As my friend and co-denier David Irving once said, I say, quite tastelessly in fact, that more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz.
Tasteless? Maybe. Am I tasteless? Possibly. Yes, so I make the occasional (lol) jibe about pikeyes being inbred thieves and blacke people being "gold-toothed jigaboos" (not my words, but words used by 69CE Elvis to describe my alleged mindset). I have insulted some people by my attitude to some of the tales from the dark side of WW2 history. I have pissed people off by my complete and utter bloody-mindedness. I have offended the more sensitive types by suggesting that Gail might have rats lurking in her mimsy. And for suggesting - Lord Almighty strike me down - that she is rather "portly".
But tell me, people - do I have a monopoly on tastelessness? Or do some people choose to see my sometimes crass remarks as just that and those made by others as some form of wacky humour?
Now here is wisdom, for I shall cut to the chase. There are a number of people who have posted tasteless things on here. But the purpose of this thread is to highlight the tastelessless of a person who has done much to promote himself as something of the opposite, as some sort of "voice of the greater TMO taste". I am of course talking about Ben, TMO's high priestess, who ventured last week into the hitherto unknown area of using biblical quotations as putdowns. As if this was one of the final stages in his long and winding route to ordainment.
In my runnings with Ben, I have noticed his two clear personalities - the high-and-mighty preacher-speak on the one hand:
quote:
Are you the huffing and puffing of the wind, Cody? Or the growl of the earthquake? Or the hollow crackle and roar of the fire?
And the basest of insults on the other, usually when he finds himself short of something better to say and/or when he finds himself forced into a corner:
quote:
you fucking spastic.
He pontificates about my alleged nastiness, yet then rolls out wonderful ditties like the following:
quote:
Rick J, Rick J
"Deformo the Rat Boy"
Core of envy and thwarted vanity
Compelled by his own deformity
To see baseness everywhere.
Ben is a man who has revelled in spoofing this board with fake tales of e-mails, MSN messaging and subterfuge, yet at the same time he has used similar language and tone when dishing out insults. One only has to wonder what his mindset is when he sits down at his PC and logs in here. I am only asking this question following my reading this:
Penned by Ben:
quote:
Oh, and it would probably be quite good fun to track down Rick J, beat the little fucker to the ground, tie him up then introduce his gurning, dariussy face to the business end of a claw hammer - once there's, say, a dozen or so terrifying, unhealable wounds in his quivering boatrace, rub a handful of hungry maggots into the raw wet redness... then set his legs on fire... then fuck his feet up - Audition-style - then calmly slide half a hundred steel knitting needles into his neck, making a human Ker-Plunk out of his throat.Then: heft the writhing, screaming little pustule onto a gurney (tool of healers! Bitter irony...) and wheel him down to the local chip shop - luckily vacated by the cro-magnon proprietors, who wish to while away their last hours dribbling and wanking to the MDMA sandman's meat-beat - there to crank up the fryers for a bit of last-act poignance as a mobile held to the destroyed, flapping word-hole of Samuelnorton tempts an unwary Nightowl to this stainless steel and lino inferno, where, propped up for a better view, the veritable webmaster of RickDJoshua.com will be obliged to witness the unspeakable Spooks-homage of his g/f's murder.
As this pitiful heap of shredded, right-wing flesh heaves and blubbers at its recent tragic loss I - the hellish author of its woes - will add definitive insult to limitless injury by plucking one of the flesh gorged (though still ravenous) maggots from his ravaged cheeks and coaxing it into his trembling ear-hole, with whispered instructions to eat its way to victory...
What then? While the fiend is racked by paroxysms of unimaginable agony, probably best to drive him down to the local BNP party headquarters and dump him on the pavement there - leaving the form and contents of the last rites up to the surprisingly fertile (in some contexts, at least) imaginations of the bullet-headed, drag-knuckled heroes of the white race.
It is clear that a lot of thought went into this. It is written in the same harsh language as his spoof e-mails of yesteryear. But is it yet another example of Ben's "witticism"? Yes, some may say, with a shrug and a he can't possibly mean that. The low point of course was his involving Nightowl, who has fuck all to do with any dispute we may have on here. And "Dariussy"? Come the fuck on.
I personally think there is more to it, but I am not going to attempt to analyse the text. There is a venom there though, something that was noticeably absent when a few years ago he sent me a private email out of the blue requesting that I remove his head from some spoof Hollywood phoos I had done. Needless to say I relented, roped in by his fawning, faux humility.
What's clear is that it this example of what one might call "creative" writing is undoubtedly tasteless; indeed, it is as tasteless as my suggesting - albeit in full-on troll mode - that all black people are predisposed to commit violent crime.
Ah, but it doesn't end here. Matching my outbursts about pikeys or "Bushey Heath Hebrews", we have Ben posting an image of the murdered Soham girls as a comedic response to an ironic publishing suggestion. No-one batted an eyelid at what was something completely tasteless and unfunny. And yet here's an individual who has often tried to define what is and what is not funny on here - we can only laugh at the things Ben laughs at, children.
And then we have something which perhaps even tops my in comparison childish remarks about Gail's genitalia being rodent-friendly:
quote:
Davystoat, eh? I'm glad I drove that fucker "to the brink of suicide".Him and Jimbo both.
Can this be passed off as spoof? I doubt it, given the justification that followed not long after. Hardly stuff to tell your mother about, is it?
Of course, the veritable Yorkshireman is the only forumite who has displayed his cock for all to see (with any blushes spared by the SeeThru admin team). Come on, how low and tasteless can you get?
As much as I found Turtle/Caretta/Housewife/Ziggy irritating, I think her comment on our great high priestess is probably the most honest and accurate thing that has been said about him on here:
quote:
On the board you [Ben] often come across as a smug, self-satisfied bastard with a closed-minded and patronising attitude which you parade as some sort of righteous anger. You also seem to think that just because you write everything in turgid prose, it makes it all right and somehow irrefutable.
I've nothing more to add, except to ask why is Ben so popular with some people on here? For pity's sake why?
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
lol
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: 69 Comeback Elvis ]
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Everything else pales in comparison!
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
As a consequence, Ben is sometimes subject to criticism when people feel he goes too far and crosses boundaries of taste. As a response, he will either argue that he was trying to gee-up the forum and put a spark into things -- with a feeling of responsiblity and investment that I believe is absolutely genuine on his part, however unpleasant some may find his darker trolling -- or he'll back into a mode you didn't mention, the Wounded Stag. Here we would have a reply like, and I pastiche:
quote:
I'm sorry you feel that way, Disco. Put like that, my Sunday night spent penning this fiction and scouring for images to accompany it seems less like a worthy attempt to give people something to get their teeth into on Monday, and more like the activity of a total mouthgasping shaft-stroker. Well, cheerio for the time being, forum.It seems I'm not in tune with the mood here right now, and perhaps we need some time off from each other.
Fundamentally, though, I think most people believe that Ben's tastelessness is the result of going too far with some twisted whimsy, whereas yours is just the tip of an iceberg of bigotry. No offence! And I think this thread, while unnervingly personal, is good in its close detail and in bringing back a bit of bite to the boards.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:As my friend and co-denier David Irving once said, I say, quite tastelessly in fact, that more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz.
A joke that pours far more explicit contempt on death and suffering than did Ben's enigmatic and not especially pointed use of a Soham-girls photograph as reply to a line about a Man U shirt. He was presumably saying "look at the resonances that shirt has now acquired". You are really saying "Anyone who says millions of Jews died in the Holocaust is a liar."
quote:
Yes, so I make the occasional (lol) jibe about pikeyes being inbred thieves and blacke people being "gold-toothed jigaboos" (not my words, but words used by 69CE Elvis to describe my alleged mindset).
Yes, and I think you do believe something like that. I genuinely think you are quite prejudiced against black people. That's not remotely comparable to Ben putting on a "preacher voice" to banter with Cody Joe Bibby, something I think you've misinterpreted. He was messing around with style. He doesn't believe he is a preacher. You, by contrast, do believe young black men are mainly thieves and perpetuators of degraded culture, and your jokes on the subject are, arguably, cowardly ways of saying it yet being able to back out under cover of "trolling" or "self-parody".
quote:
I have offended the more sensitive types by suggesting that Gail might have rats lurking in her mimsy. And for suggesting - Lord Almighty strike me down - that she is rather "portly".
You don't have to be sensitive to find these remarks disgustingly gratuitous. I think you're lucky Gail is clearly able to deal with your insults maturely, because these personal jibes make you seem like a very nasty, small person. I don't see the need for them at all. Yes, you had some history of animosity there. Who haven't you had some history of animosity with? Gail, however, has not made any personal or other unpleasant remarks about you in the past year to my knowledge. I think you are well overdue in letting this drop.
You're about 8 weeks too late for the "Worst TMO Day" thread, Snoreton.
I can't really be bothered to respond, other than to recall the day in December when ben said he probably wouldn't be able to post again.
Rick, as we know from photos, is a very small coloured boy. Alien Nation was, I suspect, more than a brilliant late night cop show to him. At school he was left out of games because of his glasses and so he fell, as many do, into hero worship. Someone strong, with 20/20 vision and white skin – virile and straight in a confined, manly atmosphere that allows for the accidental touch and brotherly felch. Like Michael Jackson before him, Rick chose a German tank commander.
Ben, as we know from photos, is an awkward, portly man – uneasy amongst more cultured southerners and always battling the bulge. At school he was left out of games because of his inability to play fair. A big farmer’s boy with the associated smells and lunches of rind and cooking apples, Ben would push himself into social situations without any understanding of subtle dynamic. ‘I’m happy! Why aren’t you?’ Certainly he would have raised rabbits and grown alfalfa.
Hideously unable to understand ‘people’, Rick would design his school’s website. Because we all had respect for the bumlicky geek.
Hideously unable to understand ‘people’, Ben would, in his own words, become a ‘bird-flippin farmboy’. Yum. A pigshit stinking fat ****.
But we cannot fight our true nature, and both have chosen to spend the majority of their lives alone. Rick, of course, has his white power web design company, while Ben works for imperialist celebrator the National Library.
For Rick, everything is a fight against logic – he writes from the heart. Held back for too long by fact (you are too small, you have four eyes, you smell slightly of methane), he runs fast and loose. Who cares about fact when there is emotion? When what his gut tells him feels so right?
For Ben, everything is a fight for logic – he writes from the head. Held back for too long by emotional response (you are too close, ewww, there’s something fucking wrong with farmboy, dude, he cares the shit outta me), he runs dry. How can you argue with me? Everything I say can be cross referenced with other people who agree!
Two sides, people. One poster.
lol
Get away from me Mother! You're caring me.
Also, this thread is gaymo.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Shame nobody else thinks the initial post was worth bothering with, I think. These two are among the strongest voices on the board and their emnity has been going for three years of this community in one form or another. I found it interesting to try to give Rick a proper reply, not just brush off the whole concept.
O come on you prat. Ben clearly wrote the intial post. Must we all kowtow all the time?
Are you so sure all of the comments will be be pro-ben that he doesn't need to defend himself?
.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Are you seriously saying Ben wrote the first post. I am easily confused.
Yes. They've swapped passwords. We've gone from photos of prick to posting as rick.
Chekkit:
quote:
And "Dariussy"? Come the fuck on.
That's Rick speaking? Come the fuck on.
quote:
Needless to say I relented, roped in by his fawning, faux humility.
Etched in pig hide by the boar feller. Who went away for a week on Friday, then appeared 'drunk' over the weekend to write the post he quotes in full here. With no spelling mistakes.
Yeah Ben. You've really fucked off Miss Marple now.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Come off it, it is the same thing - a discussion (as your's quickily became) of whether or not you like someone. I wouldn't like it to happen to me, and neither did you.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. Although I felt this was destined to be more two-sided, as it's clearly really about whether or not you like Rick more or less than Ben, and why.
I also felt that Ben would probably read the opening post with great relish, but still I take your point.
I don't know if this "Rick = Ben" theory is serious, but how exactly are you suggesting Ben got Rick's password?
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: Vogon Poetess ]
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Comeback Elvis:
Yes. They've swapped passwords.
If they've "swapped", where are the examples of Rick posting as Ben? All you're suggesting is
- Ben disappears
- Ben posts up "drunk" Norton fantasy
- Ben posts as Rick today.
Where's Rick in all this? You can't be claiming that Rick wrote Ben's "drunk" sequence.
I don't personally believe Rick would hand over his login details to Ben, but to be honest I don't know if you're having some playful double-bluff and trying to screw people along with this bodyswap theory.
The more I think about this, the more I anger. Does this place need coralling? Are we all so weak as voices that Ben can just walk over us, push buttons and get a reply.
He clearly thinks so.
quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
fuck, doesn't rick spell it SamuelNorton with a capital N?
I'm not surprised you nixed this theory, because he's still got the same tag and postcount.
Damn you Ben. Damn you for knowing the only person who knows wouldn't be taken seriously!
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
You do realise that 69CE is laughing at all this don't you?
I don't, no. I lack the power to pierce men's minds and discern their intentions. However, I have the satisfaction that if 69CE isn't laughing at all this, your mistake will be preserved in my quotation.
No, I don't know who is messing around. After a while it gets a bit difficult to tell. I still find it entertaining so far.
Elvis is toying with us, like a kitten with a crippled robin.
I would like it if it was ben though; top comedy effect and no nasty rick aftertaste.
But boy does he find your asses funny.
Wake up people! SOYLENT GREEN!
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: London ]
quote:
Originally posted by benuel elsewhere:
Soup doesn't have to be shop's own liquidised sicky veggies, Louche. Have you ever tried soup de poisson, which you can buy in large jars in France?Delectable. Perfect with warm French bread and a glass of chilled white wine.
White wine? France? Not eiswein? Not a Bavarian bolthole?
I don't want to be Donald Sutherland. But damn you Ben. I. Will. Fight.
1...
3...
8...
Okay. It was an empty threat.
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: 69 Comeback Elvis ]
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Comeback Elvis:
10...Okay. It was an empty threat.
[swiping hand across forehead]phew.[/swiping hand across forehead]
Maybe, is something gonna happen?
