Lame name for a thread I know, but I just wanted to get things started. There were lots of great things about it, for my money, but one of my favourite sections was Finn and Rose at the casino city/planet (whose name I can't remember). Rose tagging it as 'the worst place in the world' - which of course makes you view it in a sceptical light when you first see it. Alongside the Mos Eisley cantina music which draws a nice parallel and is very pointed. I liked the character-beat of Finn changing his mind when Rose shows him that the whole edifice is built on the pain of others. I really liked the nod to Cecil Beaton's racetrack scene in My Fair Lady which is also full of monochromatically-dressed rich (and by TLJ implication unpleasant) people gambling. The cat-horse things were lovely and they did get to 'punch a fist' through the whole place. The Benicio del Toro stuff was a great relationship too, but deserves its own post.
[ 28.12.2017, 07:38: Message edited by: Octavia ]
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
I enjoyed it but I wasn't sold on it..
Laura Dern didn't need to be in it at all.. To my mind they should have let Ackbar survive the blowing up of the bridge of the ship along with space Mary Poppins and then he should have been the one to remain on the ship, slowly turn it around and face the destroyers...
Then one of the crew - maybe Adrian Edmonson - says 'He's running away" to which Captain Canady replies simply 'It's a trap !' before Ackbar light speeds the fuckers.. What a send off !
Things I wasn't sure about:
Space Mary Poppins - What was that ? Force 'FaceTime' ? Is Chewie now mates with the Porgs or farming them for food on the Falcon ? Snoke gets chopped in half and dies - Darth Maul gets chopped in half AND falls down a big hole but doesn't - are bad guys getting shitter ? Bomb bay doors open and bombs fall out but there's no vacuum - Force fields ? Black BB8 - That was just there to sell toys right ?
There's more - But all in all it was good romp.. And I've seen in twice now...
[ 28.12.2017, 12:46: Message edited by: Darryn.R ]
Posted by Octavia (Member # 398) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Laura Dern didn't need to be in it at all..
Space Mary Poppins - What was that ? Force 'FaceTime' ? Is Chewie now mates with the Porgs or farming them for food on the Falcon ? Snoke gets chopped in half and dies - Darth Maul gets chopped in half AND falls down a big hole but doesn't - are bad guys getting shitter ? Bomb bay doors open and bombs fall out but there's no vacuum - Force fields ? Black BB8 - That was just there to sell toys right ?
There's more - But all in all it was good romp.. And I've seen in twice now...
I liked Holdo, and to be honest it was more interesting seeing her interact with Poe Dameron than it would have been a giant red lobster trying to tick him off. I've no objection to new characters and it gives a sense of the breadth of the Resistance. Otherwise you get that feeling of the same few characters doing everything that feels more forced after a while. I like that Johnson trusted his audience enough to bring in new people.
I thought Leia just did a little Force-pull on the ship and that was enough to haul her onboard.
*shrug* Again, I don't feel as though the audience is expected to know everything about the Force and it's always been about the interconnectedness of things. Yoda and/or Ben coming back to chat to Luke has always been there - if the essence of a Jedi is immortal I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say 'yes telepathy'.
Assuming Chewie's now friends with the porgs after he gave up eating them.
I didn't know that about Darth Maul, but I assumed the three prequels were shit.
Bombs got a push? They have science-y field technology (eg shields for ships) so no reason they shouldn't have been 'pushed' out of the bomber. Alternatively the ships' gravitational fields could extend some little way beyond the hull, so if you're close enough, things will 'drop' towards it.
Yes.
I enjoyed it way more than I expected to - looking forward to seeing it again.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: To my mind they should have let Ackbar survive the blowing up of the bridge of the ship along with space Mary Poppins and then he should have been the one to remain on the ship, slowly turn it around and face the destroyers...
Then one of the crew - maybe Adrian Edmonson - says 'He's running away" to which Captain Canady replies simply 'It's a trap !' before Ackbar light speeds the fuckers.. What a send off !
I've seen quite a few comments like this, about Holdo and about various other things in the film. What it boils down to is - fan-favourite character didn't get the awesome heroic scene that fans thought thye shoul have. And I say that the film is much better for it.
