50: Message edited by: London ]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: That kind of DIY spirit, that’s allied to what you call ‘vanity publishing’, right? How vain of them to create books, not knowing that the demand for these books exist, not waiting for some all-powerful outside force to sanction what they’re doing!
Vanity publishing isn't what I call it - it's what the title of the thread calls it, and the entire publishing industry.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
It's also known as 'self-publishing' and 'DIY publishing'. Are you going to engage with anything else I've said above, or just attempt a correction and then type a rolleyes smiley like some latter-day Rick J impersonator?
Posted by jnhoj (Member # 286) on :
If I ever finish this stupid fucking nano book I'm goddamn going to vanity publish and cry myself to sleep at night pouring over the ghastly pages. It'll serve as a reminder to never write again!
Surely it's just like framing a photo you yourself have taken? I don't see the problem.
As a sidenote, how's the divorce coming dang? I think you'd be more than capable of writing a book like I dunno, any one of the number of male authors who right timely pieces on turning 40. or 50. I don't mean it as an offence, but your every post sounds like that ;D
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
Sorry; I'm having trouble articulating myself on account of the words you've already stuffed in my mouth. You see, I never said "I believe that creative effort is only important if money and acclaim automatically follow", and I don't think that's the implication of what I've written. In fact I said "Sure, that site looks like a good way to end up with an actual bound copy of your work". I mean - that's a long way from suggesting something's only worth doing if you get money and acclaim for it. It's an acknowledgement of the exact opposite; that the best thing about it is that you get your book in book form.
So it's difficult to engage with what you've said because it seems directed at a kind of alterna-dimension post.
What I wanted to emphasise - and what I stand by - is that it's really unlikely that you'll get a storm of publicity over doing something that's incredibly easy to achieve (I could have a book on that website in - what - minutes? How long does it take to upload?) and has been done many times before just because you bothered to issue a press release about it. See, it's not really about whether I think the D.I.Y press has any value, it already holds zero currency in the industry because it's so easy; hence why would the press care? Because you leave a copy in the street? As I said: if so, fantastic, but I'm not convinced that's enough. So as I said if you want a copy of your work, brilliant. But I really think the idea that i-D, wallpaper etc are going to turn you into a superstar is insane.
Also - I don't see this as being down on D.I.Y. projects, more just being down on taking the easiest possible route.
[ 16.05.2006, 14:38: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uber Trick: Best start respecting then!
Shut it you!
quote:Originally posted by London: Yes I did start writing on the back of a fanzine I published - exactly! I was on the dole, wanted to be a writer, didn't know how, so I made a fanzine. I had never met any journalists, never been paid a penny for a word I had written - basically didn't have any idea about anything. I just made a zine, photocopied it at the community centre, left it lying around bars and shops in London. If stuff is good / new / interesting / whatever, it will get noticed - but if it's not out there because you're waiting for some publishing house to say your stuff is ok, how can it get noticed? As for Bizarre, I got that because I submitted a review - unpaid, btw - to a magazine called Careless Talk Costs Lives, and the publisher of Bizarre read it, loved it, took me to lunch, and gave me a job.
Fucking. RESPECT. Dude.
quote:I didn't spring fully-formed from the womb as a media whore, you know. (It takes work to become like this.)
No! No pity points for AMP. Building yourself from the ground up is an admirable achievement.
quote:gave me a job
lo l
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Also - I don't see this as being down on D.I.Y. projects, more just being down on taking the easiest possible route.
Sorry, I want to give this validation. yeah, we've recently been having a think about what we want to put out material wise. The general agreed attitude is that we start on a demo, because it would be easy to blow a stack of money on a single and put it out on our own backs but then there's no market. We'd be pushing a really smooth recording to nobody, so we mixed our first demo over headphones. LOL! Headphones! But we still got really kind replies and we get people come up to us and give us feedback about tracks and they are raw as fuck. (the tracks, not the feedback) Very actually, raw as fuck. Just like 'I fucked that line up' and 'yeah whatevs, it's getting late'
So anyway, Misc and I sat about carving up artwork with a guillotine, everything we are putting out has had us fucking around, tweaking with things, experimenting and learning]. It's as DIY as you get. It's a hard choice to make. Do you go for the best possible sound or do you leave in those problematic mistakes? The listener can hear that subconciously. Vocals are too shitty? DISTORT.
