posted
i have decided to stay out of these conversations seeing as the last time i expressed my vague befuddlement at the hp phenom an hp obsessive threw a fishknife at me in ager at my blasphemy. a fishknife! i think she got confused and thought she could turn it into a magickal lightening bolt midair or something.
(by the way, the woman in question is a cambridge graduate, fluent in four languages. im casting no aspersions about the intelligence of hp fans any more).
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quote:Originally posted by Gemini: What is being argued is that the HP books aren't as well written as other childrens literature and some of us can't see what adults see in these books when if they want to read childrens literature there are better examples around that can challenge the adult brain.
C'mon - how can you seriously talk about "challenging the adult brain" when you read Terry Pratchett and got excited about Van fucking Helsing, for Christ's sake.
No-one wants to spend their whole time having their brain melted by literary mind-fucks like The Magus. I don't think any one reads Harry Potter for the challenge - that's what grown up books were for. Why would you read a children's book to challenge your adult brain? Wouldn't you just read an adult book? Isn't reading Harry Potter just like eating a tub of strawberry ice cream? You'd have problems if that was all you ate, but I don't think it does much harm once every two years.
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quote:Originally posted by Gemini: I don't think that anyone has said that she isn't a "proper" writer, or that the books aren't enjoyable. Nor has anyone said that a childrens book is easy to write.
Hmm. Maybe I read it wrong then, but saying that "JK Rowling [...] just happened to have a quite good plot idea" seems to imply that if anyone else had been lucky enough to stumble on that idea then it would've been easy for them to churn out a series of bestselling books too. Maybe that's not what Hippy meant, but she hasn't denied it so far, besides damning JKR with faint praise by calling her "workmanlike".
quote:Originally posted by Gemini: What is being argued is that the HP books aren't as well written as other childrens literature and some of us can't see what adults see in these books when if they want to read childrens literature there are better examples around that can challenge the adult brain.
This really does depend on your definition of "well written" though. To me, the storytelling is the most important aspect of, well, a story. If a writer can draw me in and relax me and make me willingly suspend my disbelief and lose myself in the tale then they've succeeded in good storytelling.
Can we start seeing a list of children's books which non-HP converts consider to be "better" than HP?
quote:Originally posted by discodamage: i have decided to stay out of these conversations seeing as the last time i expressed my vague befuddlement at the hp phenom an hp obsessive threw a fishknife at me in ager at my blasphemy. a fishknife! i think she got confused and thought she could turn it into a magickal lightening bolt midair or something.
quote:Originally posted by Gemini: What is being argued is that the HP books aren't as well written as other childrens literature and some of us can't see what adults see in these books when if they want to read childrens literature there are better examples around that can challenge the adult brain.
C'mon - how can you seriously talk about "challenging the adult brain" when you read Terry Pratchett and got excited about Van fucking Helsing, for Christ's sake.
No-one wants to spend their whole time having their brain melted by literary mind-fucks like The Magus. I don't think any one reads Harry Potter for the challenge - that's what grown up books were for. Why would you read a children's book to challenge your adult brain? Wouldn't you just read an adult book? Isn't reading Harry Potter just like eating a tub of strawberry ice cream? You'd have problems if that was all you ate, but I don't think it does much harm once every two years.
umm I've never read TP, but yes I was looking forward to watching VH. I don't know, maybe because I look for different things in my films than I do in my books. I'm not a flim buff so don't get as worked up about the intracacies.
Challenge is probably the wrong word, involve might be a better one. I don't understand what an adult gets from a HP book. If we are going to use ice-cream analogies HP is like the Tesco value strawberry ice-cream and someone like Philip Pullman is the Hagen-Daz.
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quote:Originally posted by Gemini: umm I've never read TP,
Sorry about that: that was a nasty slur on my part if it's not true. I just dimly recalled you defending him in the past. Maybe you were just commenting on literary snobbishness in general. Maybe it was Ben Elton, in which case my point still stands.
It's all very well saying "But Philip Pullman is better!" but people may well read both. It's not an either/or thing.