Johnson wants the audience to go through the journey with Poe Dameron - he wants us to feel the same revelation he feels at the end of the film. We're invited not to trust Holdo; to assume that she's a coward and that there's no plan, and that only Poe Dameron's plan going off successfully will save the day. It makes it more powerful then when his plan does fail, and you feel gutted because you were expecting it to go as intended because Poe is the hero of the film and the hero always saves the day. And as he realises the implications of his failure - first feeling that the Resistance are done for, then starting to understand that he's been a fool and he's needlessly endangered the lives of the people he was trying to save - all because his own ego couldn't accept that someone else was in charge. This is the central revelation of the film - it's a theme repeated over and over. This isn't going to go how you expected. The heroes aren't the heroes - the Galaxy doesn't need to be saved by a tiny number of special people who are predestined for greatness.
This entire arc couldn't have worked with Ackbar. He's another hero character, and nobody in the audience would buy that he was a coward or a fool. Holdo works because we don't know her and we don't trust her. We judge her solely on what we see of her in the film, which is exactly what Poe sees. And if Johnson had tried to create that same tension using Ackbar you can bet that fans would have been incensed at the attempt to undermine his character.
This is the problem with the relationship fans have with these new movies - fans have been imagining these films pretty much their whole lives. And frankly mot people are not good film writers and just want to see their favourite characters being awesome and saving the day over and over again, preferably up to the point of a heroic, self-sacrificing death. People are so invested in the idea, feel so entitled to see the film they've imagined since they were kids, that they feel outraged when someone gives them something different. After all, how dare this Rian Johnson character just come along and tell us that the Jedi were wrong! I've been a fan since I saw the first film in the cinema (which I still refer to as 'Star Wars' and not Episode whatever because I'm a true fan..), so I know more about Star Wars than this chump!
Imagine how shit that would be. That's the Expanded Universe in a nutshell - book after book, comic after comic, of turgid, unchallenging, fan-wank. The best thing Disney ever did was throw that in the bin, and then follow it up by releasing a film which literally throws all your assumptions about the universe of Star Wars out the window.
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: Things I wasn't sure about:
Space Mary Poppins - What was that ? Force 'FaceTime' ? Is Chewie now mates with the Porgs or farming them for food on the Falcon ? Snoke gets chopped in half and dies - Darth Maul gets chopped in half AND falls down a big hole but doesn't - are bad guys getting shitter ? Bomb bay doors open and bombs fall out but there's no vacuum - Force fields ?
As Octavia says - the scene looked a bit shonky but there's nothing particularly revelatory that Leia is able to lasso the ship with the Force and pull herself in.
Force Facetime - yes, this was in the Original Trilogy if you remember, where Luke, Leia, and Vader were able to communicate with one another across distances. Granted not with the kind of clarity we see here, but then Ren himself remarks on it - "you can't be doing this, the effort would kill you" - it's so strong because it's being facilitated by a third Force user - Snoke.
Porgs and Chewie - Yeah, like, Chewbacca is probably the softest character in the whole franchise. Watch back and look for the cues - him timidly refusing to go down the garbage chute for instance. So I totally buy him looking a cute Porg in its giant sad eyes and not being able to eat them. Probably a vegetarian now. Realistically they're a foil for Chewie to add some comic relief. And merchandising, oh the merchandising...
Cut in half - Darth Maul is a Zabrak, and Snoke is... what, human? Something else? I don't know, but clearly they're from different species so I can buy the possibility that what is a mortal injury for one race is merely a flesh wound (fixable with some neat robotic chicken legs) for another.
No vacuum - Yeah this is in almost every Star Wars film - massive doors open to space and people don't get sucked out, so I've always assumed a force-field of some sort stops that happening. And the bombs 'dropping' in space only requires some basic downward propulsion.
So yeah, I loved this film. In my opinion it's the best in the franchise, especially in terms of nuance and storytelling. I think it leaves a sour taste for a lot of fans specifically because of what makes it so good for others - namely that it absolutely deconstructs everything you take for granted about the Star Wars universe. But it's such a fresh take, one which opens up so many possibilities going forward. The Universe after this trilogy will be left fundamentally changed - no Jedi, no Sith, perhaps no evil Empire and no plucky Rebellion. And a very different relationship between people and The Force - it being something available and accessible to anyone no matter their background, with no need for fanatical fascistic sects like the Jedi to control every single element pf people's lives. I'm actually really excited to see where it's going and for the first time, I actually feel like I have no idea where it'll end up. For a franchise as well trodden as Star Wars to achieve that in just one film - a film which somehow also feels absolutely true and faithful to the broader Star Wars Universe - is an incredible achievement.