Anyway, look at the tracks on that site musically. Who is going to buy that stuff? It's just a way of pumping it out yourself but being too lazy to do anything with it. It's self congratulatory, something I'll fall into the trap of being if I don't make some pretty fucking solid decisions right now. I've been sitting around on my ass with a product and not really thinking about what the product is meant to achieve. In this case, it is validation. What are you looking to achieve dang?
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: But I really think the idea that i-D, wallpaper etc are going to turn you into a superstar is insane.
Also - I don't see this as being down on D.I.Y. projects, more just being down on taking the easiest possible route.
I never said 'superstar': it's just easier to generate press in these magazines than you think - assuming Dang's project isn't a complete pile of shit and is properly documented. Probably be better to do something in a more interesting format than just some book off a website though though - if you're only talking 100 copies then surely you could get some small fine art publisher to screen-print some... yes, the more effort* expended and the better quality of the work, the more attention the piece is likely to garner. So maybe we are saying the same thing after all. Or maybe I'm assuming Dang's project is going to be brilliant and interesting, and you're not.
Dang, is your project going to be brilliant and interesting, do you think?
*eta - i just guess i don't automatically equate 'effort' with 'hauling your stuff round some publisher and hoping that someone accepts it' which is what you seemed to be saying.
[ 16.05.2006, 15:44: Message edited by: London ]
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: Dang, is your project going to be brilliant and interesting, do you think?
Come on, Dang hasn't thought it through in any real way. It's a cheeky whimsy.
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: I never said 'superstar'
My eyesight must be going then. What's the word before 'easy'?
quote:Originally posted by London: do a bit of emailing, get the project covered in stuff like Marmalade and i-D, become underground art superstar - easy.
Eh. That's a bit... I dunno. Twatty of me maybe. Couldn't leave it alone. Twatty.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
For the record, my suggestion was completely serious. Except for the kidnapping and killing and so forth... obviously.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Feel free to jump in at any point, kovacs. You're among friends here.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
You ruined Kovacs, Mask. You and Ralph just couldn't leave Toygate alone.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis:
quote:Originally posted by London: I never said 'superstar'
My eyesight must be going then. What's the word before 'easy'?
quote:Originally posted by London: do a bit of emailing, get the project covered in stuff like Marmalade and i-D, become underground art superstar - easy.
Eh. That's a bit... I dunno. Twatty of me maybe. Couldn't leave it alone. Twatty.
jesus ok sarcasmo-man
I said 'underground art superstar'. Pretty much everyone in Shoreditch is an underground art superstar. It's not the same as a Real Superstar.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: You ruined Kovacs, Mask. You and Ralph just couldn't leave Toygate alone.
I don't think that's true.
[ 16.05.2006, 16:01: Message edited by: Black Mask ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: Pretty much everyone in Shoreditch is an underground art superstar. It's not the same as a Real Superstar.
No.
Waitin' for my man Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Is no-one else unnerved by Evening Thorn Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Same pussy, different hat.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
O thorn, when did you get so mean?
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: I don't think that's true.
It was my grudge wasn't it? Why couldn't I let it go?
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Is no-one else unnerved by Evening Thorn
Co-incidentally it's because I'm (not) working on a final edit of boke chapters before sending them off tomorrow. VP keeps coming in and saying "I thought you were WORKING?" I don't get this much shit when I post on TMO at my day job.
[ 16.05.2006, 16:07: Message edited by: Thorn Davis ]
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
That's what grudges are for. No one thinks any the less of you.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Co-incidentally it's because I'm (not) working on a final edit of boke chapters before sending them off tomorrow. VP keeps coming in and saying "I thought you were WORKING?" I don't get this much shit when I post on TMO at my day job.
Why don't you scare her?
A proper scaring.
Take off your shirt and your spectacles.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
I'm just popping out to Oddbins.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: A proper scaring.
Take off your shirt and your spectacles.
That'll make the dame remember the halcyon sex.
As it happens, grudge-wise my friend once said 'always fire live ammunition, not blanks' when going into an argument.
He was a member of a gun club.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Is no-one else unnerved by Evening Thorn
I am! Thorn seems like he's wound up so bad that even the weediest of baby threadworms couldn't find space to peek its translucent head through such a tight anus. Thorn, I would have thought that having changed your job and got a girlfriend etc you'd be all like, happy or at least grimly cheerful, but you seem like you're a white hot ball of tension and rage! Been like it for some time now. I'm too scared to properly interact with you online now because all you seem to do is come out with ultra-sharp sarcasm & dead eyed reasoning. Even your film reviews are little more than elaborate attacks on unseen parties.