I've been reading your world. Blame Imma Am Not: Code Name the Sphinx (It is the summer of colons after all) for that. He crept up behind me on messenger and beat me over the head with a link. I awoke to a brilliant drama featuring Teddy bears, blood and cymbals. The cymbals were the best bit.
So, I couldn't resist a little lurk around and I just wanted to say how much I'm looking forward to watching IAN bring Elvis back from the dead. Which is what he says he'll do next.
Thatisall.
Except: love goes out to Herbs the heartbreaker.
EDIT: Sorry, IAN was supposed to magic me from the dead first. I'm such an unlovely assistant.
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
It's a round. To be sung to the tune of I'd like to Teach the World to Sing. Cos it's a hateful song that needs to be minced up and fucked with.
I'd like to weave some threads for Shine
And dress them up in love,
A gown of rhymes all intertwined with sly digs like above.
I like to see Shine come and go
And post infrequently
With sing-alongs and comic songs and sweet, neat UBB.
I'd like to sing along with it
Like this - ludicrously.
A brace of cocks a pairs of tits, Shine, baby, you and me. (That Shine is me)
I'd like to build the world a Shine (the Shine who posts today)
Who posts infrequently
(SIMULTANEOUSLY)
I'd like to build a thread for Shine
Who posts infrequently
I'd like to build a nest of rhymes
Live in it like a bird
With rhymes like these - all Siamese - two headers that are turd.
I'd also like to know who Shine is, please. If it isn't Fish and it isn't new.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: jonesy999 ]
quote:
Originally posted by jonesy999:
Hello TMO.I've been reading your world. Blame Imma Am Not: Code Name the Sphinx (It is the summer of colons after all) for that. He crept up behind me on messenger and beat me over the head with a link. I awoke to a brilliant drama featuring Teddy bears, blood and cymbals. The cymbals were the best bit.
So, I couldn't resist a little lurk around and I just wanted to say how much I'm looking forward to watching IAN bring Elvis back from the dead. Which is what he says he'll do next.
Thatisall.
Except: love goes out to Herbs the heartbreaker.
EDIT: Sorry, IAN was supposed to magic me from the dead first. I'm such an unlovely assistant.
whoops pressed quote by accident.
quote:
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: jonesy999 ][/QB]
you just couldn't help yourself could you m12.
Me: Wha? Whuh? Get the fuck off, who the…?
Alanis Morissette: Die! Die!
Me: Help! Mad German. What are you doing?
Alanis Morissette: Killing you. It’s ironic.
Me: Why?
Alanis Morissette: You said you would kill yourself if Ben didn’t post.
Me: That was online. Not me here now. I have a wife and child and you have a pop career. This won’t do either of us any favours.
Alanis Morissette: Ooo I have a wife and child! I have a wife and child! You’re pathetic.
Then she stabbed me in the neck and I bled to death. Top of Corn Street, just outside Mange Tout. It’ll be in the papers I expect. I bled a lot, which was surprising, and fingered ‘it was ben… www.themoononl...’ in blood before I carked it.
Turns out Voodun is the truth and Baron Samedi is quite the modern man. He has instigated a paperless office with full wireless networking. Most of the spirits work from home, but I’ll need to work up to that – being the new boy and all. I start with Ogou Balanjo this afternoon, in healing. Hope he’s nice!
Hi IAN. Hi Jonesy. Make sure you daub your chests with the blood of twelve doves before Christmas!
quote:
Originally posted by Bailey:
cough-snort
Is this like a cough-sweet but harder to store and not as tasty?
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Comeback Elvis:
Fuck me. It's Gordon...
OK, your place or mine?
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
We shouldn't have to put up with this.
Don't worry, I'm only here because http://www.dvdrhelp.com is broken at the mo.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
I think the big difference, Rick, is that people get the strong impression that Ben doesn't mean it -- that he is being provocative and trying to shock -- whereas you do -- that all your less acceptable statements are merely toned-down versions of what you truly believe.
Oh come on. Do you really believe that I think that Gail has rats in her vagina? And do you really believe Ben was just trying to "shock" with the Daveystoat comments - which, incidentally, you failed to mention?
quote:
...he [Ben] will either argue that he was trying to gee-up the forum and put a spark into things -- with a feeling of responsiblity and investment that I believe is absolutely genuine on his part, however unpleasant some may find his darker trolling
You are suggesting that Ben writes "to shock" and that I write "toned-down versions of what I believe". Fair enough. But then a few lines later you suggest that Ben is "absolutely genuine". A strange contradiction, unless he is an absolutely genuine spoofster.
quote:
or he'll back into a mode you didn't mention, the Wounded Stag.
I was going to mention this; I was going to cite his asking the forum for sympathy when he had a bad throat, a request I found slightly cringeworthy.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Oh come on. Do you really believe that I think that Gail has rats in her vagina? And do you really believe Ben was just trying to "shock" with the Daveystoat comments - which, incidentally, you failed to mention?
You failed to mention that he did get pilloried for those comments. This incident just didn't fit your argument.
quote:You are suggesting that Ben writes "to shock" and that I write "toned-down versions of what I believe". Fair enough. But then a few lines later you suggest that Ben is "absolutely genuine". A strange contradiction,
Not really.
1. He writes occasional provocative comments "to shock", ie. he doesn't genuinely mean them.
2. His underlying motive of keeping the forum motivated and vibrant, whether you agree with his vision and methods or not, is genuine in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
You failed to mention that he did get pilloried for those comments.
Pilloried. Yeah, OK. But this is not quite the same as being crucified, hung, drawn and quartered.
quote:
1. He writes occasional provocative comments "to shock", ie. he doesn't genuinely mean them.
I think you are giving him far too much credit, mon vieux.
quote:
2. His underlying motive of keeping the forum motivated and vibrant, whether you agree with his vision and methods or not, is genuine in my opinion.
It's odd but I sometimes do the same for similar reasons. Take my troll-mode over the weekend, for example. It began as a reaction to something Ben said, but it became a way of breathing life into a thread that might well have just faded away. Even this thread, as you yourself have acknowledged, has provided the forum with "bite".
Perhaps it's just that the distiction between "belief" and "shock" for
me is slightly different, in that many consider some of my beliefs "shocking". Of course, this is magnified by the fact that TMO is a liberal-leaning board; I've found that in everyday polite conversation, much of what I say hardly registers a look of suprise, let alone the righteous indignation displayed by Ben. Maybe I have hung around with fellow-travellers for far too long.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Maybe I have hung around with fellow-travellers for far too long.
You're gay!?
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
You're gay!?
Of course not! Those guys were sorted out back in June 1934.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Those guys were sorted out back in June 1934.
This is funny in a special way.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Rick, yesterday:
Not those sort of travellers, fule!!! 
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:Perhaps it's just that the distiction between "belief" and "shock" for
me is slightly different, in that many consider some of my beliefs "shocking". Of course, this is magnified by the fact that TMO is a liberal-leaning board; I've found that in everyday polite conversation, much of what I say hardly registers a look of suprise, let alone the righteous indignation displayed by Ben. Maybe I have hung around with fellow-travellers for far too long.
Is it "liberal-leaning" these days to think that overt racism isn't really acceptable, and that millions of Jews probably did die in the Holocaust? Aren't they such widely-held beliefs that they can be found at all but the most extreme right-wing?
I honestly can't imagine what polite society you do hang around in where drinking toasts to Hitler doesn't raise an eyebrow.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Is it "liberal-leaning" these days to think that overt racism isn't really acceptable, and that millions of Jews probably did die in the Holocaust? Aren't they such widely-held beliefs that they can be found at all but the most extreme right-wing?
A question, Ko: can you tell when I am writing as myself, and when I am playing with the "Nazi" persona?
I don't think I have ever, when writing seriously, voiced overt racism of any sort, and I actually think that you have said as much when we discussed this sort of thing before.
Suggesting that Albanian asylum seekers should be deported isn't racist. Nor is making the observation that mugging is a predominantly black activity. Nor, for that matter, is questioning aspects of the Holocaust story. However, some may disagree, and argue to that effect.
Ben however does more than this: I feel he is programmed in some way to counter every single point I make to its maximum extent, and not give an inch of ground in any circumstance. A case in point was the Nazi doctors debate, where he ended up looking slightly ridiculous by his inability to concede what was essentially a reasonable point. This is clearly different to merely voicing natural liberal objections, as you appear to suggest.
quote:
I honestly can't imagine what polite society you do hang around in where drinking toasts to Hitler doesn't raise an eyebrow.
Just reading this provides me with an answer to the question I asked you at the top of this post. The fact is that you can read me on this medium as well I can read Ben - which is not very well.
In my polite society we discuss modern political issues without malice. We usually try and see through the liberal veneer that shapes our society, and I feel that such an approach is a healthy one. And - we usually toast with a regulation "chin-chin".
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
A question, Ko: can you tell when I am writing as myself, and when I am playing with the "Nazi" persona?
I believe your "Nazi" persona is only an exaggerated version of your genuine beliefs. I also believe, in fact -- as I suggested above -- that you play up these beliefs into a more stylised form in order that you can state them and then claim you were only messing around.
I don't mean this to sound like an attack on you. You know that I generally retain a respect for you on here because of certain traits I admire, and somehow manage to take the traits that I don't agree with on board without it eroding the respect. However, I do think you enjoy coming out with bigoted statements because they're not far off what you truly believe, and that you use the exaggeration as a means of escaping the criticism you know those comments will attract.
quote:
I don't think I have ever, when writing seriously, voiced overt racism of any sort, and I actually think that you have said as much when we discussed this sort of thing before.
I've said that I think you have a disgust for what you see as "black youth" culture that is -- I don't feel it can be avoided -- a form of racism. I don't think you'd feel the same if white youths practiced an identical culture.
I do also sense that your distaste for Jewish people isn't just down to political dislike of "Zionist conspiracy", but something to do with their actual ethnicity.
Sometimes I feel I'm the only member of this board who doesn't dislike you, and I'm not saying this out of dislike, but those are my honest answers.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
I believe your "Nazi" persona is only an exaggerated version of your genuine beliefs. I also believe, in fact -- as I suggested above -- that you play up these beliefs into a more stylised form in order that you can state them and then claim you were only messing around.
I can see why you see this to be the case, for reasons outlined before. However, I'd have thought, having spoken with me in a civilised fashion, that you of all people would have been able to differentiate between what is a statement of belief - I think hip-hop culture encourages criminal behaviour - and a stylised "Nazi" statement - I think all negroes have a genetic predisposition to commit crime.
Admittedly, the lines are blurred, which would not be the case if I had retained my serious beliefs yet adopted a "loony lefty" persona for shock value.
quote:
I don't mean this to sound like an attack on you. You know that I generally retain a respect for you on here because of certain traits I admire, and somehow manage to take the traits that I don't agree with on board without it eroding the respect.
I am not seeing it as an attack, though I am disappointed that you can't see the difference between what might be part of a serious debate and the sort of trollish shock tactics that I employed last weekend.
quote:
However, I do think you enjoy coming out with bigoted statements because they're not far off what you truly believe, and that you use the exaggeration as a means of escaping the criticism you know those comments will attract.
I have never tried to escape criticism on here; instead, I think the opposite has been the case by my willingness to take this criticism head on and end up involved in turgid repetitive debate as a result.
quote:
I've said that I think you have a disgust for what you see as "black youth" culture that is -- I don't feel it can be avoided -- a form of racism. I don't think you'd feel the same if white youths practiced an identical culture.
So you really think I'd just wave and say hello if I saw some white guy with his trousers round his ankles and a tea-cosy for a hat loitering outside a tube station? Get real.
The majority of Burberry-wearing, sick-stained oiks who populate the streets of Ibiza and Faliraki are white. And unless you are deliberately ignoring the fact, I have spoken about these people in equally disparaging terms as I have done when discussing the dedicated followers of black fashion and urban "culture".
Of course, my views on the Faliraki fuckwits - and pikeys for that matter also, the majority of who are also white - cannot be conveniently described as "racism", leading in these instances to my being described as a "pompous arse", or something equally ridiculous.
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:I can see why you see this to be the case, for reasons outlined before. However, I'd have thought, having spoken with me in a civilised fashion, that you of all people would have been able to differentiate between what is a statement of belief - I think hip-hop culture encourages criminal behaviour - and a stylised "Nazi" statement - I think all negroes have a genetic predisposition to commit crime.
Yes, of course. I never said I couldn't distinguish between comments like that, and I naturally saw your latter remark as self-mocking and provocative.
quote:
I am not seeing it as an attack, though I am disappointed that you can't see the difference between what might be part of a serious debate and the sort of trollish shock tactics that I employed last weekend.
I can, as I said. But you admitted the lines were blurred, which is what I have been getting at. Your more "moderate" comment about hip-hop culture and your more "extreme" comment lie, I think, at either end of what I suspect are your genuine beliefs, that it's not just racially-neutral "hip-hop" culture, based around a form of music, but young black culture, that you dislike. I don't think you'd really entertain that thought about "negroes" above but equally I think your focus is really on black young people whom you associate with that kind of music.
I can't back this up but after having read your posts on here over 3 years, it's the impression I get.
quote:So you really think I'd just wave and say hello if I saw some white guy with his trousers round his ankles and a tea-cosy for a hat loitering outside a tube station? Get real.
The majority of Burberry-wearing, sick-stained oiks who populate the streets of Ibiza and Faliraki are white. And unless you are deliberately ignoring the fact, I have spoken about these people in equally disparaging terms as I have done when discussing the dedicated followers of black fashion and urban "culture".
That's true, I should perhaps have added that young black people are far from the only social group you dislike. To be fair, your targets are not just defined by race by any means.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Yes, of course. I never said I couldn't distinguish between comments like that, and I naturally saw your latter remark as self-mocking and provocative.
OK, but you did throw in the "toast to Hitler" reference, something which you no doubt noticed in my "Hitler Wine" thread in the Web forum. I got the impression that you took what was a fictional scenario to be a real-life vision of me and my brown-shirted cohorts discussing the state of the nation while our womenfolk discussed cookery and babies.
quote:
Your more "moderate" comment about hip-hop culture and your more "extreme" comment lie, I think, at either end of what I suspect are your genuine beliefs, that it's not just racially-neutral "hip-hop" culture, based around a form of music, but young black culture, that you dislike.