Posted by Banana (Member # 89) on :
This film, and both the other recent films, have had some of the Star Wars joy rubbed off for me in that they clearly have scenes that are there purely for the console gaming market and have characters that are added by the Disney money churning machine. But that's the world we live in now and helps fund all the films we love, I just find myself a bit cynical and have to try and stop analysing every scene for potential meddling.
Nazi BB8 being a prime example, only there so that another robot toy can be sold. I'm sure Poe said in TFA that BB8 was special as he was a prototype and then a dark version pops up out of nowhere.
Leia in space did feel a bit off and definitely looked shonky (good word!).
I loved the red crystal salt plains scenes, made for some dramatic contrast although when luke was facing Kylo the first thing I checked were his feet. I however thought he was doing the dead Jedi thing rather than projecting himself, it was very obvious that it wasn't him in the flesh though.
There were a few twists that weren't actually all that unexpected, Like not being there really, Kylo and Ren not really being on the same side after all, Snoke getting skewered by Kylo.
The darkness of Del Torros character was great and very unexpected in a Disney franchise, hey kids the world isn't black and white and people do stuff for money.
I need to watch the film again and I will do as yes it had its flaws and no I'm not going fan girl crazy over it but I enjoyed the story and think it does open up a world of possibilities for the next installment. Hopefully no bloody porgs next time though
Posted by Octavia (Member # 398) on :
Ringo's analysis of why Holdo works is moar betterer than mine and I'd like to be clear that I agree with everything he said.
There was just so much that was good about this film. The relationships in particular were so deftly handled it was a joy to watch - they drove the film. Snoke and Ben, for example. Snoke's constant belittling of Ben: "you're just a child in a mask" - perpetually pushing Ben to try ever harder to please him, to make him proud - and Snoke's gleeful reveal that it was him facilitating the contact between Ben and Rey. Ben's resentment when he realises how he's been manipulated and his distaste for Snoke's presence in his mind - as Snoke says, reading his thoughts. And Ben finally recognising the warped father-son relationship and rebelling against that. One constant thread in the Star Wars movies is the parent-child dynamic. So many excellent interactions between people that drove the plot - Luke and Ben, Rey and Ben, Snoke and Ben. Rey and Luke, Holdo and Poe, Leia and Poe, Rose and Finn. Proper character-driven work - people Do Things because of Who They Are not because:plot.
Also I really enjoyed the symbolism. I've already mentioned the black-and-white casino that picks up the classic My Fair Lady scene, but tiny things like the salt covering the planet. There's a reason for the guy tasting it and saying 'salt'. Salt can kill but it also preserves and saves. We can't do without it - it represents memory and life but also death. It ties in with the whole 'balance' ethos - one side cannot do without the other. If Ben, then Rey - one strong Force-user will beget another to oppose them. The salt on the planet is the death of the old resistance and the preservation of its heart.
[ 29.12.2017, 05:06: Message edited by: Octavia ]
Posted by Thorn Davis (Member # 65) on :
Agree completely with Ringo's thoughts. Having Admiral Ackbar on the bridge would have undermined everything the film was - successfully - doing in terms of freeing Star Wars from the old mythology. The film is obsessed on all levels with the idea of tearing down the past, an approach in direct opposition to the nostalgia-fest that was The Force Awakens. That manifests itself in a literal sense - such as Ren's speech to Rey - and at a storytelling level, going to war not just with the conventions of Star Wars movies but with blockbuster tropes en masse. Over and over again a 'big moment' gets cued up and flipped on its head. I found myself rolling my eyes at the code-breaker plotline, with its predictable ticking-clock. Yawn, I thought, of course they're going to make it - they always do. And then they don't. And of course, Poe mutinees against the silly Admiral who doesn't have faith in his one-in-a-million-long-shot plan... only for it to transpire that he would have gotten everyone killed, and that a more thoughtful, longterm tactical plan with a lower likelihood of failure was the answer.
That's the kind of thing that never happens in big Hollywood movies. Indeed, the only upshot of Poe's 'typical scifi movie plan' is that they pick up a new loveable rogue whose skills save them when they need it most... only for him to turn out to be a dickhead who betrays them and gets 90% of the Rebellion killed. After all - they didn't really know anything about this guy when they threw in with him and their typical 'movie lucky break' turned out to be a disaster. I saw elsewhere someone suggesting that this would have been a great moment to bring back Lando Calrissian - but again, it would leave this series of films enslaved to the OT - and of course you wouldn't be able to have the betrayal that ends up with the near-destruction of the Rebellion, which is the main and dire consequence of the 'hunt for the codebreaker' sub-plot.