You used to be one of my favourites, but now you bring me down.
Still, this isn't a personal attack, more like, friendly concern that your attitude to the boards seems a bit negative, almost sour. You need one of Honeybaby's notorious love prostitutes.
[ 16.05.2006, 16:13: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i like thorn better like this. it is much more simple this way.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I don't know man. He's just so...linear.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Still, this isn't a personal attack, more like, friendly concern that your attitude to the boards seems a bit negative, almost sour.
And you've been willing TMO's death.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
You can't blame him. As this seasons most prolific poster, I apologise for tales of wanking, bum gravy and my fucking band. You all deserve better.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I am sick of hearing about the band, that's true.
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
feel the love....
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
Thorn's alright. He apologised to me last week. Is that the action of a man who is dead inside?
Three sentences and she still can't make them make sense. Fucking hell.
[ 16.05.2006, 16:19: Message edited by: Louche ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
Maybe I'm projecting
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
I dunno. I think maybe I feel like the only way I can get a reaction from the board these days is to smash it round the head. Maybe it's an attention thing. It's almost certainly an attention thing.
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I dunno. I think maybe I feel like the only way I can get a reaction from the board these days is to smash it round the head. Maybe it's an attention thing. It's almost certainly an attention thing.
It's excellent to read though. I may be saying that because you've not yet had a go at me.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Thorn... having changed your job and got a girlfriend etc... you seem like you're a white hot ball of tension and rage!
Pattern?
Look at ben.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
And kovacs! No slugfests until he settled down with the little lady.
Louche is married, isn't he?
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Oh, there he is.
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I am sick of hearing about the band, that's true.
I know, but you haven't bothered to even make the one of the two gigs I bothered to arrange. Which is about the same amount you've seen AMP's band, so I'll try not to weep softly to myself.
I got this recently:
quote:Is this you Mikee? This isn’t funny.
Darryn
From: Darryn Moonsmith Sent: 16 May 2006 15.32 To: Michael dad rape king bum Subject: fin
Darryn,
I want to bring to your attention the lack of decent posting on the moon online. You know my stance as outlined in my recent email. We both know from experience my ‘persona’ as Doctor Benway on the moon online has been one of a bedsit dwelling asiaphile. A ruse, as much as a game has become dull in what can only be described as a shower of pitiful posting. You think a baby pissing all over your face is funny? Angry Thorn? Ridiculous. As for “Mikee Teevee’s” (hand wanks inclusive) potty talk, it’s enough to make me projectile vomit over a dead Japanese schoolgirl corpse. See what I did there? SEE WHAT I FUCKING DID?
Sort it
Steve M
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
Yes, sorry about my persona. I think I've turned it down though these days, and even though I'm still rocking the same old shit, I figure that nobody cares, and it bores me to talk about it. I do it on the quiet now. That Silent Hill wankery will hopefully be the last of my white noise-esque droning about all things nippon.
And I might be moving out of Finsbury Park Mansions this summer.
[ 16.05.2006, 16:57: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I dunno. I think maybe I feel like the only way I can get a reaction from the board these days is to smash it round the head. Maybe it's an attention thing. It's almost certainly an attention thing.
It's probably stress from the book.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
What the fuck are you all doing posting at this time of night? I only came in here to switch the computer off and now I find I'm all out-of-sync with this thread.
What were the questions? "Is your project going to be brilliant and interesting, do you think?" Well, it's just a fiction book, that's all. But, as London surmised a couple of pages back, it's just that it has a bit of a concept behind it quite beyond the actual story.
Anyway, it's not aimed at making money, and it's certainly not aimed at making fame and awards ceremonies, nor articles in hip magazines, nor critical acclaim. It would be a personal experiment for me. A few quid here and there and see what happened.
"What are you looking to achieve?" Just to sate my curiosity, really. Self-publishing is just a quick(er) way of testing the concept, that's all.
"How's the divorce coming?" I've not been served any papers yet. It doesn't seem to be an easy process anyway, but it is underway, yeah.