But is hip-hop culture "racially neutral"? I would disagree, and suggest that this and what most people see as black youth or "urban" culture are one and the same.
quote:
I don't think you'd really entertain that thought about "negroes" above but equally I think your focus is really on black young people whom you associate with that kind of music.
You appear to have overlooked the glaring fact that hip-hop music is black. Therefore, it follows that if one is critical of hip-hop urban culture, one would for the most part be critical of black youth culture and those who follow it, who would for the most part be black.
Of course, this doesn't mean that others who follow these trends are exempt from criticism; I would have the same reservations about some white or Asian youth trying to act "black" by hanging outside a local tube or bus station wearing ridiculous clothes.
quote:
That's true, I should perhaps have added that young black people are far from the only social group you dislike. To be fair, your targets are not just defined by race by any means.
Balanced as ever. One can only wonder how the subject of this thread would have responded if placed in your position.
[ 05 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
OK, but you did throw in the "toast to Hitler" reference, something which you no doubt noticed in my "Hitler Wine" thread in the Web forum. I got the impression that you took what was a fictional scenario to be a real-life vision of me and my brown-shirted cohorts discussing the state of the nation while our womenfolk discussed cookery and babies.
Not exactly, but I wouldn't swear that toasting Hitler's birthday (if that's what the date was) is beyond you. I can imagine you doing it as a sort of provocative, "daring" routine with some friends who you know wouldn't be outraged. Again, I think you're hiding the possible truth behind an exaggerated picture. "I'll be saluting my statue of the Fuehrer and growing a toothbrush moustache specially." By setting up a ludicrous scenario you make it seem as though you're joking, when I suggest you're not entirely joking. After all, you do spend time and effort celebrating Nazi tank commanders. Wouldn't you raise a glass to one of your military heroes on his birthday, then?
quote:
But is hip-hop culture "racially neutral"? I would disagree, and suggest that this and what most people see as black youth or "urban" culture are one and the same.
In that case, you're being disingenuous by phrasing it I think hip-hop culture encourages criminal behaviour. You were really saying "I think black youth culture encourages criminal behaviour."
To be fair, this isn't actually an outlandish statement, with the qualifier "I think". Except for the fact that, I would suggest, there is more to "black youth culture" than the sort of behaviour you're describing. I'd even say there was more to "hip-hop culture" than that behaviour.
I think I know what sort of youth you mean -- I'm not at all fond of the kind of young men and women who seem to just loiter or swagger around with the intention of, in one way or another, intimidating other people: whether through actual violence, verbal abuse or just contemptuous teeth-sucking and deliberately taking up more room than they need on seats and pavements. If this is the culture you're talking about, I'm by no means a fan of it.
I don't know how accurate it is to define it as "black" or "hip-hop" though.
quote:
One can only wonder how the subject of this thread would have responded if placed in your position.
You mean...if Ben was responding to a thread about me that I hadn't posted on.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Not exactly, but I wouldn't swear that toasting Hitler's birthday (if that's what the date was) is beyond you. I can imagine you doing it as a sort of provocative, "daring" routine with some friends who you know wouldn't be outraged.
Yes, that's what the date is. You can imagine, eh? lol.
quote:
By setting up a ludicrous scenario you make it seem as though you're joking, when I suggest you're not entirely joking. After all, you do spend time and effort celebrating Nazi tank commanders. Wouldn't you raise a glass to one of your military heroes on his birthday, then?
There's a difference between raising a glass to Hitler and doing the same to a soldier. I'd also take this opportunity to correct your reference to "Nazi tank commanders". This is inaccurate, as the man in question was not a member of the National Socialist Party nor was he in any way political. He was, however, the most successful tank commander of all time.
I would raise a glass to one of these military heroes, yes. And there's no shame in doing that.
quote:
...you're being disingenuous by phrasing it I think hip-hop culture encourages criminal behaviour. You were really saying "I think black youth culture encourages criminal behaviour."
To prevent any claims that I am being disingenuous, I will make it clear that I see these concepts as one and the same, and that I believe that they promote a lifestyle than glorifies urban "cred", which has a heavy focus on street violence and criminal behaviour. Maybe I am constricting my argument by using the term "hip-hop" - there are of course other genres within the rubric of "black youth culture".
quote:
Except for the fact that, I would suggest, there is more to "black youth culture" than the sort of behaviour you're describing. I'd even say there was more to "hip-hop culture" than that behaviour.
Of course there are going to be other aspects to these lifestyles. But there are some aspects that are far more visible than these others. I'd actually be interested in hearing what you have to say on this; maybe your next book could be on black youth culture. It would certainly be a change from Alice.
quote:
I think I know what sort of youth you mean -- I'm not at all fond of the kind of young men and women who seem to just loiter or swagger around with the intention of, in one way or another, intimidating other people: whether through actual violence, verbal abuse or just contemptuous teeth-sucking and deliberately taking up more room than they need on seats and pavements. If this is the culture you're talking about, I'm by no means a fan of it.
You know this the "culture" I am talking about.
quote:
I don't know how accurate it is to define it as "black" or "hip-hop" though.
That's why I am hoping you can tell me more, and furnish us with tales of your experiences with black urban youth.
quote:
You mean...if Ben was responding to a thread about me that I hadn't posted on.
lol. Smartarse.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
trousers round his ankles and a tea-cosy for a hat loitering outside a tube station?
Tsk. Typical Black behaviour.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
hanging outside a local tube or bus station wearing ridiculous clothes.
Tsk. Typical Black culture.
Or were you 'playing with your Nazi identity' when you let these two clangers drop?
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Or were you 'playing with your Nazi identity' when you let these two clangers drop?
Have you even been to Harrow Bus Station at night, Black Mask?
That said, out of those that gather there, I don't know what's worse: the garage crew that malinger in a menacing fashion, the grinning Somali gangs or the boneheads that roll out of the Rat and Parrot...
Rick says "I'd round them all up and let them chill in a cell". Naziboy says "I'd bloody well shoot them all".
Which one is true? You decide.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
That said, out of those that gather there, I don't know what's worse: the garage crew that malinger in a menacing fashion, the grinning Somali gangs or the boneheads that roll out of the Rat and Parrot...
1. do you mean garage as in the type of music? If so, what makes this group belong to that music?
2. if the Somalians are smiling, what are they doing wrong?
3. Spending an evening in a local chain pub is hardly hip hop.
quote:
Of course there are going to be other aspects to these lifestyles. But there are some aspects that are far more visible than these others. I'd actually be interested in hearing what you have to say on this;
Well, I wouldn't say I know much about young black people, really. I meet a fair few at university but they aren't Londoners or even British for the most part -- most of them are African and so have a very different culture, manner, accent and approach to life from the young black people who grew up, for the most part, in London.
Otherwise I just engage with people of this group
i) in local shops, to a superficial extent
ii) at TAE BO, which is mostly black, but doesn't involve a lot of social mixing
iii) in the kind of sometimes-hostile street encounter I touched on above.
So I'm very much an "other" to London black culture, I think. I've said before that I think communities keep separate in my area.
However, I do get a very strong impression that there's a lot of Christianity in the black community around my way and in other parts of South London, and I'd be surprised if this didn't involve young people, male and female, as well as pious middle-aged aunties.
To be fair, the well-behaved black teenagers, who maybe balance schoolwork with PS2, music in their rooms and going round each other's houses, aren't likely to be visble to me, while the antisocial ones are exactly the ones, by their nature, who are going to be glowering at me from under their hoodies from outside the Costcutter.
Same is true of any ethnic group and its teens. I'm not going to see the nicer kids after dark, cause they will be watching TV or doing homework.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Which one is true? You decide.
Maybe you can't decide, Rick. You just claimed that you never write anything overtly racist on the boards, yet your snide, derisory remarks about Black people are like a trail of little pellets of dessicated white dog shit. You do it constantly, maybe unconsciously. You consistently refer to eye-rolling, tea-cosy-wearing, tooth-sucking, knife-wielding, baggy-trousered, predatory Black men. A long-distance peek at Harrow bus-station seems to be about as far as you want to venture into the reality of 'Black culture', and you're supposed to be bent on 'the truth'.
You're a clown.
And a coward.
quote:
Originally posted by Modge:
3. Spending an evening in a local chain pub is hardly hip hop.
I think Rick meant here that the "white" boneheads were no better than the "non-white" thugs. Your image of beaming Somali guys sauntering happily around a bus station was lol.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Sometimes I feel I'm the only member of this board who doesn't dislike you, and I'm not saying this out of dislike, but those are my honest answers.
I like Rick. He's a nazi fuck, and we've had spats, but I think he's a positive contributor.
And Rick.
quote:
Originally posted by Modge:
1. do you mean garage as in the type of music? If so, what makes this group belong to that music?
They look like So Solid Crew. Which are a garage gang, sorry, - band - yes? And I very much doubt Kovacs would be comfortable if he thought you might be having to wait for a bus on a Saturday night.
quote:
2. if the Somalians are smiling, what are they doing wrong?
Somali gangs have a vicious reputation in the area, often fighting with passers-by but mainly with other black gangs (like the garage gang). The fact that many of them have fixed smiles is therefore unfortunate. Liberian rebel leaders also smile a lot, as did Idi Amin. Your point?
quote:
3. Spending an evening in a local chain pub is hardly hip hop.
lol. No, more chip shop. I simply chucked them into the mix so I could provide BM with a flavour of Harrow Bus Station at night.
Not nice.
To Rick: I work in Harrow, and I was a little surprised by your description as I have never witnessed anything like what you describe. Admittedly I am not there late at night, but still. My perception of the area is that it has a high proportion of Hindu and Carribbean families, and actually seemed like an area with strong religious influence. Not that this precludes gangs of youths, but to be honest I think you'd find those anywhere in the country. I think it is perhaps more as Kovacs suggested above, that youth culture is often defined by those youths seen hanging around on the streets in the evenings (which was considered a problem in my village in Fife where there are only white Scottish folks) than by those teens who spend their time elsewhere.
I'm sorry I was flippant about the Somalians, it just made me giggle when I read it.
Just as an aside I was at a bus stop in South East London recently and was waiting alongside an older woman who I took to be Jamaican. Two black teenage boys (looking like So Solid members) came along and were "messing around" as they waited - pushing each other, taking the piss out of each other as teenage boys are wont to do. After a few minutes the woman turned to the boys and said "will you two just stop it, and wait in peace". The two boys apologised and stood quietly until the bus came. Now I highly doubt that if those boys had been white they would have responded in that way. Sadly, I think they would have been more likely to retaliate and be agressive towards the woman. I was surprised by the way these two boys did behave, but I believe it displays perhaps a cultural respect for elders that is more prominent in Carribbean cultures. I'm not attempting to generalise, just telling a wee story.
Edited to add: I dislike my actions being placed in the light of my boyfriend's feelings. Whilst I understand that he may feel protective of me, my main concern when I'm travelling alone at night is my personal safety as it is important to me, not to what Kovacs might be thinking. You may not have meant it this way, but I felt it a little patronising.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: Modge ]
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Why does nobody black ever post on TMO?
Interesting question.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
You consistently refer to eye-rolling, tea-cosy-wearing, tooth-sucking, knife-wielding, baggy-trousered, predatory Black men
I only referred to the baggy trousers and tea cosies, old fruit. However, Kovacs did refer to
quote:
...young men and women who seem to just loiter or swagger around with the intention of, in one way or another, intimidating other people: whether through actual violence, verbal abuse or just contemptuous teeth-sucking and deliberately taking up more room than they need on seats and pavements
I could see how you could get us both mixed up.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
They look like So Solid Crew. Which are a garage gang, sorry, - band - yes? And I very much doubt Kovacs would be comfortable if he thought you might be having to wait for a bus on a Saturday night.
Fair enough, I do think Modge feels a little complacent about being out at night; that's just my paranoid point of view.
How many times am I going to say "to be fair" or "fair enough" on this thread.
That's not really a point about black culture though. If you'd said that rough-looking white lads hang out at this bus station, I'd be at least as unhappy with her hypothetically waiting about at midnight.
quote:
Somali gangs have a vicious reputation in the area, often fighting with passers-by but mainly with other black gangs (like the garage gang). The fact that many of them have fixed smiles is therefore unfortunate. Liberian rebel leaders also smile a lot, as did Idi Amin. Your point?
Bogus. I believe you're now saying they have "fixed smiles" from knife wounding. If this was your original point, you know very well it wasn't made clear by your description of them "grinning". You are twisting and, I won't say squirming, but evading, a fair bit in this Bus Station theory.
quote:
However, Kovacs did refer to
Bad form to make out I was the source of the black stereotypes BM is picking up on. After that passage you quote, I said I didn't know if it was accurate to refer to this social group as representing "black culture". True, the teeth-sucking is something that seems to some uniquely from (some form of) black convention, but I did question whether the style of aggressive youth behaviour I was talking about can be regarded as exclusively black.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: kovacs ]
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
And Rick.
Are you insinuating that I'm a negro?
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- to force home the point that I'm joking...
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
I only referred to the baggy trousers and tea cosies
Tonight, maybe. This sort of coy denial is exactly what I mean. Everytime you comment on black people at any length you can't help but make derisory or denigrating remarks. You do it all the time. You don't realise because you are a racist.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
FI believe you're now saying they have "fixed smiles" from knife wounding. If this was your original point, you know very well it wasn't made clear by your description of them "grinning".
No, no, no old fellow. Many of them have this fixed grin. Tis true! And some have large rabbitty teeth, to boot. I don't know if these grins are attributed to knife wounding, as I don't particularly wish to get close enough to look.
Maybe the both of you should join Nightowl and I for a drink in Harrow; after the usual routine of dinner and drinks, we could leave the girls at home with a movie, while both of us could engage in a bit of anthropological observation and study. You'll need a pair of binoculars, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Tonight, maybe. This sort of coy denial is exactly what I mean. Everytime you comment on black people at any length you can't help but make derisory or denigrating remarks. You do it all the time. You don't realise because you are a racist.