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posted
I was going to suggest we do this - not submit our attempts to the Guardian but post them on TMO for our own amusement. But when I tried to write one I realised I didn't know enough about Harry Potter to write something that would make sense. Maybe it doesn't matter. Shall we try? I bagsy Faulkner.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: Can we start seeing a list of children's books which non-HP converts consider to be "better" than HP?
yes, I'd be interested to see what people put forward on this list.
I think Rowling is a pretty decent writer, with lots of good ideas, great attention to detail and a shrewd idea of how to develop a long soap-opera style plot. Undeniably, she writes about stuff which is already guaranteed to be popular, and was fortunate to start publishing at a time when the LOTR films started a magyckal revival. I'm not sure who's the Bestest Best Childrens Writer Ever, but I'd put Rowling in the Top Five.
I guess a major reason for the success is the anticipation of waiting for the next installment, and the bonding through speculation about how the story will pan out. Like I say, Wilkie Collins' The Woman In White created a similarly frenzied response when it was printed in installments to tantalise the public . It's obviously been so long since something was delivered in this manner that readers are in the mood to be teased by the publishers in this way.
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quote:Originally posted by Gemini: umm I've never read TP,
Sorry about that: that was a nasty slur on my part if it's not true. I just dimly recalled you defending him in the past. Maybe you were just commenting on literary snobbishness in general. Maybe it was Ben Elton, in which case my point still stands.
It's all very well saying "But Philip Pullman is better!" but people may well read both. It's not an either/or thing.
No I remember trashing Ben Elton on these boards as well
Yes people may very well read both but I can see why there is a fuss about Philip Pullman and can also see why adults might enjoy it, and might even understand the underlying themes better than a child i.e. there is something there for adults as well as children. This is not something I get with HP.
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H1ppychick
We all prisoners, chickee-baby. We all locked in.
posted
I've just read it; it's not bad. A bit of a return to earlier form, in fact. Quite pacy, most of the time. Hmmm. OK. Yes, she's quite a good children's writer. I'm persuaded.
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Dang- the only thing I find consistently readable on Barbelith is the HP discussions. Quite interesting to see how people are split between thinking Snape is evil or not.
I think it's a given that he did what he did as part of some cunning Dumbo plan to SAVE THE UNIVERSE!
I enjoyed Book 5, but my favourite is still Book 3, with 4 a close second.
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posted
I've never been to that Barbeleith place. Might have to pop over there. I really enjoyed the new book, though it was frustrating that I really couldn't remember huge chunks of the previous book, which kept getting referred to. Mrs Dang said the same thing. Our copy must've been hexed or something. Anyway, the whole story is very nicely brewed ready for the final book. She'll probably get run over by a bus or something now, knowing my luck.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: though it was frustrating that I really couldn't remember huge chunks of the previous book, which kept getting referred to. Mrs Dang said the same thing. Our copy must've been hexed or something.
I thought the same thing too. Though I put my total amnesia about major plot developments in the last book down to the disposability the series, rather than a hex.
When that character gets killed off, my mind kept wandering to a Dead Ringers (I think) sketch in which LOTR and HP cinematic wizards compete to be the most wizardy.
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Oh, I agree with you two! I was worried I was the only HP reader (fan?) who couldn’t remember all these random people to which references were made – and those initials at the end…real HP fans already have a list of people to match. Posts: 687
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posted
I've read most of the books about 5 times so that wasn't a problem. I didn't pick up on the mention of Arabella Figg at the end of HP4, and the Mrs Figg who was Harry's neighbour in HP1 though.
Someone on Barbelith has guessed at the identity of R.A.B and I think they're right- want me to spill?
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
posted
Have they guessed Sirius' brother? That seems to be the most popular theory at the moment on a number of boards I'm not naming, as that would reveal I go there.
I didn't have plotholes for last book, as I dedicatedly read Book 4 again beforehand. And I totally fell for the Snape evil thing, because I am thick.
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quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: I've read most of the books about 5 times so that wasn't a problem. I didn't pick up on the mention of Arabella Figg at the end of HP4, and the Mrs Figg who was Harry's neighbour in HP1 though.
Someone on Barbelith has guessed at the identity of R.A.B and I think they're right- want me to spill?