Posted by herbs (Member # 101) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Thorn, I would have thought that having changed your job and got a girlfriend etc you'd be all like, happy or at least grimly cheerful, but you seem like you're a white hot ball of tension and rage! Been like it for some time now. I'm too scared to properly interact with you online now because all you seem to do is come out with ultra-sharp sarcasm & dead eyed reasoning. Even your film reviews are little more than elaborate attacks on unseen parties.
You used to be one of my favourites, but now you bring me down.
I've been feeling like this too, Dr Be, but didn't want to say anything for fear of sounding like a whingey fluff bucket.
And I wanted to say to London, maybe Dang's book's going to be about the history of the sproket in Cheshire, so he may well not be wanting, or likely to get, press in Marmalade.
Posted by Uber Trick (Member # 456) on :
TMO-bile.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Well, I'm just trying to be positive, you bunch of mardy fucking wankers.
Posted by Black Mask (Member # 185) on :
What's wrong with these people? It's like Mail Art and Fluxus never happened.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
That outcast has massive legs.
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
also: i like linkin park
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
do you have massive legs, hippy?
[ 16.05.2006, 19:03: Message edited by: vikram ]
Posted by H1ppychick (Member # 529) on :
not like that freakboy i don't.
nor do i look like sherminator jnr, nor wear a plaid shirt.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i bet that kid has a black trenchcoat
Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
To hide the fact his thighs touch his nipples?
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
quote:Originally posted by herbs: I've been feeling like this too, Dr Be, but didn't want to say anything for fear of sounding like a whingey fluff bucket.
Fucking hell, this is like one of the 'intervention group' things that Americans do for fat kids. Anyone else?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
come on thorn...It's for the best.. It's because we care.
Posted by Louche (Member # 450) on :
I dunno, if Thorn's not allowed to be harsh and I'm not allowed to be depressed what's next? dang not allowed to make bad puns? Benway not allowed to pst about hangovers?
It's a slippery slope into Draconian censorship, it really is.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
there's a separate van for enablers. Anyway, I'm not saying that thorn's not allowed to be harsh. I'm not making any assertions re: what he can and cannot do, just expressing how thorn's relentlessly aggressive online activity makes me feel. It doesn't feel like the riffing or tongue in cheek playfulness of yesteryore. Hey, it's not like I'm the frikkin keystone of the boards, I'm not the voice of the people here. I'm not trying to burn the witch or demand justification. I'm only speaking out because I don't want to get all fucked up about it, and because, believe it or not, I think it's a shame that he's feeling the way he does.
[ 17.05.2006, 05:22: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Thorn's always harsh. It's not that. I've been fighting / debating with Thorn on here for years, and I've greatly enjoyed it. But lately it's been like arguing with the Terminator: just relentless logic and picking, with each point accompanied by putdowns and sarcasm - like arguing with Kovacs, but without Kovacs' sidesweeps into pastiche or ironic trolling or anything. Just POUNDING AWAY TO GET THORN'S POINT OF VIEW ACROSS till you just want to give the fuck up. I'd say that currently Thorn's the strongest voice on this board - harsh rhetoric, quick to anger, very intelligent - and when that voice is spoiling for a fight, and quite a nasty one at that, not the kind of fun / teasy intellectual debate of yore - who can be arsed?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I feel like I'm pouring negative vibes onto negative vibes, which will surely just create an even bigger bonfire of negativity around here. Toffee apple, anyone?
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
yeah, i've noticed that benway. i've been more hateful than negative, but y'know none of it's the best.
luckily today i am in a good mood because i have two recruitment agencies to meet this afternoon! one of them is pathfinders, which has decent jobs i won't get. teh other is for temping, cuz i need money. today i am dressed very smart.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
what are other good temp agencies? are there ones that specialise in jobs that allow vomitting in stationary bins?
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
where is a good place to have lunch in west soho that is cheapish?
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
you may have guessed i am bored.
sorry
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
There's a Mcdonalds there I think.
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
wee
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i'm not loving it
i want a green salad (with lovely olives, fetah and avocado) plus maybe a bloody mary (with a splash of sherry and red wine). i don't think mcdonalds does this. yet.
Posted by not... (Member # 25) on :
Is that the most annoying signature ever?