To be fair BM, whenever I use such terms, it is usually when discussing black youth culture. I very much doubt I'd refer to teeth-sucking, tea cosies and Audi TTs if I was talking about a diplomat from Ghana.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
we could leave the girls at home with a movie,
Either I didnt edit my other post quickly enough, or you are deliberately trying to rile me.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
No, no, no old fellow. Many of them have this fixed grin. Tis true! And some have large rabbitty teeth, to boot. I don't know if these grins are attributed to knife wounding,
Sorry, you lost me on one of your twists. I misread what you were, indeed, coyly implying.
quote:Maybe the both of you should join Nightowl and I for a drink in Harrow; after the usual routine of dinner and drinks, we could leave the girls at home with a movie, while both of us could engage in a bit of anthropological observation and study. You'll need a pair of binoculars, though.
Dude...that's kind of sick. Next you'll be suggesting getting out an air rifle with telescopic sight.
Serious question
1. Is it more honourable to be a racist and admit it than to harbour racist views but avoid confessing to them?
2. If someone said outright on here, "yes I am a racist", would that be, or become accepted at all? Would the candour even be respected?
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
2. If someone said outright on here, "yes I am a racist", would that be, or become accepted at all? Would the candour even be respected?
In a literal sense I am racist, in that I make judgements that are influenced by someone's race. However, I do not believe that I am racist in the sense that I hold generalised negative opinions about an ethnic group simply because of their race. I feel that this is an important distinction, and I would be surprised if anyone could hand on heart say that they "do not see colour".
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
if I was talking about a diplomat from Ghana.
No, you'd probably mention corruption, cannibalism and his despicable Communist roots. And then, when someone called you on that shit you'd come away with something like, "Oh, mon ami, was I pulling your leg perhaps? Can't you take a joke, old fruit? Hmm? lol 
"
And how is denigrating Black youth preferable, or even different, to denigrating Blacks in general?
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Would the candour even be respected?
Yeah, I might respect the candour. For a few seconds.
I can't say I feel any negative prejudice about, say, middle-aged black women, young Chinese boys, middle-class black men, or Asian men in their 30s. What I do feel is a sense that they're not of my culture, and that I'm not of theirs, and that we're communicating (if we do) across some degree of boundary or divide. Of course, this gap may be easily-bridged, but still I'm aware whenever I meet or even see someone of a different ethnic group that their experience of life (whether religion, music, food, family, school) is likely to have been and remain at least slightly different to mine because of reasons to do with skin colour.
So more than a negative resentment or dislike, I am more likely to feel a certain level of alienation, of me being different to them and vice versa.
On a positive personal note, I have really noticed that since attending this predominantly black gym for the last couple of months, and (strange to say) spending more time in a room with 30 black people than I probably ever have in my life, I feel a lot more "sameness" towards black folks in my area now. It sounds naive but having seen them chatting, sweating, having a laugh is more contact than I've had with a black community than I can ever remember. I don't feel part of it but it's certainly friendly and unthreatening -- even the big black shave-headed boxers are clearly not "out to get me" in the slightest.
As I say, sounds naive. But you know, I clearly had some ground to cover.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
1. Is it more honourable to be a racist and admit it than to harbour racist views but avoid confessing to them?2. If someone said outright on here, "yes I am a racist", would that be, or become accepted at all? Would the candour even be respected?
I'm just jumping in for a second to make a comment on the above....
I don't remember who I was speaking to at the meat about this, but these questions are at the heart of why I think Britian is much more racist than the States...
Back home, for the most part, if someone is a racist, they let you know and aren't 'ashamed' of it... Which made it easy for someone like me to stay away from... Cuz racists are shit, innit.
But, here... I find that the racism is MUCH more subtle and almost institutionalised (sp?). Here, someone will go into a offlicense and be your typical British gent, but will walk away wishing he didn't have to buy his White Lightning and Sovereigns from a Pakki. ALMOST every offlicense/postoffice/petrol station I have ever been in since I hit these shores are being manned by blacks or indians... I can probably count the white employees of these businesses on one hand (not including upper management ofcourse) but no one seems to bring it into question.
When I was taking a computer course to get a certification, it was filled with whites, whilst the 'Life Studies' and 'IT aptitude' classes were prodomenitly black... Some could pass this off that blacks are statistically less well off than whites and couldn't afford a computer so shouldn't be in the course I was in... I'd then ask why there were 2 white males in my class that couldn't figure out how to install a hard drive in a computer despite the 6 months they had to learn.
My instructor, who was black and his partner who was pakistani <sp?>, let me teach some of his classes and because I knew what the course was, but had to sit there for the paper. Because of this 'responsibility', both the instructor, his partner and I became friends of a sort and started to talk. These two people, who could argue are disadvantaged because of their race, would actively discourage minorities from taking the 'upper' type classes instead offering them the 'Learn to Type' stuff. Even to a black man that took 30 years to become head of his department of 5 people, he encouraged this institutional racism...
When I worked at that Ambulance chasing company, I spoke to some bloke about his wife's fall... During the description of what happened, he described that she fell outside a 'pakki shop' cuz the 'pakki never cleans properly' and when his wife fell, 'a darkie came over and helped her to her feet... We checked afterward, and her purse was still in the handbag'. Now, this is something I'd expect someone like Brandenburg, not some little old man who had received the help off some stranger when his wife had shattered her hip. Let alone telling this shit over a phone to a complete stranger as if we were discussing the horses in the 5th race...
Ahhhhhhh........ Fuck it, I ramble and lost the point... Basically, I think that Rick and some others don't realise they are racist because, as a whole, Britain accepts racism to an extent... Just look at the BNP... Not many 'civilized' countries have an OPENLY extreme right party, let alone have them in seats of power...
Sorry, carry on....
*slinks off*
quote:
Originally posted by Modge:
I work in Harrow, and I was a little surprised by your description as I have never witnessed anything like what you describe. Admittedly I am not there late at night, but still.
You'd be surprised at the transformation that takes place around the Bus Station and Harrow on the Hill tube. If you read the local rags you will no doubt becoming familiar with what goes on at night, particularly at the weekend. I'm glad you're not there at night, I wouldn't recommend it.
quote:
My perception of the area is that it has a high proportion of Hindu and Carribbean families, and actually seemed like an area with strong religious influence. Not that this precludes gangs of youths, but to be honest I think you'd find those anywhere in the country.
Fair point.
quote:
Just as an aside I was at a bus stop in South East London recently and was waiting alongside an older woman who I took to be Jamaican. Two black teenage boys (looking like So Solid members) came along and were "messing around" as they waited - pushing each other, taking the piss out of each other as teenage boys are wont to do. After a few minutes the woman turned to the boys and said "will you two just stop it, and wait in peace". The two boys apologised and stood quietly until the bus came. Now I highly doubt that if those boys had been white they would have responded in that way. Sadly, I think they would have been more likely to retaliate and be agressive towards the woman. I was surprised by the way these two boys did behave, but I believe it displays perhaps a cultural respect for elders that is more prominent in Carribbean cultures. I'm not attempting to generalise, just telling a wee story.
Another aside: early this week (Monday) I made a rare journey on a bus the other while my car was being serviced, and had to physically shove half a dozen black kids out of the way in order to get through. They obviously couldn't compute "excuse me please", or the fact that there were plenty of free seats. No, they just had to be standing there in the bloody gangway.
And then coming back from the garage I was driving up a one-way street when two black youths on scooters were buzzing in my direction (contravening the one-way rule) while shouting across to a guy on the side of the road. My sixth sense suggested I slow down, which was lucky as one of the scooter guys almost smacked into me, swerving at the very last minute. Whether this act was deliberate I don't know. Before I could say anything, the obnoxious little fuck kissed his teeth and sped off. Not generalising at all, just reeling off a little story.
quote:
I'm sorry I was flippant about the Somalians, it just made me giggle when I read it.
No need to apologise... It makes me laugh too. When I am in the safety of my own home, of course. The Somali gangs are funny in the same way as those murderous Liberian rebel groups who kill, rape and mutilate while wearing nothing but women's wigs, Converse All Stars and Colgate smiles.
quote:
Edited to add: I dislike my actions being placed in the light of my boyfriend's feelings. Whilst I understand that he may feel protective of me, my main concern when I'm travelling alone at night is my personal safety as it is important to me, not to what Kovacs might be thinking. You may not have meant it this way, but I felt it a little patronising.
I didn't mean to be patronising, though I have a protective streak that would leave me in a state of panic if I thought that my girlfriend might be in a dangerous place. It's just old-fashioned chivalry laced with paranoia, that's all
quote:
I made a rare journey on a bus the other while my car was being serviced, and had to physically shove half a dozen black kids out of the way in order to get through.
Racial assault?
Or wet dream?
You decide. Goodnight!
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
Stuff of which we should all be ashamed and could learn a thing or two if we just took some time out to think, really think about it.
Sabian. Go to bed.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Another aside: early this week (Monday) I made a rare journey on a bus the other while my car was being serviced, and had to physically shove half a dozen black kids out of the way in order to get through. They obviously couldn't compute "excuse me please", or the fact that there were plenty of free seats. No, they just had to be standing there in the bloody gangway.And then coming back from the garage I was driving up a one-way street when two black youths on scooters were buzzing in my direction (contravening the one-way rule) while shouting across to a guy on the side of the road. My sixth sense suggested I slow down, which was lucky as one of the scooter guys almost smacked into me, swerving at the very last minute. Whether this act was deliberate I don't know. Before I could say anything, the obnoxious little fuck kissed his teeth and sped off. Not generalising at all, just reeling off a little story
You seem to have missed the point of my story. Which was that I felt the boys actions were influenced (positively) by their cultural background in a way that made their behaviour different that what I would expect of youths from most other cultures. Whilst I sympathise with your tales, there is nothing about the behaviour of those young men that suggests that it was influenced by their culture - I can all too easily imagine a group of white girls in Edinburgh acting in the same way, for instance. The behaviour is not to be applauded by any means, but it is not a comparable tale to my own.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
chivalry laced with paranoia
That's a pretty good definition of racism right there...
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Sabian. Go to bed.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
We just got called bigots by an American.
Sorry guys, I should have learned my lesson about wading into these threads... T'won't happen again...
I meant you were putting us to shame Sabian, not that you shouldn't comment.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: My Name Is Joe ]
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Yeah.. but Sabian, your point was actually good.
Fuck off, Lauren. You racist!
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Fuck off, Lauren. You racist!
Middle-aged white people wearing ridiculous clothes hanging around in a tube station.
Question: Are they 'acting black'?
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Now I feel bad.I meant you were putting us to shame Sabian, not that you shouldn't comment.
Typical.
Any American who calls the British on racism has got some fucking hide on them. That's my considered opinion, as someone who thinks Britain's a racist shithole.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Dude...that's kind of sick. Next you'll be suggesting getting out an air rifle with telescopic sight.
I know, sorry. It was mean of me to make the assumption that the girls might not be interested in joining us on this valuable expedition.
quote:
1. Is it more honourable to be a racist and admit it than to harbour racist views but avoid confessing to them?
Fundamentally yes. But what is a "racist", Kovacs? The term, and the similar yet different "racialist", is chucked around so much and by so many that no-one really can define the term in an actual sense. Which is part of the problem, I believe.
For what it's worth, I don't consider myself racist. God, no. If anything I am "culturalist". Just because I don't like how black youths act and the trash they call "music", it doesn't mean that I am automatically prejudiced towards black people per se. I have worked with and alongside black people and have got on fine with them. Admittedly they were all professionals, with not one of them admitting to liking rap, garage or the like.
As you know full well, I don't like working class oiks either - you know, the sort of moon in mediterranean resorts on holidays paid for with benefit money. Does this mean that I don't like the wider racial group into which they fall? Of course not, for to generalise to such an extent would be equally ludicrous as suggesting that I don't like black people because I despair at black youth culture.
Essentially, if your definition of a "racist" is someone who hates black people per se i.e. for no reason other than the fact they are black - then I clearly don't fit into this.
If your definition of "racist" is someone who thinks rap music is shite, which I do, then I am a "racist". Sue me.
And if your definition of a "racist" is of the same school as the filter on handbag.com and includes people who use the word "snigger", then most of us on this board are guilty.
quote:
2. If someone said outright on here, "yes I am a racist", would that be, or become accepted at all? Would the candour even be respected?
I would first ask that person in what way they are "racist". It may well be that they are not actually racist at all. Candour is always a good thing. Society will get nowhere if we (a) hide what we believe; and (b) resort to bullshit because we are not comfortable with discussing what we believe.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Now I feel bad.I meant you were putting us to shame Sabian, not that you shouldn't comment.
I am by no means saying that America is less racist than the UK, by the way... I'm only saying that when I'm home... When someone says "nigger" back home, I know what's what... Here, it's more subtle, and because of the subtly, more dangerous.
Again, though, it's only my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
Question: Are they 'acting black'?
She is. Check that afro.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Bullshit
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
No, you'd probably mention corruption, cannibalism and his despicable Communist roots.
Many African states are riddled with corruption, so to mention this would not exactly be outre. I'd probably say the same things when talking about Italy, Greece, or Balkan Europe though.
The mention of cannibalism might be a bit much, but then we need to consider that this has gone on in modern Africa. Though not in Ghana, so far as I am aware.
And as for my hatred of communism - I wouldn't even go there, for it is completely and utterly colourblind. Black commie, white commie purple with green spots commie, no difference, pal.
quote:
And how is denigrating Black youth preferable, or even different, to denigrating Blacks in general?
I'd look at this question again. I'd guess that there are a fair few black people - in the older age bracket, admittedly - who despair at the state of black youth. Could the old Jamaican guy who cuffs his errant grandson for joining in with the local gang be accused of denigrating blacks in general?
quote:
That's a pretty good definition of racism right there...
Maybe, if that's how you choose to interpret the term.
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
it's a hat made out of a tea cosy.
Racist!
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:Any American who calls the British on racism has got some fucking hide on them.
Unless ofcourse you are being racist....
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: sabian ]
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Ok.. your definition works for the purposes of this argument. You're still a prejudiced bigot. And anyway, everyone knows that "culturalism" is the new racism.
You really are the prize oyster, aren't you?