Please do VogPot ... I thought it might be summit to do with Sirius, but wasn't his brother already killed ?
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posted
Go on, reveal.... I've only heard one theory mentioned but since it's a character we haven't met directly, I wouldn't have a clue.
So, any real fans here want to admit to planning a paper for the Accio conference?
I didn't think much of their suggested discussion areas, but then again if none of us can actually remember the backstory this session could prove particularly short:
quote:Mythopoeia, Etymology and other sources of inspiration: How appreciation of JK Rowling's use of "what has gone before" is important to our understanding of the series.
posted
Yes, Regulus Black seems the most likely candidate- presumably he stole it and stashed it (perhaps somewhere in the house that Harry now owns) before he got killed.
As also mentioned on Barbelith, the phenomenon of moving wizard pictures and the talking portraits of the dead needs to be explained.
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posted
Regulus Black: that's what I read somewhere too.
The dead characters speaking from portraits do need explaining don't they? JK appears to draw attention to some metaphysical discomfort around this when a recently killed character crops up in a portrait and no one looks them in the eye.
I presume it doesn't make portraits horcruxes does it?
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quote:Originally posted by OJ: Regulus Black: that's what I read somewhere too.
The dead characters speaking from portraits do need explaining don't they? JK appears to draw attention to some metaphysical discomfort around this when a recently killed character crops up in a portrait and no one looks them in the eye.
I presume it doesn't make portraits horcruxes does it?
They'd have to kill someone to make a horcrux and that doesn't sit well with all the Headmasters having them. Must be summit else.
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posted
I did wonder if <the person that dies in this book> might have sorted out a horcrux for themselves, thus not being particularly bothered if they were "killed". But that would be a bit of a cop out, and JKR doesn't usually do that.
Also, I saw a thread title somewhere: Is Harry Potter a horcrux?
posted
The 'person' made quite a lot of the fact that Harry was a complete soul so no .... ooh hang on, I see what you mean... ooh thats a twist alright.
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posted
I wish other people on here read 100 Bullets, then I'd be able to have conversations like this. Book 8 of 100 Bullets came out last friday, and I haven't stopped thinking about it yet, going so far as to draw up a list of the activated minutemen, against their codenames, etc. I also wonder whether Graves and Shepherd have been working together from the start, and there's been an ingenious plan to ingratiate Lono back into the trust just like Graves wants. It's tricky stuff. God I love it. I love it so much. 100 Bullets is the single greatest English Language artistic acheivement in the last 100 years.
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quote:Originally posted by Vanilla Online Persona: second thoughts, Lord V would hardly attempt to destroy his own horcrux would he.
Are we sure he's trying to destroy HP? He might just be trying to recover that bit of his soul and then found out that the host is a bit of a speccy pain in the arse. It does say somewhere that the snake is one and that Voldemort has an uncanny communication with said animal. Doesn't he have uncanny communication with HP too?
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I wish other people on here read 100 Bullets, then I'd be able to have conversations like this.
I read a bit of this over the shoulder of a insanely cute girl on the train the other morning, if that helps? But she got up and moved seats after a few minutes, so I didn't get to digest all that much of the story.
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quote:Originally posted by Louche: I read a bit of this over the shoulder of a insanely cute girl on the train the other morning, if that helps? But she got up and moved seats after a few minutes, so I didn't get to digest all that much of the story.
Fantastic! I might try that if the train is crowded tonight. Except that I always get crowded by sweaty, nondescript blokes. Does it work with them too?
posted
yeah but no but yeah. well, it fits with the prophecy 'tis true. It's a possibility. Also, it explains why the Hat wanted to put Harry in Slyth.
posted
I think we should stop pussy-footing around and name the HP6 deadee. The book's been out for nearly two weeks now; if people haven't read it yet then they're not proper fans and are thus of no concern to us.
I'm expecting an explanation of how Harry's dad got hold of the very rare invisibility cloak. Could this be another possible contender for a horcrux? I'm pretty sure it's going to be something that's appeared in a previous book- like Ron's dull pet rat actually being a disguised spy.
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