Posted by dance margarita (Member # 848) on :
is maoz in west soho? it is in compton street. i know i should know this but the geography of soho has always mashed with my heid. i heart maoz and miss their deep fried aubergine very very much indeed.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i was thinking of going to freuds, which is in covent garden (or someplace called "st. giles") and nice and quite cheap really.
but them i thought i'd try somewhere new, near pathfinder's office (golden square).
thanks for the tip, disco. much better than not's. anyway i am meeting my mate in st. james's at 12.30 which gives me plenty of time to be late for appointment
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
quote:Originally posted by vikram: what are other good temp agencies? are there ones that specialise in jobs that allow vomitting in stationary bins?
Tate are pretty good in terms of getting work. They can usually sort me out in a day or so and they only tend to work with major firms. With them I've worked at Ernst and Young, John Lewis, the stock exchange, Warner Brothers, Research International, and PricewaterhouseCoopers. Pay is higher than other places I've been to (brook street, reed)
[ 17.05.2006, 06:20: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]
Posted by mart (Member # 32) on :
What does "cheap" mean for you, Vikram? How much are you wanting to spend.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Tate are pretty good in terms of getting work. They can usually sort me out in a day or so and they only tend to work with major firms. With them I've worked at Ernst and Young, John Lewis, the stock exchange, Warner Brothers, Research International, and PricewaterhouseCoopers. Pay is higher than other places I've been to (brook street, reed)
hey man, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
hey if you go with them you should let them know I referred you.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
quote:Originally posted by mart: What does "cheap" mean for you, Vikram? How much are you wanting to spend.
a fiver for salad is cool. that's enough, isn't it?
actually i went to a quite flashy dim sum restaurant on great marlborough street the other week. the toilet doors went swish!. was well cool. it was probably expensive though - american bankers were paying (thanks to my lovely flatmate). swish!, like in star trek. swish! Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: hey if you go with them you should let them know I referred you.
no problem, but will that prejudice me?
(joke)
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
swish! Posted by New Way Of Decay (Member # 106) on :
Worse hotlink ever
[ 17.05.2006, 06:48: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Worse hotlink ever
swish?
Posted by Vogon Poetess (Member # 164) on :
I was quite enjoying this thread until Vikram spammed it with the same 5 posts he puts on every thread every day.
Dang- I reckon you could combine a small print run with some kind of survivalist treasure hunt (ie you have to follow a clue and trek across some moorland to find the next chapter). Get Ray Mears involved and stuff.
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I'm sure that Thorn Forensics will be be repeated later in the broadcast calender.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: Hey, it's not like I'm the frikkin keystone of the boards
Perhaps you're not the frikkin keystone of the boards, but you're certainly the mortar that keeps it all together. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself, Steve.
[ 17.05.2006, 08:22: Message edited by: ralph ]
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
maybe once, maybe there were a few weeks back in 2003 when I was pissing against the big dogs, but not now.
Posted by Abby (Member # 582) on :
quote: With them I've worked at Ernst and Young, John Lewis, the stock exchange...
A friend was recently made redundant from Reuters, with a healthy redundancy package, and after some thought he decided that his ideal job would be gift wrapper at John Lewis. Immediate and frequent satisfaction of a job well done, a gift well wrapped, and interaction only with happy, content members of the public who were anticipating a joyful wedding or birthday.
Needless to say he ended up getting a lucrative job doing something with computers a week later and stashing a small fortune in redundancy pay out.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i have a friend that works for john lewis. apparently they own an island for staff holidays and such
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
No, not an island, but they do have a few super discounted hotels and things. Plus they still do lunch for 30p, because john spedan lewis said it must always be so.
Posted by Physic (Member # 195) on :
It's Virgin who have an island for staff holidays, Ricky Branson's Necker Island to be precise, several people got to go there during the time I was working for them I think. God knows just how much corporate cock you had to be sucking to get to go..
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
corporate cock, or (according to tom bower) richard branson's?
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
I wouldn't suck cock to go on the island, but if he threw in some riches as well, I probably would.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
i'd let him bum me for a bit of riches
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
same here.
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
what other rich people would you fuck for money, benway?
Posted by vikram (Member # 98) on :
answer: all of them
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
yeah. I don't know. Probably.
Posted by LowLevel (Member # 30) on :
Well his new 'Girlfriend' is worth about £20 mil suddenly...
Co-inky-dink?