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
I'd guess that there are a fair few black people - in the older age bracket, admittedly - who despair at the state of black youth.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Could the old Jamaican guy who cuffs his errant grandson for joining in with the local gang be accused of denigrating blacks in general?
Not everywhere is what you see on the news... Ironically enough, in my travels (44 of the lower 48 states), New England is more racist than the stereotypical south was...
No matter where you go, you'll have fuck-tards, but... For the most part, I rarely encountered racism... Unless you count being a young white male. In the states, there is still a push to make amends for slavery with affirmitive action and the such, that if you are a white male you might as well be invisible.
That said, my best friend was black and when we went out (during the 10 years we hung out almost every night) I think we came across racism maybe 10-15 times... In my experience, most people leave people alone.
I'm a bit tired and dumb so I don't know if I answered your question mate!
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: sabian ]
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
So any Black adult who doesn't share your desperation about Black youth culture is intellectually stunted?
I wouldn't put it quite like that.
quote:
Snorton = Dekus
You've lost me there. Is it a black thing?
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
At considerable risk of taking this completely out of context... Why is my being American make my observations/opinions any less valid?
America invented racism.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
America invented racism.
Nuh-uh... We invented everything else though!
Can I blame booze?
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
In the states, there is still a push to make amends for slavery with affirmitive action and the such, that if you are a white male you might as well be invisible.
Oh, boo-fucking-hoo.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
America invented racism.
This is a racist comment. If one sees an anti-American statement as being a racist statement, that is. That said, America is a country, not a race. Or is it?
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
Nice picture. Servants.
Here's one I found.
(Rick, keep your hands out of your pants.)
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Oh, boo-fucking-hoo.
Here ya go mate: 
I don't complain about being 'invisible', but I don't condone reverse racism either...
Just because some bad shit happened in the past doesn't mean that is ok to switch the beneficiary <sp?> and the 'victim'... People always whinge about equality, but it'll never happen when there are 'perks' for being a minority. It'll only keep breeding resentment in the white population and esculate tensions against the minority group.
My best friend, he went to Uni on a full ride because he was black. I had to quit because I couldn't afford my tuition and couldn't get govenment help even though I was the better student in Highschool. There is the United Negro College Fund, Miss Black America contest, NAACP, etc etc... Could you imagine the 'social unrest' that would occur should someone set up the United White College fund or the Miss White beauty pagent?
All I'm saying is, if you want to be treated equal, then ALL things should be equal.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Racist!
B..b..but... this is my dad ===> 
how can I be a racist?
But this is Rick's dad ===> 
so he must be one.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: Gail ]
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Can we remember for a minute that Britain's hands aren't exactly clean?
Ooh, a link. Can you not fucking read? Do you have a blindspot for qualifiers and validation?
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
United Negro College Fund.
I thought the term "negro" was archaic and bad. Pshaw.
We've discussed the reverse racism and "affirmative blacktion" thing before Sabian, and you know that I am in complete agreement with you. I wouldn't go asking why there is a "Miss White America" etc. though, as you know you will be helpfully informed that the main Miss America contest is always won by a white woman anyway. Or something like that.
Anyway, I'll be back later today. I'll leave it up to you with your boxes of tissues and Masky with his nasty lynching photos to slug it out.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Ooh, a link. Can you not fucking read? Do you have a blindspot for qualifiers and validation?
Just pointing out how inappropriate your holier-than-thou attitude is BM.
You've taken the point away from ethics and made it about countries.
America is also the home of the civil rights movement, not just racism.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
American Blacks need all the help they can get. Don't kid yourself that some nice white Governor from Kentucky set all those funds and affirmative action outfits up. Black people had to fight for them, and just because your black pal got lucky and you didn't doesn't mean the table's tipped too far the other way. All those pageants, programs and projects are a drop in the ocean compared to the stranglehold the white middle-classes have on freedom, justice and the American way.
Yeah, I admit that whites are still in power... But, it isn't the "nice white Governor from Kentucky" going out and lynching people... It's the poor white dipshits that get passed over for jobs/schools/tax breaks/etc that get pissed off about it and after a night on the Moonshine, ties some innocent to a pickup truck and drags him through town...
Ofcourse the big money/power is in the hands of the whites... They had it since America came into its own and they want to keep it... Gradually, it is evening out... Not as fast as I'd like to see, granted... But, it is getting there... But, it isn't going to make a shit bit of difference because it's always going to be the poor people doing the lynching or being <rick>black</rick>... Perception has to change from the bottom rung of the ladder... Not the top.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
holier-than-thou attitude
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
You've taken the point away from ethics and made it about countries
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
America is also the home of the civil rights movement, not just racism
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
You're right. As soon as Sabian cries for mercy and admits he should be ashamed of himself I'll get back on topic.
I may not be able to debate with you on calibre of Rick/Ben/Kovacs... Cuz, I's stupid innit...
But, I'm stubborn as shit, and I don't give up... So, might as well go back to the topic mate... Save yourself the trouble!
First,
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
Perception has to change from the bottom rung of the ladder... Not the top.
That's bullshit.
Second,
The NRA.
You imply Britain is less racist and always has been less racist than the US. Is this really true?
The US civil rights movement is more than simply 'cause and effect', as the it has had a greater influence in the UK than US racism ever has. Doesn't this mean we should consider this an equally important American trait as racism? Otherwise you are saying 'the invention of the lever was trivial, as those who invented it had to move a heavy object.'
First,
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
That's bullshit.
Second,
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
The NRA.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
I can't possibly work out the UBB to quote you right now,
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:You imply Britain is less racist and always has been less racist than the US.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:Is this really true?
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:The US civil rights movement is more than simply 'cause and effect', as the it has had a greater influence in the UK than US racism ever has. Doesn't this mean we should consider this an equally important American trait as racism? Otherwise you are saying 'the invention of the lever was trivial, as those who invented it had to move a heavy object.
Which part?
And the Tupac/Powell thing... Duh, obviously. A tough, handsome, rich, talented superstar or an overweight, coffee-coloured doormat for Donald Rumsfeld. Who would you rather be?
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
Which part?
Which part? Which part? Which part, what?
Jesus. This is what happens when you teach your monkey to type then feed him Special Brew all evening.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Sabian, there is absolutely no comparison between the power and influence of the NRA and that of the BNP.
You already have Prescott acting as though he is a BNP inductee... But, I'll concede on this point because I do not know enough about British government to make valid points.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
And the Tupac/Powell thing... Duh, obviously. A tough, handsome, rich, talented superstar or an overweight, coffee-coloured doormat for Donald Rumsfeld. Who would you rather be?
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
If the BNP continues its rise and gains more and more power it will become a very strong party in the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
I'd rather be Powell because he has power, responsiblity, and the chance to make a difference...
What, you mean, like "I recommend the shrimp, Mr Bush. It's very good today.", like that?
Anyway...this began with your premise (and mine, later retracted) that it was unreasonable for an American to comment on British racism, to which I pointed out that America was also the birthplace of the modern civil rights movement, which has had a greater influence on the UK than American racism...making an American as qualified as anyone else to comment. Would you have told Martin Luther King to fuck off because he was an American? WHICH PART of this do you have a problem with.
Honestly, I'm having to talk in kiddyspeak so often I'm starting to wonder if some people here might not be a little bit thick.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
A dangerous combination as I am discovering.Anyway...this began with your premise (and mine, later retracted) that it was unreasonable for an American to comment on British racism, to which I pointed out that America was also the birthplace of the modern civil rights movement, which has had a greater influence on the UK than American racism...making an American as qualified as anyone else to comment. Would you have told Martin Luther King to fuck off because he was an American? WHICH PART of this do you have a problem with.
Honestly, I'm having to talk in kiddyspeak so often I'm starting to wonder if some people here might not be a little bit thick.
I'm quoting this for your own good. You'll thank me one day.
Read it tomorrow and you'll realise why it's not worth answering tonight.
You are dismissed, MNIj.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
What, you mean, like "I recommend the shrimp, Mr Bush. It's very good today.", like that?
I said he had power, responsibility, and the chance to make a difference... I didn't say he used these effectively, or at all for that matter...
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
What a cop out. Black Mask, you are officially GAY. You'll thank me later for telling you.
Okay, you lungless cock-wrestler, if I have to address your ill-thought-out drivel, tell me, what is 'American racism'? You keep talking about it like it's a fucking brand-name. And you're equating 'American racism' with 'American civil rights', insisting on me identifying their relative influences in British History. You're not making any sense.
Do you really believe there was no resistance to racism or inequality anywhere in the world until the offspring of emancipated slaves organised themselves in America?
Well. That's me told...
quote:
Originally posted by sabian:
I said he had power, responsibility, and the chance to make a difference... I didn't say he used these effectively, or at all for that matter...
Maybe if he was WHITE?
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Maybe if he was WHITE?
Then, this conversation wouldn't have ever happened, duh...
Now
...
I'm going to bed.
Nice jacket, Sabe. You been working out?
I cited the American civil rights movement as a counterweight to your lynching picture, which you posted to to demonstrate how much worse the US was than Britain. I was trying to make you see that an American might have something of value to add.
I said the American civil rights movement had huge influences on the UK because in Northern Ireland an almost carbon copy sprang up at the same time, and that was surely the largest civil rights movement to ever happen in the UK.
You really are very uncivil, Black Mask.
[ 06 September 2003: Message edited by: My Name Is Joe ]
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
I'm saying nothing more than it's wrong to try an exclude an American from this debate because 'America is racist.'
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
I cited the American civil rights movement as a counterweight to your lynching picture, which you posted to to demonstrate how much worse the US was than Britain. I was trying to make you see that an American might have something of value to add.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
I said the American civil rights movement had huge influences on the UK because in Northern Ireland an almost carbon copy sprang up at the same time, and that was surely the largest civil rights movement to ever happen in the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
You really are very uncivil, Black Mask
Can I get some sleep now?
Sleep tight!
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Goodnight. I've had fun.
Manlove type fun, no doubt...
I'll be brief. You cannot really compare Britain and the US when examining racism. They two countries are very different, and have developed in completely separate directions after the US achieved its independence. The US has a history of slavery, Britain does not (except, perhaps, in Toxteth lol). This is the fundamanetal difference.
Looking at the situation in both countries today, one can possibly argue that Britain is more "racist" because there are few black people in the upper echelons of the establishment, while there are a number of black people in the equivalent positions in the US - high-powered politicians, high-ranking army officers, etc. In America there is Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice; here we have Paul Boateng and Trevor Phillips. Work it out for yourself, one may argue.
On the other hand in Britain organised racism - if it actually exists - is left in the hands of disparate groups of psychopaths - groups which even the likes of the BNP* are at pains trying to disassociate themselves with. However in the US, you can drive to places like Hayden Lake and watch bands of kooks spend the morning in "church" and the afternoon playing mock "hunt the nigger" games, before settling in the evening for communal cross-burning. It's six of one and half-dozen of the other, really.
As far as black identity and role models are concerned, Sabian did hit on a key point. Tupac, seen as a martyr by some, is more of a role model to many black kids than a responsible authority figure like Colin Powell. This is unfortunate, and is not helped by people adopting the sort of thinking BM voiced - namely, that Powell and his ilk are coffee-coloured dogsbodies serving their white masters.
*To add - Sabian - the BNP have zero chance of getting anywhere, due to the fact that in spite of adopting a few more cogent policies, their candidates are still out of work plumbers, lorry drivers and welders who support football teams from northern provincial towns. BM - the NRA is a pwerful lobby in the US, but they can hardly be classified as a "racist" organisation.
What's more, I like Chuck Heston. He was great in Ben Hur.
quote:
Originally posted by mimolette:
Isn't this whole thread just cock?
You won't find Ben's cock here. So be a good little bunny and hop along.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
BM - the NRA is a pwerful lobby in the US, but they can hardly be classified as a "racist" organisation.
lol
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
You cannot really compare Britain and the US when examining racism. They two countries are very different, and have developed in completely separate directions after the US achieved its independence. The US has a history of slavery, Britain does not (except, perhaps, in Toxteth lol). This is the fundamanetal difference.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
Snorton judges reality by the content of advertising. Telling.
The guy is not just a black face on a poster. He's also on their committee.
quote:
Originally posted by H1ppychick:
You might like to read this.
I was aware of the fact that shipping cities in England profited from the slave trade - hence my mention of Toxteth, a suburn of Liverpool, originally.
However, slavery was but a blip in British history; it happened, yes - but only in isolated areas like those mentioned. Cardiff. Bristol. Liverpool. It was never widespread - we never had slaves picking mushrooms in Norfolk or mining tin in Cornwall, for example. In the US, however, slavery was woven into the fabric of a society that was not even a century old, and it was from this that the polarised nature of American society began to develop as it did. From slavery grew segregation, something which was in place intil very recently. Indeed, it is still enforced at some high schools in the south.
The division is entrenched in American history and society; the same does not exist and has never existed here. This is the fundamental difference.
Racism is just one symptom of people's basic inability to live peacefully with people. It will never go away, and will exist as long as there are people.
And another thing:
To judge one person from the actions of others is just the same racism that is so unfashionable these days.
The sad part is its unavoidability. People will continue to judge on appearance.
The only thing that can be done: to accept the inevitability of unfair judgement, and yet strive to avoid it.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
However, slavery was but a blip in British history; it happened, yes - but only in isolated areas like those mentioned. Cardiff. Bristol.
The fundamental economics of some major cities were based not only on the trafficking of flesh itself but on dealing in the profits of their labours - sugar, cotton, coffee to name but three. Primarily sourced from the Indies from British plantations. I believe, though may be wrong, that it is partially from the Indies that the American plantation owners sourced their own labour, rather than directly from the British traders. In any event, slavery in the US probably wouldn't have happened to the extent that it did without British fingers in the pie.
Responsibility isn't a mere question of direct labour. It's all cause and effect. And whilst you might not have seen rank of imported slaves working the fields in Oxfordshire in the 16-1700s, the economy which drove the expansion of Empire was partially fuelled by the trade in human flesh, so yes, we were all slavers, albeit at a remove.