I loved that - over and over again, tropes upended and expectations thwarted in the hope of finding a way for a Star Wars movie to say and be something new. And it worked - instead of becoming a message of "hey - go off half-cocked on a gung ho plan and f--k everyone who has the evidence to demonstrate it will get people killed - you're right because you believe strongly enough", it counsels restraint, thoughtfulness, co-operation, planning. The big self-destructive sacrifice at the end, jettisoned instead for a new idea about the power of a collective. Even Luke's final stand turns out to be non-confrontational, his death not violent like Obi-Wan's but serene and peaceful.
It's also the most visually arresting - the blood-red salt stain outside the mine, the racks of bombs in the rebel ships, the pile of smoking X-Wings in the docking bay... it rivals Rogue One for heavy-hitting visuals, and then exceeds it by packing them with more meaning. What's more - because of the movie's constant thwarting of hope and expectation, the big moments land better. Finn's 'Rebel scum', the lightspeed space-ship bullet, the arrival of the Millenium Falcon in the final battle - all feel that much stronger because the movie is sparing with them, rather than gorging on them non-stop like TFA did.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
Saying about use of colour, did you notice the lack of blue? Star Wars films have always used red and blue to represent dark and light, evil and good, Sith and Jedi. Notably in the scene where Ben murders Han where the colour of the light on his face shifts mid scene. It’s reflected in lightsaber colours as well. But this film had a very clear red and white colour palette with no prominent blues.
It struck me that the showdown scene in TFA between Rey and Ren is lit very clearly blue, before the Starkiller base starts to burn up. I’m not sure if it’s deliberate symmetry but the scene in Snokes chamber where Rey and Ren join forces is very clearly red, and then it is consumed by flames. Both scenes show the ‘destruction’ of an environment lit with one of the two primary colours of The Force, and both feature Rey and Ren together. Perhaps indicating that together they’re going to abandon the old dogma of Light and Dark and move forward into a new age of understanding that rejects the teachings of the old establishments.
Also yeah the red and white salt world looked amazing. I loved the big overhead shot of the speeders carving their straight lines, becoming increasingly chaotic, before being reduced to a giant ugly bloodstain after the attack on Luke. The scene there with the Falcon had me wanting to jump out of my seat and punch the air, especially with the classic space battle theme from A New Hope. Actually all of the battle scenes were brilliant in this film. My favourite probably being the opening assault on the dreadnaught.
Posted by Octavia (Member # 398) on :
Also <girly voice>I am totally shipping Rey and Ben now, but I think it's a shame Finn and Poe don't seem destined for each other.</girly voice>
Posted by Darryn.R (Member # 1) on :
Yeah OK... So maybe you're right in the context of the movie that Holdo is a better choice for that part of the story than Ackbar but - I still wonder why we needed the whole segment at all..
Given the death of Carrie Fisher it could have been much worse with Holdo editted out and replaced with a Fisher 'light speed suicide' to neatly write her out - Thankfully they didn't go that route..
There's a lot I loved about the film - The handbrake turn of the X-Wing by Poe, the bloody stain as mentioned earlier from the red salt, the way in which Finn and Rose interact there are a lot of great moments..
But it seems over extended - a little too long - the last scene with the kid walking out and the broom jumping into his hand - That should have been enough but they extended it, used the broom handle to look like a light sabre - it just seems too much - If the broom had just jumped to his hand and he'd put his head down and carried on sweeping it would, for me, have been an almost perfect ending but they over egged the pudding - and that's kinda how I feel about the whole film.. It had all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order...
And while I'm saying stuff..
Daisy Ridley - Was it just me or is the poor girl a little wooden ?
[ 29.12.2017, 12:21: Message edited by: Darryn.R ]
Posted by Octavia (Member # 398) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: But it seems over extended - a little too long - the last scene with the kid walking out and the broom jumping into his hand - That should have been enough but they extended it, used the broom handle to look like a light sabre
I do agree that it felt at points as though Rian didn't know where to end it, but I didn't feel that about the kid and his broom. I liked it as a representation of the 'next generation' of Force-users coming up, and the way he looked up to the stars. His future is out there, and it's probably fighting the First Order. I liked that he knows about the Resistance now, that he thinks of himself as part of it, and his natural response was to adopt a fighting pose - today a broom, tomorrow a lightsaber. The scene also works for me in terms of the passage of time. The movie takes place in a very short span - just over a week, seemingly, and it takes place immediately after Force Awakens, so the whole two movies probably cover around a month of time. But the boy/broom scene not only tells us that time has passed since the showdown at the mine (because there's been time for the story of Luke and the AT-ATs to spread) but gives us a sense of the sweep of time that may pass before the next film, as the next generation grows up. I like the pulled-back view, the sense of perspective that you lose when you're in the down-and-dirty of the story.