I don' think so
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
I just thought I'd post this - the interview I did with the girl who 'vanity published' some books and stuff, seeing as it's relevant. Maybe I'm just desperate for some more sarcasm from Thorn, maybe it's relevant... maybe it's too long for any of you fuckers to read.
quote: DIY publishing: a term redolent of a hands-on, rough-edged, let’s-do-the-show right here approach to the creation of literarature, right? You know: a bunch of crusties sitting around in a squat, scribbling manuals on bike maintenance and cranking them out on a stolen lithograph machine. An A-Z guide to looking after your girl parts, from drinking raspberry leaf tea to tone the uterus to inducing a miscarriage with parsley and goldenseal, produced by a Brooklyn feminist collective in 1978 and in (self-) production ever since. A punk kid’s travel writings, all hand-drawn in pencil, fed through a photocopier, and distributed via underground distributors from Merseyside to Montreal. You know. Wacky shit: wierd shit, stuff too out there to ever be considered good enough for a ‘real’ publisher; stuff with deliberately low production values; stuff with a savage, even confrontational aesthetic; stuff that is – in the eyes of the mainstream – shitty; shoddy; lame. Right?
Well; yes. And no. While seizing the means of production in order to disseminate all that crazy subversive jive-talk is of course an excellent and time-honoured offshoot of mainstream literature (though somewhat redundant since the popularisation of Old Mama Internet), there’s more to independent publishing than this. There’s the magazine you hold in your hands, for one thing. Sniff those shiny pages – tasty, huh? Stroke it across your cheek. And then there are the beautiful art books put out by Passenger Books, a new pan-European publishing imprint that has its roots firmly in the underground / DIY scenes – though you wouldn’t necessarily guess it from the three beautifully printed and bound books they’ve put out so far.
Passenger Books was founded in 2005 by sisters Corinn and Simone Gerber, and their friend Peter Gorschulter. Each resides in a different European city (Corrin lives in Cologne, Simone in Zurich, and Peter in Dusselldorf) and their books are printed in Istanbul, with production overseen by Linda Herzog, an artist and friend who currently lives out there. So far, so swish. But the people putting out these books aren’t trust-fund babies, rich kids pissing around producing vanity projects to promote themselves and their friends. They’re people like you and me, and they had an idea, and they made it happen. DIY in action, baby!
‘Simone and I were visiting our friend Linda in Istanbul’, explains Corrin, as we sit in her attic apartment surrounded by proofs for the book she’s working on. ‘She’s an artist, and she was awarded a grant to live out there and work with. She’s an avid photographer as well, and had a huge collection of images from her time spent living in Istanbul, Birmingham and Zurich. At the time, the discussion around the EU was very active, and the images can be seen to be a part of that - all of these cities are in Europe, but only one of them is in the EU: what does it mean to be from Europe in this day and age? In what ways are we united or divided?’
‘So we decided to publish the photographs as a book (‘Birmingham, Istanbul, Zurich, Linda Herzog, Passenger Books 2005). We began researching printers in Istanbul straightaway, and I was astonished – the companies out there have very high-tech Heidelberg machines, so they can produce beautiful books; but at the same time they don’t really know how to use them, so you have to be very careful when overseeing the production.’
Publishing a hard-back book with little experience isn’t the easiest thing in the world, of course. ‘Production was a bit of a nightmare’, Corinn says. ‘I was back in Cologne, while Linda, who didn’t speak Turkish at the time, was trying to liaise with the printers. We both didn’t know much publishing lingo – and of course my first language is German… so I’d have to try and find the English word for something like ‘stitch binding’, tell Linda that over the phone, then she’d have to get someone to translate the English word into Turkish.’
But this, she explains, is part of what the whole project is about. ‘Passenger Books is not just about the object you hold in your hands. It’s about the social aspect – working together despite being based in different countries – and also the idea of the book in itself; the method and means of production. It’s important to us that the books are produced in Istanbul. It’s not just about going for the cheapest printers, which is usually the deciding factor…though of course, that was a consideration.’
Ah yes, the money question. It’s rude to talk about money, but as someone who spent a good few years pouring cash into a fanzine which was then given away completely free, I feel entitled to get to the nitty-gritty. Birmingham, Istanbul, Zurich is a hard-cover art book with glossy, thick pages and full-bleed photographs. How do you fund all this?