On a separate point, intolerance and bigotry isn't necessarily the function of regarding a section of society as less than human, human being taken to be a reflection of the self. It is also fuelled by resentment caused by the feeling that something which you thought was 'yours' was taken away from you and was never therefore really 'yours', the perception that someone else has it (unfairly) sweeter than you. I'm not an expert by any means, and I am fairly drunk, but from what I've heard/read, a lot of the UK's racial intolerance, towards blacks in particular, was a direct result of throwing open UK citizenship to the Caribbean Commonwealth, perhaps fuelled by guilt from our dark past in the slave trade (see, it all links through), hence Windrush, and 'they're taking our jobs/registering on our dole' etc, (the current version of which is the resentment towards asylum seekers).
Not sure what point I'm making (did I mention that I was drunk?) but things are certainly not as cut and dried as you seem to be saying regarding levels of and reasons for 'institutional' or overt racism.
quote:
Originally posted by H1ppychick:
The fundamental economics of some major cities were based not only on the trafficking of flesh itself but on dealing in the profits of their labours - sugar, cotton, coffee to name but three. Primarily sourced from the Indies from British plantations. I believe, though may be wrong, that it is partially from the Indies that the American plantation owners sourced their own labour, rather than directly from the British traders. In any event, slavery in the US probably wouldn't have happened to the extent that it did without British fingers in the pie.
Although I am aware of the salient points, this area is not my "plantation", so to speak - what you say makes sense, and I have no reason to argue with the most of the points you have outlined. I don't necessarily agree however that slavery in the US would not have been taken to the extent that it did "without British fingers in the pie"; slavery in the US continued long after the trade was ended in Britain, and it created a unique polarisation in American society which didn't happen in this country.
This polarisation of course was influential in leading to the US Civil War. The legacy of slavery spawned the bitter disputes over segregation which lasted well into the lifetimes of many of those on here, and after that the rather ridiculous restitution policies and "affirmative action" schemes.
Britain profited from the slave trade, and this is something that cannot be denied. However, America was born with it and into it, and for that reason the underlying web it spun has remained ingrained in the American psyche.
quote:
Responsibility isn't a mere question of direct labour. It's all cause and effect. And whilst you might not have seen rank of imported slaves working the fields in Oxfordshire in the 16-1700s, the economy which drove the expansion of Empire was partially fuelled by the trade in human flesh, so yes, we were all slavers, albeit at a remove.
Again, fair point. But it was, as you say, "at a remove". Whereas in the US it played a significant role in that country's early development.
quote:
On a separate point, intolerance and bigotry isn't necessarily the function of regarding a section of society as less than human, human being taken to be a reflection of the self. It is also fuelled by resentment caused by the feeling that something which you thought was 'yours' was taken away from you and was never therefore really 'yours', the perception that someone else has it (unfairly) sweeter than you.I'm not an expert by any means, and I am fairly drunk, but from what I've heard/read, a lot of the UK's racial intolerance, towards blacks in particular, was a direct result of throwing open UK citizenship to the Caribbean Commonwealth, perhaps fuelled by guilt from our dark past in the slave trade (see, it all links through), hence Windrush, and 'they're taking our jobs/registering on our dole' etc, (the current version of which is the resentment towards asylum seekers).
I think it is a lot more complicated than this. Yes, there are still some boneheads in this country who continue to use the rather tiresome "they're talking our jobs/women/etc." mantra. However, I genuinely believe that the threat today is more real, particularly given the increase of foreign gangs, who have brought their own battles to the streets of Britain. When I complain about Turks, Kurds and Albanians coming over to Britain for example, I am not worried about them "stealing our women" - lol - I am concerned about the money laundering, drug trafficking and prostitution rackets that have seen something of an explosion since the arrival of these people. An Albanian "refugee" whose sole business is trading girls for the vice trade is a far cry from the hard-working Jamaicans and Barbadians who arrived here in the 1960s.
quote:
Not sure what point I'm making (did I mention that I was drunk?) but things are certainly not as cut and dried as you seem to be saying regarding levels of and reasons for 'institutional' or overt racism.
Yes, you did say you were drunk. Agreed, things are not cut and dried, not by a long shot. But compared to America - where this little sidetrack discussion began - we should be happy with the situation we have here.
[ 07 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
He's also on their committee.
What a great cross-section of society.
If you look, you'll find lots of cases where black people are members and activists in the NRA. I also found this interesting story where a NRA-backed militia, led by a black ex-marine, used force of arms to keep the local Klan out of their town.
Ironic, no?
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Ironic, no?
Ironic? No.
Unless you concede the NRA are racist...
My gripe here is that you have not acknowledged that there might be another side to this argument. You do have a valid point - one which I haven't actually disputed - in that there are many in the NRA who might hold nativist beliefs. However, there are a good many others who don't. If of course you choose to ignore the latter, you can quite easily get away with calling the entire organisation "racist".
If you pick all the little pieces of ham out of a bowl and pea and ham soup, you can pass it off as a vegetarian dish.
In the massive privatised American prison system, inmates work for prison-industrial corporations like UNICOR, doing everything from customer service call-centre jobs for Microsoft to manufacturing for defence giant Lockheed-Martin.
Profits from such work pays for the prisons themselves and enriches the shareholders of the prisons. The prisoners are paid a pittance and have no labour rights. legislation on minimum wage, health and safety, and the right to organise unions does not apply.
Effective political lobbying also means that there are no restrictions on UNICOR's right to compete in the open marketplace, i.e. they are allowed to capitalise on their lower costs by pricing rivals using non-prison labour out of business.
With so called '3 strikes' laws putting large numbers of people in jail for life for crimes such as shoplifting, and the targeting by the police of mainly poor ethnic minorities, there is a more than minor chance that any person of colour could end up working for the rest of their life in jail.
[ 07 September 2003: Message edited by: Stefanos ]
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Not really. It's been contaminated.
O dear.
Let me explain. Slowly.
If we keep highlighting the fact that there are some people in the NRA who have nativist leanings, and at the same time refuse to acknowledge there might be another side to the debate, it is easy to pass off the idea that "the NRA is racist" to someone who is sitting outside the discussion.
In the same way, if one was to highlight the fact that there are peas in the soup, and refuse to acknowledge that there are pieces of ham in there (or worse still remove them), it is easy to pass off the soup as a vegetarian dish to someone who is sitting outside the kitchen.
It's really not that difficult to comprehend.
quote:
Originally posted by Stefanos:
.[ 07 September 2003: Message edited by: Stefanos ]
What's with the full stop, Steffi?
quote:
Originally posted by Production Unit A57293/G1:
Many would argue that slavery continues in the United States in a disguised form.
I wouldn't doubt that. For one, it would add further weight to my initial point comparing the level of racism in the US to that in Britain.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
O dear.Let me explain. Slowly.
If we keep highlighting the fact that there are some people in the NRA who have nativist leanings, and at the same time refuse to acknowledge there might be another side to the debate, it is easy to pass off the idea that "the NRA is racist" to someone who is sitting outside the discussion.
In the same way, if one was to highlight the fact that there are peas in the soup, and refuse to acknowledge that there are pieces of ham in there (or worse still remove them), it is easy to pass off the soup as a vegetarian dish to someone who is sitting outside the kitchen.
It's really not that difficult to comprehend.
OH... you think I didn't understand you. Phuking Phool.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
What's with the full stop, Steffi?
Because I can see myself getting into long posts trying to justify my point of view - and I don't have the time to do it justice right now...
[ 07 September 2003: Message edited by: Stefanos ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
In the same way, if one was to highlight the fact that there are peas in the soup, and refuse to acknowledge that there are pieces of ham in there (or worse still remove them), it is easy to pass off the soup as a vegetarian dish to someone who is sitting outside the kitchen.
Yeah... to qualify. To pass this soup off as "vegetarian" would be a lie. Just as, to pass off the NRA as uncontaminated by its racist elite would be a lie. You actually explained it, yourself, in your penultimate post.
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Yeah... to qualify. To pass this soup off as "vegetarian" would be a lie. Just as, to pass off the NRA as uncontaminated by its racist elite would be a lie. You actually explained it, yourself, in your penultimate post.
As I clearly state in my exchange with Black Mask, I have not once attempted to suggest that the NRA is free of racist elements, but that it contains people from all sections of US society - white, black, NoI, nativist, whatever - whose sole aim is to promote their right to bear arms. In short, I was objecting to BM's ludicrous suggestion that the NRA is "racist".
What's your position, "Lauren"? You are suggesting that the NRA has been "contaminated" by those with a racist and/or nativist agenda. This can cohabit quite happily with my position. However, would you go so far as to suggest that the NRA is a "racist" organisation, as Black Mask argued? If not, I can't really see why we are aguing about this.
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Why did you put my pseudonym in inverted commas?
Don't "pretend" you don't "know" Lauren. Your "show" "of" ignorance can't "fool" the infamous "Samuelnorton"! This sham "of" "a" persona "is" totally "SeeThru" and your "card" "is" "marked" mon ami"."
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Why did you put my pseudonym in inverted commas?
Ah, you noticed. I'm just harking back to the time when you first appeared and jumped straight into a thread yabbering about your Jewishness. When I thought you were Ben. Are you Ben?
quote:
Anyway, I'd agree with Black Mask on this and he's provided ample reasons for the claim that overall, the NRA is racist, with those few black members being the exception(s) that proves the rule.
So it's a bit like the Metropolitan Police, then?
Racist?
Racist?
Racist?
quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
Don't "pretend" you don't "know" Lauren. Your "show" "of" ignorance can't "fool" the infamous "Samuelnorton"! This sham "of" "a" persona "is" totally "SeeThru" and your "card" "is" "marked" mon ami"."
lol. But why no eggs?
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
HUR?
MPI?
NBA?
HURMPINBA..?
Is it an anagram?
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
Fuck off.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Mask:
HURMPINBA..?Is it an anagram?
Oh shit. Rumbled. Three words, uttered by a lil' redneck boy when he saw his ol' daddy with a lil' blacke boy in one hand and a can of petrol in the other.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Rick J:
Fuck off.
Oooh, when did you get so eloquent?
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
Oooh, when did you get so eloquent?
It's just that you've offered nothing at all to this thread. I'd actually like to hear what you have to say, as despite our differences I think some of your offerings have stimulated some good discussions on here in the past.
However, if you've really got nothing to offer than witless administrative recommendations, then I'd repeat my previous "eloquent" suggestion.
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
As it is, this thread descended into pointlessness some time ago.
You mean from the initial post.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Thanks, I was trying my best on some of the posts I contributed. It's a bit harsh to write off the entire thread, in my opinion.
I detect a touch of the old kovacian pride overruling the 2003 NewVacs humble and modest version, since MNIJ's unfounded "verbiage" comment the other day...
Your defence of Ben was accurate and well put; I just don't see the point of this thread at all.
Although it has confirmed a lot of things, I suppose.
quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
I detect a touch of the old kovacian pride overruling the 2003 NewVacs humble and modest version, since MNIJ's unfounded "verbiage" comment the other day...
Like most people, I don't write within the bounds of a persona I've drawn up for a specific year. I think anyone, including you, would be a bit defensive and annoyed if they'd written a few lengthy posts and put some thought into their contributions, then had them all written off.
I won't take this any further because of course the thread isn't all about me. I hope Kovacs being "proud" isn't so last year, though.
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
I think anyone, including you, would be a bit defensive and annoyed if they'd written a few lengthy posts and put some thought into their contributions, then had them all written off.
Actually kovacs, I will ammend my previous perceived harshness by flattering your professional pride and asking you if you could please clarify how to reference films in a bibliography, as it's ages since I've had to.
Would it be:
Gattaca, 1997, Nicols, A. (USA)
I can't remember what order the info should go in.
Thank you.
Directors Name (dir.) (Year) Title, distributor.
hope this helps!
There are, as she says, various styles of referencing so they probably all have slightly different rules for films.
Now this thread has been of value!
Same applies to Gail.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
This thread: why?
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Vogon, what is your problem? If you were not in favour of this thread, why bother posting to it? Would it not have been better to just ignore it completely?
I have a problem with threads seemingly started to dissect and criticise specific posters. It's aggressive, slightly childish and unnecessary.
I genuinely didn't understand the purpose of the thread. Did you think you would win a popularity contest with ben? Did you expect everyone to post accounts of their entire posting history with ben, complete with textual analysis of every comment he's ever made towards them? What kind of precedent were you trying to set? What has this thread achieved?
(I have nothing else to say which is why I haven't started a new fred, but y'know, Darryn might get cross... )
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: Modge ]
quote:
Originally posted by Rick J:
If you were not in favour of this thread, why bother posting to it?
Like me, Rick, you're not in favour of all sorts of things. When are you going to stop posting about them?
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
I'd kind of resolved not to engage with you again Rick, as I find it singularly frustrating. Plus, if I have an argument with Ben, I will have that argument with him, not join in your attempt at a witch hunt. As it is, this thread descended into pointlessness some time ago.
Frustrating, eh? You mean like ignoring my production of evidence after you asked for such on the "Liberia" thread? Come on, you can do better than that. You could have been gracious; instead you offer the rubbish argument that you are "frustrated". As for this thread descending into "pointlessness", a simple reading of what has been written will prove the opposite has been the case. Maybe this is the reason for your rather pathetic "close this thread" suggestion?
The reason some people on here find me "frustrating" to deal with is fairly simple: first, they don't know me, and therefore cannot differentiate between what is my personal opinion and what is the rather hammed-up "Nazi" persona I used since the very beginning of time on this board and SeeThru (RIP) before it.
Second, a good many who have expressed "frustration" - yourself, Ben among others - share this uncanny ability of not being able to see, let alone acknowledge, any decent point I might happen to make, even if it is glaringly obvious to all and sundry. It's that nasty Snorton you see, and I cannot be seen to accept anything he says as being even slightly reasonable, for we must continue to promote the idea that he is a lying, nasty, arrogrant, pompous Nazi fuck. This is why what would otherwise be a half-decent debate is quickly transformed into an exercise in mud-slinging, name-calling and general boorishness.
I find it frustrating when I counter Ben with an hour or so of my time, only for him to ignore everything I say save the lines he can twist into something else and add something like "fuck off, you spastic" at the end. But what's even more annoying is that fact that as most people probably skim-read and don't actually read into our turgid exchanges anyway, any points I might have made are lost in the mud, and the feeling that Ben has somehow emerged "victorious" develops.