[ 03.01.2018, 07:19: Message edited by: Octavia ]
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
It also better echoes the theme of balance - as Snoke says, the light rises up to meet the darkness. Just seeing a kid with Force powers is ambiguous, but it becomes clear, he looks at the ring, holds the broom like a lightsaber and looks to the stars. It's easy to forget because it was a bit of an underplayed moment in TFA, but we're led to believe that most of the Resistance is wiped out in one blow by Starkiller base. The kid isn't just the Force, he's the Light, rising up to meet the darkness in response to the darkness trying to eradicate the light. In a film which tears down just about every other central tenet of the franchise, this one element remains - that balance is the natural state of being, and neither the light nor the darkness can be eradicated.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
All the artistry, weight, emotional complexity and cultural value of a withered Subway sandwich. A handful of "good shots" towards the end, which prodded at the remaining blobs of necrotising nostalgia, but nothing connected to any kind of story or cinema. The horrendous buzzfeed snark and unbelievably poor humour liberally cgi-pebbledashed across every bland rehashed scene just drove home how desperate and hollow the whole enterprise is. To describe any of it as brave or innovative or even compelling in any way requires strenuous tunnel vision.
All any of these poor fucks can do is not get fired by Kathleen. The task at hand is just assembling a jigsaw puzzle comprised of pieces of fan service and nerd rage, and making sure the post production schedule lines up with the global marketing campaign crescendo.
I feel sorry for all involved, including us, the audience, who are reduced to trawling through the minutiae of our tentpole corporate experiences in the hope of finding a shadow of humanity.
Anyway I respect that others may have had a different experience.
[ 12.02.2018, 18:27: Message edited by: Kanye West ]
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Actually.. I don't really care that much. It's not totally horrible, just sort of bland and meh and "fine" and recognisably Star Wars and another sequel in a juggernaut franchise. I didn't enjoy it, and it left me tired and empty, but it's pretty much the same as any modern Disney style blockbuster, and it was be absurd of me to hope for anything other than what it was. I had the exact same feeling at the end of fast eight. And marvel civil war. But it's my problem. I'm not equipped to engage with this. I'm weary and bored before the pre-credits info blast has completed. Not the fault of the media; it's providing exactly what the audience wants. It's my fault. It's on me. I'm the one who doesn't understand. The film is probably perfect, I'm just unable to watch it in the right way.its not the corporateness that's the problem for me. Star Wars created corporateness and I very much enjoyed it as a child. I'm actually the CEO of Pepsico Europe now, so I understand corporateness and accept that it is the mediator of all human relationships,and the source of all culture. In fact I love that. So it's not that. It's just like. Fuck I don't know. I'm just. I guess I just don't have what it takes, coach. I don't make the team this year.
[ 13.02.2018, 04:19: Message edited by: Kanye West ]
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
I did like Kylo ren / bandy's high waisted trousers and sweaty nip nips. He was an actual marine at one point did you know. In real life. Liked him in midnight special. Liked that film. Had a bit of space stuff. I don't hate space stuff. I watched "life" a month or so ago, which was a lot of space stuff, and was ok. A shiny b movie, not bad.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Well actually I'm not sure if he was a marine. Armed forces.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
I will look it up hold on
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Ok I was right the first time. A marine.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
So to answer the original question, thumbs down.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
I'm enjoying ringo's quote on the front page of this website btw. Oh, 2006.
Posted by Ringo (Member # 47) on :
I am not a fan.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
At least, during your long posting career, you were able to come up with something good enough, that had a... "je ne sais quoi".. about it, for the editors to put it on the front page. You did better than I.
[ 16.02.2018, 10:19: Message edited by: Kanye West ]
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
I just checked it again, and it's still delivering.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Watched Hellraiser Judgment last night. Complete shit.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Watched Brawl in Cell Block 99 tonight. Really great. Two thumbs and a severly compound fractured elbow up.
Posted by Kanye West (Member # 837) on :
Watched 'Il miele del diavolo'. Risible.
Posted by jonesy999 (Member # 5) on :