‘The first book was funded through Linda’s grant – but printing costs in Istanbul are very reasonable. We published 1000 copies and paid a very cheap price for everything, including high-tech scans. The books are sold throughout Europe and I can combine this with my day job as a bookseller. But even so, it’s not so much about numbers of sales – and we can afford that, because we all have full-time jobs as well as running Passenger Books. What’s important to us are the books themselves – the design, how they look, how the reader interacts with the text. We want to make stuff that is special.’
The second book they distributed, a collaboration with Cologne label Tomlab – is certainly that. Called ‘The Empty Sleeve’, it’s an album by artist / illustrator David Shrigley, except – well, there’s no album inside. The publication looks like a normal gatefold album sleeve, but then you open it up – to be greeted a couple of bright, impasto paintings spelling out the words ‘UGLY’ and ‘*****’ – and there’s just a songbook, and an empty paper sleeve. The sleeve has a drawing of a record on it with the words ‘I DIDN’T MAKE A RECORD / I COULDN’T BE BOTHERED TO MAKE A RECORD / IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO DIFFICULT / IT WAS EASIER NOT TO MAKE A RECORD’ in distinctive Shrigley handwriting.
‘There were 2000 of these, and they’re all sold out now. This is a song-book with song-text, and the idea is that you can sing the songs if you want. It’s an art-object, this one – it costs 25 euros – but we’re thinking of making a soft-cover book, a cheaper one, that everyone can afford. Tomlab are currently getting submissions from various bands who’ve recorded songs with the lyrics Shrigley has written, so this time, the book will include a CD of these songs with the soft-cover version – and maybe a full-sized LP as well.’
Passenger Books’ next project – the one scattered across the table on which we rest our elbows - is a collection of the drawings of Ingo Giezendanner, the artist behind grrrr.net. These are highly detailed black and white felt-tipped pictures –reportage of industrial scenes done with such intricacy that it sometimes tips over into eye-wateringly beautiful surrealism. They’ve also just produced a series of limited edition buttons featuring works by Maurizio Cattelan, Peter Fischli/David Weiss, GRRRR.net, Wilhelm Hein, Diango Hernàndez, Linda Herzog, Jörg Immendorff, Mickry3, Jonathan Monk, Linda Neutral, Daniel Roth, Allen Ruppersberg, David Shrigley, and AK Wehrli – ‘something tiny, that everyone can afford’, explains Corrin. With Birmingham Istanbul Zurich recently awarded ‘Most Beautiful Swiss Books 2005’ and selected for the German Photography Book Award 2005, the existence of Passenger Books is testament to the fact that independent publishing, DIY ethics and high production values can make very happy bedfellows indeed.
quote:Originally posted by London: ...a bunch of crusties sitting around in a squat...
Passenger Books was founded in 2005 by sisters Corinn and Simone Gerber, and their friend Peter Gorschulter. Each resides in a different European city (Corrin lives in Cologne, Simone in Zurich, and Peter in Dusselldorf)...
Linda Herzog, an artist and friend who currently lives out there...
But the people putting out these books aren’t trust-fund babies...
‘Simone and I were visiting our friend Linda in Istanbul’...
we sit in her attic apartment...
‘She’s an artist, and she was awarded a grant to live out there and work with...
huge collection of images from her time spent living in Istanbul, Birmingham and Zurich...
Linda, who didn’t speak Turkish at the time...
of course my first language is German…...
It’s about the social aspect...
It’s important to us that the books are produced in Istanbul...
it’s not so much about numbers of sales – and we can afford that...
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you totally AMPage... Completely down-to-Earth... Just like U an' Me
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Oh come on. I have a friend who lives in Berlin, who I visit. I know artists and writers who get grants to do stuff. I've lived in Mexico and, er, Brighton. I paid money to publish something and then gave it away for free, because it was FUN... you don't have to be a globe-trotting yuppie to be creative. What is wrong with EVERYBODY ON THIS FUCKING WEBSITE.
[ 18.05.2006, 08:22: Message edited by: London ]
Posted by His Life And Crimes (Member # 796) on :
Speaking German = being an allien!!11!
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: What is wrong with EVERYBODY ON THIS FUCKING WEBSITE.
I think it's EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE at the moment. Grim times, so it is.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
quote:Originally posted by His Life And Crimes: Speaking German = being an allien
No, we were the alliens. They were the axins.
Posted by ralph (Member # 773) on :
quote:Originally posted by dang65: No, we were the alliens. They were the axins.