Compare this to the approach taken by Kovacs for example, who remains considered and reasonable in his opinions, and willing to accept a point he might not necessarily agree with personally. I find it odd how I have never got into a single mud-slinging session with Kovacs, while Ben and I can create a ten-page thread based on our differences of opinion on the width of a regulation slice of thick-sliced bread.
It's just insane.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
I find it odd how I have never got into a single mud-slinging session with Kovacs, while Ben and I can create a ten-page thread based on our differences of opinion on the width of a regulation slice of thick-sliced bread.
It's because you utterly fucking hate each other's guts. Hope that helps.
quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
It's because you utterly fucking hate each other's guts. Hope that helps.
This is probably true. Anyway, I think this thread has probably run its course. It would only be right for Ben to have the last word. Keeping in fashion, and all that.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
they cannot differentiate between what is my personal opinion and what is the rather hammed-up "Nazi" personaAcknowledge any decent point I might happen to make
It's that nasty Snorton you see, and I cannot be seen to accept anything he says as being even slightly reasonable, for we must continue to promote the idea that he is a lying, nasty, arrogrant, pompous Nazi fuck.
I think this all boils down to people knowing you. Like when you've known some one for so long that you begin to lose track of their good points and only see their bad habits etc.
I'm fairly new on this board and have had a few interesting debates involving Snort's comments. I found them both interesting and with good points. However I have also read threads with Snort getting into an 'arguement' (not with me personally mind you) and some of the things you say to others can be very insulting, to the point that its hard to take them with a pinch of salt. Tact is not your strong point.
I don't think starting a thread like this helped anyone to work out the difference between Snort and Nazi. And in that point I am saying I don't think you are doing yourself any favours. It has come across in totally the wrong way to a few people as you have seen.
I'm really not meaning to be nasty or take sides, but I will say that of everyone on here your posts are the only ones using insults etc that seem to have some hidden meaning behind them (again not in my personal experience). Sure everyone gets riled in an arguement, everyone can lash out etc, but sometimes you're just a bit, well, 'nasty'. Even if it is without meaning to be.
As for Ben, in my opinion, his personality doesn't come through so strongly so I can't really comment. He seems nice, and genuine but I haven't built up as much of an opinion of him as I have for Snort.
Does that make sense? No offense meant to anyone (esp Snort as I have enjoyed many threads you've started and a few conversations that we've had before), I also understand that I am new and have never met any of you, so I may not have so much of a right to post here as others. I just wanted to say my thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by moggycookie:
I think this all boils down to people knowing you. Like when you've known some one for so long that you begin to lose track of their good points and only see their bad habits etc.
Yep. I pretty much said the same thing.
quote:
I'm fairly new on this board and have had a few interesting debates involving Snort's comments. I found them both interesting and with good points. However I have also read threads with Snort getting into an 'arguement' (not with me personally mind you) and some of the things you say to others can be very insulting, to the point that its hard to take them with a pinch of salt. Tact is not your strong point.
I cant really argue with the view that tact is not my strong point. However, at times I indulge in a deliberate tactlessness, Gail being the most recent recipient.
quote:
I don't think starting a thread like this helped anyone to work out the difference between Snort and Nazi. And in that point I am saying I don't think you are doing yourself any favours. It has come across in totally the wrong way to a few people as you have seen.
If you are talking about Gail, VP (and the mysterious newbie "Lauren"), I wasn't really hoping for anything other than what they provided. What I'd like to ask is what did you think?
quote:
I'm really not meaning to be nasty or take sides, but I will say that of everyone on here your posts are the only ones using insults etc that seem to have some hidden meaning behind them (again not in my personal experience). Sure everyone gets riled in an arguement, everyone can lash out etc, but sometimes you're just a bit, well, 'nasty'. Even if it is without meaning to be.
Again, the "nastiness" has been pretty much a controlled thing. I wouldn't read too much into my sustained outburst output last week - if you are doing this - as it was part of a exercise in open trolling tactics. The truth is that I don't really think that rodents would choose to live in Gail's nether regions, for one. There's nothing "hidden" here - many people know that Gail has (or had) a couple of pet rats that were given lots of time outside their cage.
quote:
As for Ben, in my opinion, his personality doesn't come through so strongly so I can't really comment. He seems nice, and genuine but I haven't built up as much of an opinion of him as I have for Snort.
lol.
quote:
I wouldn't read too much into my sustained outburst output last week - if you are doing this - as it was part of a exercise in open trolling tactics.
Okay class, how has Rickaroo just exposed himself as a nasty?
ol *ooo sir, me sir, me!*
Hand down Gail. You answered the last time.
lo *sir, sir!*
Black Mask?
o *self-delusional racist with munchausen’s-by-proxy approach to racism in others?*
Haha. No.
lO
Ben? You big-headed lunk you.
*subjecting us all to ‘a’ exercise in open trolling is extremely patronising, indicating a level of thought whereby tmo – or at least several of its members – exist to react to him. it suggests an intellectual gap and superiority that his text contributions don’t support.*
Well done Ben.
O
Don’t be smug. Chances are he learned from you.
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
Like me, Rick, you're not in favour of all sorts of things. When are you going to stop posting about them?
I have to say that this is the only post I've read on the last 8 pages of this thread that actually makes any sense at all.
No one likes a hypocrite Rick.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
The US civil rights movement is more than simply 'cause and effect', as the it has had a greater influence in the UK than US racism ever has. Doesn't this mean we should consider this an equally important American trait as racism? Otherwise you are saying 'the invention of the lever was trivial, as those who invented it had to move a heavy object.'
No sense? This the purest piece of logic I've ever seen!
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Comeback Elvis:
Chances are he learned from you.
I wish *I* was a social worker like Elvis.
I wish everyone was.
quote:
Originally posted by My Name Is Joe:
No sense? This the purest piece of logic I've ever seen!
Oh, yes! That one's going in the book.
quote:
Originally posted by ben:
I wish *I* was a social worker like Elvis.
I wish everyone was.
Your sarcasm is milk for me, bne. Cheapshots behind the back are where it's at.
lOol <-- Bne and me having a cuddle.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
Frustrating, eh? You mean like ignoring my production of evidence after you asked for such on the "Liberia" thread? Come on, you can do better than that. You could have been gracious; instead you offer the rubbish argument that you are "frustrated".
As I've suggested before, if I were Gail I would be treating you as persona non grata and not sparing you a moment of my time. Your grotesque remarks about her, in my view, long ago lost you the right to expect any reasonable answers back from her. Saying these were "joke" insults and that you don't mean them literally is pretty weak; either you meant to hurt someone personally or you didn't. I'm reluctant to keep bringing this up because it's distasteful, but I don't see how you think if you reckon you can make vicious jibes about someone then criticise them for not giving you an answer on Liberia.
quote:
The reason some people on here find me "frustrating" to deal with is fairly simple: first, they don't know me, and therefore cannot differentiate between what is my personal opinion and what is the rather hammed-up "Nazi" persona I used since the very beginning of time on this board and SeeThru (RIP) before it.
I'm going to state the blindingly obvious here. You do it to yourself, just you, you and no-one else.
On this thread you have, within a few pages:
- made jokes about negroes
- described black youths as wearing tea cosies and funny clothes
- painted a nightmarish picture of grinning Somalian gangsters
- claimed that your account of drinking a toast to Hitler was self-parody
- invited me round to watch the amusing and sinister ethnic people with binoculars
- made a crack about the gay problem being sorted out as part of the Final Solution.
How can you blame anyone for not knowing whether your remarks are "ham Nazi" style or your genuine opinion when you seem to move so fluidly from one to another? I said more than once on this thread that your "Nazi" stylisations seem merely like safely-exaggerated versions of your true beliefs, designed to be passed off as humour.
Let me make a suggestion.
If you're annoyed that people think Nazi-type jokes are your true beliefs, why not stop making the Nazi jokes. Why not, when this kind of question comes up, just give your genuine opinions plainly and honestly, without exaggeration or putting on a "voice".
It wouldn't give you a Nazi persona to hide behind, but at least people would be judging you on what you actually believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Rick J:
Frustrating, eh? You mean like ignoring my production of evidence after you asked for such on the "Liberia" thread? Come on, you can do better than that. You could have been gracious; instead you offer the rubbish argument that you are "frustrated". As for this thread descending into "pointlessness", a simple reading of what has been written will prove the opposite has been the case.
You call that one link evidence for your claim of the existence of 'societies where the rape of tens of thousands of children is passed off as a ritual event' in Africa? Remind yourself not to be called to the Bar any time soon. Yes I find arguing with you frustrating - because you consistently ignore points/questions that are inconvenient. Because you repeatedly ignore the bigger picture in order to quibble over details - even over trivial questions such as whether you've denied trolling. Because there is never any development in an argument with you, it just goes over the same old ground time after time. I should be gracious, huh? What do you mean by gracious? See the Rick-tinted light, 'fess up 'it's a fair cop guvnor, I wuz wrong all along'? If this thread has a point, please to explain what the fuck it is? All it proves to me is that you don't like Ben and a lot of people don't like you. No great revelation there.
quote:
The reason some people on here find me "frustrating" to deal with is fairly simple: first, they don't know me, and therefore cannot differentiate between what is my personal opinion and what is the rather hammed-up "Nazi" persona I used since the very beginning of time on this board and SeeThru (RIP) before it.
Persona schmersona. Either way you're a nasty little bigot.
quote:
Second, a good many who have expressed "frustration" - yourself, Ben among others - share this uncanny ability of not being able to see, let alone acknowledge, any decent point I might happen to make, even if it is glaringly obvious to all and sundry. It's that nasty Snorton you see, and I cannot be seen to accept anything he says as being even slightly reasonable, for we must continue to promote the idea that he is a lying, nasty, arrogrant, pompous Nazi fuck. This is why what would otherwise be a half-decent debate is quickly transformed into an exercise in mud-slinging, name-calling and general boorishness.
Bollocks. I've agreed with you on various subjects and on more than one occasion, and I daresay Ben and all the other h8ers have too (note to self: don't do that again!). As to 'mud-slinging, name-calling and general boorishness', lol - can I say pot and kettle?
quote:
I find it frustrating when I counter Ben with an hour or so of my time, only for him to ignore everything I say save the lines he can twist into something else and add something like "fuck off, you spastic" at the end. But what's even more annoying is that fact that as most people probably skim-read and don't actually read into our turgid exchanges anyway, any points I might have made are lost in the mud, and the feeling that Ben has somehow emerged "victorious" develops.
Turgid baby, turgid - you said it. Ben emerging victorious? Personally, I generally end up thinking 'why the fuck does he bother?'
quote:
Compare this to the approach taken by Kovacs for example, who remains considered and reasonable in his opinions, and willing to accept a point he might not necessarily agree with personally. I find it odd how I have never got into a single mud-slinging session with Kovacs, while Ben and I can create a ten-page thread based on our differences of opinion on the width of a regulation slice of thick-sliced bread.
Maybe it's because on the whole Kovacs has the good sense to stay out of political discussions with you?
quote:
It's just insane.
For the second time in one post, I'm agreeing with you.
And to think you had the gall to criticise Pink for his sexual perversions. If I was Nightowl, I'd be making arrangements to have you investigated.
quote:
What I'd like to ask is what did you think?
quote:
deliberate tactlessness
This is all very well, but I'll point something out - a lot of Ben's deliberate tactlessness is based on fictional things. Ie. The story the other day about murdering you & Nightowl - No matter how offensive you found it, it was a fictional situation. It just simply wouldn't happen.
You (Snort) take actual real life scenario's and poke fun and then expect people to find it funny or acceptable. Ie. When you were 'suggesting' that Gail was rather 'portly'. I think you'll find that it actually came across as a very offensive and hurtful remark. I can't find the thread where the remarks took place, but I remember you didn't say 'I think Gail rather portly'. Also you're pokings at black people - there are black people out there who are going to find what you say extremely unnecessary and will come down on you about it! Do you see what I'm getting at? You can't poke fun at RL situations/things because people become defensive. That's why you get the reactions that you do.
Admittedly not all Ben's posts are acceptable - I didn't find the picture of the two murdered Soham girls very pointful. I don't think there was any need for him to post that at all, and yeah, I was a little offended.
quote:
You fucking spastic
Ben does this when forced into a corner or when he can't think of anything better/more to say. You ignore things when you are forced into a corner or can't think of anything better/more to say. Its just a different way of dealing with being wrong, and I don't think either of you can dig at each other for it because it would make you hippocrites.
quote:
Davystoat eh? I'm glad I drove that fucker "to the brink of suicide".Him and Jimbo both.
quote:
As for Ben, in my opinion, his personality doesn't come through so strongly so I can't really comment. He seems nice, and genuine but I haven't built up as much of an opinion of him as I have for Snort.
This was meant in a sense that I haven't really had much of a chance to gain an opinion of him being as I haven't engaged with him as much as I have you. However I will say that I think he is less opinionated than yourself.
I hope that makes sense, I can't be arsed reading through it again.
PS sorry I'm ten pages too late!!!
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
As I've suggested before, if I were Gail I would be treating you as persona non grata and not sparing you a moment of my time. Your grotesque remarks about her, in my view, long ago lost you the right to expect any reasonable answers back from her. Saying these were "joke" insults and that you don't mean them literally is pretty weak; either you meant to hurt someone personally or you didn't. I'm reluctant to keep bringing this up because it's distasteful, but I don't see how you think if you reckon you can make vicious jibes about someone then criticise them for not giving you an answer on Liberia.
But the thread in question happened before the jibes went into overdrive. In any case, she had been posting to the thread until her request was met. If she wished to make me persona non grata after the weekend, then that would have been justified enough. Not that I would have cared too greatly anyway, but that's beside the point.
quote:
I'm going to state the blindingly obvious here. You do it to yourself, just you, you and no-one else.
True to a point. As for the points you made:
...made jokes about negroes Not really. I referred to a spoof theory I mentioned in another thread. The "genetic predisposition" thing.
...described black youths as wearing tea cosies and funny clothes Well some of them do, don't they? What's particularly outrageous about saying this?