Posted by My Name Is Joe (Member # 530) on :
I would say that there's a world of difference between self publishing like you describe in your article London, where the point is to be involved in the entire production process be keep control of how the final work looks and feels, and 'vanity publishing'.
By handing your work over to any publisher you lose control to a greater or lesser extent, and the Passenger Books people seem to think the production and presentation of the work are just as important as the end content.
Under those circumstances I would say self publishing is a completely valid form of expression.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
But what's supposed to be the harm with self-publishing? Like I said above, it's no different than having your own t-shirt design made up, or as NWOD said, putting your own tunes up on a web site, or your own pictures, or a blog, or fucking anything on a website. It's just that in a book form it's more, what's the word, "tangible"? Yes, "able to be perceived by touch". That'll do.
I know there must be millions of shite poetry compilations and hopeless fanzines out there. But there's not exactly a shortage of those which are published through the "traditional" channels. Things don't have to be good to make it big (have you met a single person that likes The Da Vinci Code?) and they don't have to be crap to disappear into obscurity (anyone got a favourite song on a CD no one else has ever heard of?)
People do have a natural urge to create, and to have other people admire their creations. 2-year-olds go, "Look! Look! I done picture!" 90-year-olds go, "I've knitted you a lovely pair of hats, dear. Wear them, that all may see my creations."
I suppose the problem comes when the vanity publisher actually really does think they've done something special. But then, sometimes they have.
Posted by LowLevel (Member # 30) on :
quote:Originally posted by London: What is wrong with EVERYBODY ON THIS FUCKING WEBSITE.
Dude...
Seriously - I was wearing a wry smile an' ever't'ing...
Sheesh - It's true what they say about you gingers and your hot-temprament...
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
the urge to create can easily be countered by computer games, dang. Might be a cheaper and safer option.
Posted by London (Member # 29) on :
Not always, though... look at violinist Owen Pallett of Final Fantasy, or Kieron and all his books and comics and projects...
Posted by Dr. Benway (Member # 20) on :
yes, that's true.
Perhaps what I meant to say was, being a fat lazy sack of shit can counter the urge to create. Which is cheaper than self publishing.
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Just to chuck in my hap'orth, at this late stage - I reckon you should go for it, with the caveat that you should avoid the sort of 'publishers' that make bullshit promises in writing magazines and the small ads of the national papers. Simply seek out the print copy firm that offers the best deal - and, as London says, anything that you can affordably add to the project's USP (hand-printed covers, individual numbering, w/evs) is good.
The one thing you probably need is some sort of plan for distribution: it's all very well saying you'll "just" leave copies on public transport or weherever... the reality of lugging twenty copies about your manor, tripping over copies you already left lying around - when you have another 960 units to dispose of - should give you pause. I know what boxes full of remaindered books look like and they're the exact fucking opposite of uplifting.
I think Thorn's arguments would have more validity if you were doing this to try and become the next Irvine Welsh - as such, the tactic would be analogous to entering X-Factor because you wanted to be a respected pop artist - as it is, if the intention is purely experimental creativity, go for it. Whatever experience you gain might help you move onto wherever the 'next level' might be. Just, as I said, avoid the publishing sharks - those are what I think the W&A are on about when they talk about 'vanity' publishing and what they say is fairly valid.
"Good luck Dang". Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
[EASIEST] self-abuse self-harm self-awareness self-help self-congratulation self-reliance self-employment self-publishing [HARDEST]
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :
Where can I get my hands on one of these whacky sprocket manuals?
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
quote:Originally posted by jnhoj: If I ever finish this stupid fucking nano book I'm goddamn going to vanity publish and cry myself to sleep at night pouring over the ghastly pages. It'll serve as a reminder to never write again!
It's poring not pouring over pages. this isn't me being a pedant - this is me saving you from a fucking beating one day.
Posted by dang65 (Member # 102) on :
That explains a lot. I've done all the others, in that order. (If you count IT contracting as self-employment, or employment at all for that matter.)
Posted by ben (Member # 13) on :
Also: self abuse shifts to the harder end of the spectrum depending on your commitment to undertaking it in new and interesting places.
"I cracked one off next to the ball pool in the Beefeater, Monks Cross, and was nearly fucking lynched." Posted by MiscellaneousFiles (Member # 60) on :
quote:Originally posted by ben: "I cracked one off next to the ball pool in the Beefeater, Monks Cross, and was nearly fucking lynched."
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