...painted a nightmarish picture of grinning Somalian gangsters Try speaking to some of the chaps who work the beat in Harrow on a Saturday night. Or check out some of the local news here. Again, nothing particularly controversial. Somali gangs hang around at the bus station at night. Fact.
...claimed that your account of drinking a toast to Hitler was self-parody As if you could really think anything else. Come on, get real.
...invited me round to watch the amusing and sinister ethnic people with binoculars A joke so glaringly obvious that I can only laugh at your bringing it up here.
...made a crack about the gay problem being sorted out as part of the Final Solution. Read what I said, and then look at what I was replying to when I said it. And then do a bit of elementary history as well. June 1934? Final Solution? O dear.
quote:
How can you blame anyone for not knowing whether your remarks are "ham Nazi" style or your genuine opinion when you seem to move so fluidly from one to another? I said more than once on this thread that your "Nazi" stylisations seem merely like safely-exaggerated versions of your true beliefs, designed to be passed off as humour.
And I have said more than once on this thread that your assumption is wrong.
quote:
Let me make a suggestion.
If you're annoyed that people think Nazi-type jokes are your true beliefs, why not stop making the Nazi jokes. Why not, when this kind of question comes up, just give your genuine opinions plainly and honestly, without exaggeration or putting on a "voice".
Fair enough. Quid pro quo though, Kovacs. Do you really consider Emma Watson "yummy", or is it just an on-the-boards persona? Because, like you with me, I find the two things hard to differentiate sometimes.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
Sam: Goodness knows what the end will be
Oh I don't know where I'm at
It looks as if we two will never be one
Something must be done:
Ben: You say either and I say either,
Sam: You say neither and I say neither
Ben: Either
Sam: Either
Ben: Neither,
Sam: Neither
Together: Let's call the whole thing off.
Ben: You like potato and I like potahto
Sam: You like tomato and I like tomahto
Ben: Potato,
Sam: potahto,
Ben: Tomato,
Sam: tomahto.
Together: Let's call the whole thing off
Ben: But oh, if we call the whole thing off Then we must part
Sam: And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart
Ben: I say Hitler gassed the Jews
You think history’s been confused
Sam: You say The Fuehrer killed the kikes
I say “who cares – Jews no one likes”
Ben: Gassed jews
Sam: History’s confus’d
Ben: Killed kikes
Sam: No one likes.
Together: Let’s call the whole thing off.
Ben: Six million Jews were killed that way
But you just think they ran away
Sam: You say it was a holocaust
And I say that I’ve no remorse
Ben: Killed that way
Sam: They ran away.
Ben: Holocaust,
Sam: I've no remorse,
Together: Let’s call the whole thing off.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: shine ]
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
How can you blame anyone for not knowing whether your remarks are "ham Nazi" style or your genuine opinion when you seem to move so fluidly from one to another? I said more than once on this thread that your "Nazi" stylisations seem merely like safely-exaggerated versions of your true beliefs, designed to be passed off as humour.
I was reading this thread and just noticed something: I always know when Rick is joking and when he isn't, because I can "hear' him when I read his posts. Whereas everyone else, including you and Modge, seemed to take things the wrong way even when he didn't mean to be offensive. It's partly that his jokes can be rather heavy-handed and partly that he uses a kind of shorthand, thinking people will know what he's talking about when it may not be at all obvious. A typical example is the "grinning Somali gangs" remark. I knew what he meant by that because we've talked about the gang problem in Harrow, but I'm not surprised other people saw it as a racist remark. Same applies to a lot of the "Nazi" stuff he says. He likes bad taste jokes, what can I say.
By the way kovacs, I sometimes have the same problem with your posts. You have posted things in the past which I found offensive (the voyeurism stuff, links to naked women on sunbeds and the like) because I took them at face value. Then Rick pointed out that you were only joking.
Anyway,I'm not making apologies for him, just sharing my impressions. I think he just doesn't come across well on TMO (and neither do I. It seems to bring out the bitch in me). As a matter of fact, before meeting him in RL I never thought he was the kind of person I'd get on with, since my perception of him was the same as everyone else's at the time. It came as a real shock to me that he was a much nicer person in real life.
Although I do wish he'd stop mentioning the rats.
quote:
Originally posted by Gail:
You call that one link evidence for your claim of the existence of 'societies where the rape of tens of thousands of children is passed off as a ritual event' in Africa? Remind yourself not to be called to the Bar any time soon.
I thought the one link was sufficient to push the discussion on. Tens of thousands of little girls are raped in SA because of the influence of wicthdoctors. Those who commit the act argue it's a ritual thing, and the numbers are hardly insignificant. I would have liked to have continued that discussion.
quote:
Yes I find arguing with you frustrating - because you consistently ignore points/questions that are inconvenient. Because you repeatedly ignore the bigger picture in order to quibble over details - even over trivial questions such as whether you've denied trolling. Because there is never any development in an argument with you, it just goes over the same old ground time after time. I should be gracious, huh? What do you mean by gracious? See the Rick-tinted light, 'fess up 'it's a fair cop guvnor, I wuz wrong all along'?
You're being a bit unfair, especially given that I devote a fair amount of time in responding to posts. If I really had this habit of ignoring things, do you think I would be writing this right now? When I made the "gracious" remark, I meant that it would be nice for a chance to see a "I don't agree with you, but that's a fair comment". The Liberia thread is a case in point. I'm not expecting a "I was wrong all along" response. As if.
quote:
If this thread has a point, please to explain what the fuck it is? All it proves to me is that you don't like Ben and a lot of people don't like you. No great revelation there.
I guess not.
quote:
As to 'mud-slinging, name-calling and general boorishness', lol - can I say pot and kettle?
I never at any time suggested that this was a one-way thing.
quote:
Maybe it's because on the whole Kovacs has the good sense to stay out of political discussions with you?
We've discussed a few things in this thread, if you might have a looksie. The fact is that everyone notices when I say something that may slightly upset the liberal sensibilities of some people on this board. When I post something that might fall within the lines of TMO acceptability, it goes by ignored. Take a look at Cody Joe's "Racial Profiling" thread, for example. Had I said something with the slightest whiff of controversy, the thread would have generated 100 or so posts by now. Instead, it's well on the road to being stone dead.
quote:
For the second time in one post, I'm agreeing with you.
Time to break out the champagne then I suppose.
quote:
Oh, and this obsession with my relationship with my rats? You say you don't believe it literally (frankly I couldn't give a fuck), but you're awfully pleased with the whole idea aren't you? I assume so, since you can't help referring to it every other post.
Apart from directing the posts directly to you, the only other occasion I referred to this was when I was trying to give Moggiecookie a bit of background to the "nastiness" thing.
That's the last you'll hear about that particular subject, in any case.
quote:
Originally posted by nightowl(7.23pm):
Although I do wish he'd stop mentioning the rats.
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton (7.30pm):
That's the last you'll hear about that particular subject, in any case.
Wow.
Let's see if it works again: Rick, please empty the bin.
As for your question: no. If only because you'll have people start believing that I am anything but a sexist Nazee swine.
Bugger. This chate, non?
"So Saith A Monster!"
Readers! You won't believe this month's guest villain!
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
If she wished to make me persona non grata after the weekend, then that would have been justified enough. Not that I would have cared too greatly anyway, but that's beside the point.
OK, this isn't my fight and now I've stated my opinion many times, it seems stupid for me to pursue it as Gail can handle it herself.
quote:
As for the points you made:
I should acknowledge that I was listing these from memory. So if you pick up on inaccuracy, that's partly because I didn't actually scan the thread for them -- they were meant as examples of the way your "joke" comments sit very closely to your "sincere" comments, and the individual points I raise may not be strong in themselves. My point was that some were meant seriously, some as stylised-Nazi remarks, and that you make no distinction between them despite your frustration that people confuse the two.
quote:
...made jokes about negroes Not really. I referred to a spoof theory I mentioned in another thread. The "genetic predisposition" thing.
My point was that you used the word "negro", which is offensive to many people -- and that you used it "jokingly".
quote:
...described black youths as wearing tea cosies and funny clothes Well some of them do, don't they? What's particularly outrageous about saying this?
My point was that this "sincere" remark was very close on the heels of your "joking" remarks. I hope you see my point emerging now.
quote:
...painted a nightmarish picture of grinning Somalian gangsters Try speaking to some of the chaps who work the beat in Harrow on a Saturday night. Or check out some of the local news here. Again, nothing particularly controversial. Somali gangs hang around at the bus station at night. Fact.
Right, you see I wasn't asking whether this was true. I was saying that a statement you meant "sincerely" was in close proximity to comments you made in what you put forward as a "comical Nazi persona".
quote:
...claimed that your account of drinking a toast to Hitler was self-parody As if you could really think anything else. Come on, get real.
Again...parody sitting next to sincerity, which could quite easily cause confusion in many readers' minds as to when you're actually joking. In fact, I could believe that you'd do this, as I said: you agreed with my suggestion on here recently that Hitler was in some ways a "great leader", and you admire military skill and bravery in the German army of WW2, so it didn't seem such an outlandish idea.
quote:
...invited me round to watch the amusing and sinister ethnic people with binoculars A joke so glaringly obvious that I can only laugh at your bringing it up here.
I'm not saying I believe you meant it sincerely. (There may have been a moment of weightless panic when I wondered whether you really were going to carry out this plan.) I'm saying this joke was right next to things that you actually meant.
quote:
...made a crack about the gay problem being sorted out as part of the Final Solution. Read what I said, and then look at what I was replying to when I said it. And then do a bit of elementary history as well. June 1934? Final Solution? O dear.
Firstly, as I said, I didn't actually look back at the posts, and haven't read this comment of yours since yesterday, which is why I didn't remember the date you gave and so made a lazy guess. Secondly, it could be considered a bit rich for you to chastise me about not sharing your expertise about Nazi Germany. We all have our fields of specialism. Although you're right that if I had quoted 1934 and described it as the Final Solution, it would have been a silly mistake.
quote:
Fair enough. Quid pro quo though, Kovacs. Do you really consider Emma Watson "yummy", or is it just an on-the-boards persona? Because, like you with me, I find the two things hard to differentiate sometimes.
I'll answer you honestly. For the benefit of anyone who doesn't pick this up, I had to think for a moment who you meant here before realising that this is a reference to a comment I made about the actress behind Hermione Granger in Harry Potter.
I think you'll have to agree that I have commented about her no more than once or twice, and that it's not exactly a recurring theme in my posts.
If we found the thread, it would probably be clear that I didn't say she was "yummy". (Although this is just about possible.) The point of my comments, as I remember, was that I felt I could see she was destined, pretty soon, to be a sexy, glamourous actress, and was hemming and hawing over whether it was OK to notice the sexy potential in girls who were under the age of 16 -- that is, to appreciate the young woman they were clearly going to become. Self-indulgent, perhaps; dubious to some, perhaps, but not especially morally questionable in my opinion.
If I did make a remark about her being "yummy" or whatever, I can only imagine it was meant to be provocative and designed to incite a response. Sure, I could be pulled up about making comments I meant to be self-parody, or stirring, next to comments I meant to be sincere.
However, firstly I don't have some kind of "paedophile persona", which is always making lustful remarks about young actresses for a "joke" -- this is one, maybe two threads you're talking about -- and secondly I'm not now complaining that my joke persona is never distinguished from my sincere one.
quote:
Originally posted by nightowl:
By the way kovacs, I sometimes have the same problem with your posts. You have posted things in the past which I found offensive (the voyeurism stuff, links to naked women on sunbeds and the like) because I took them at face value. Then Rick pointed out that you were only joking.
I take your point, and the same could be said of Ben -- probably more so than me. I remember saying quite recently, and I'll give you this ammo against me for free, that Modge wanted to throw out my swivel chair because it was encrusted with ejaculation. Hardly in keeping with some of my other moralistic comments.
I don't know how I get away with it sometimes, but anyway my point stands that I'm not here complaining "everyone judges me on my joke posts, not my sincere ones."
Also, my joke posts are based on truth. They are exaggerated versions of a genuine part of me, which isn't the entire me but is certainly there rather than something totally invented. I'm admitting that, and I think that most "joke" personae traits are based on something inherent in the real life person.
quote:
Originally posted by moggycookie:
Ben does this when forced into a corner or when he can't think of anything better/more to say.
This is making out that one occasion when I got exasperated is something I make a regular habit of. The night in question I'd been enjoying a session of sparring with an articulate newbie (Cody) only to have Rick/Snorton barge in with a typically ignorant, unfunny post the only purpose of which was to have a go at me.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Nobody seems to have picked up on the point that the reason it's so hard to distinguish between Rick-being-serious and Rick-only-joking is that Rick's jokes aren't funny. They are nonstarters, non sequiturs, auto-aborting mishaps. Further, his humourlessness hobbles his attempts to be serious - how on earth can you expect to make others think when you can't even make them laugh?
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: ben ]
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Also, my joke posts are based on truth. They are exaggerated versions of a genuine part of me, which isn't the entire me but is certainly there rather than something totally invented. I'm admitting that, and I think that most "joke" personae traits are based on something inherent in the real life person.
So what you are saying is there is dried semen on your swivel chair? Disgusting.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:
Stuff
OK. I see where you are coming from. And I think Nightowl explained why this is the case fairly well. I think we should meet up for dinner and drinks sometime soon so you don't forget what I'm really like.
quote:
If I did make a remark about her being "yummy" or whatever, I can only imagine it was meant to be provocative and designed to incite a response. Sure, I could be pulled up about making comments I meant to be self-parody, or stirring, next to comments I meant to be sincere.However, firstly I don't have some kind of "paedophile persona", which is always making lustful remarks about young actresses for a "joke" -- this is one, maybe two threads you're talking about -- and secondly I'm not now complaining that my joke persona is never distinguished from my sincere one.
I am still not convinced. I sometimes have this feeling that you have this desire to be a modern-day Lewis Carroll. In more ways than one.
quote:
Originally posted by ben:
This is making out that one occasion when I got exasperated is something I make a regular habit of. The night in question I'd been enjoying a session of sparring with an articulate newbie (Cody) only to have Rick/Snorton barge in with a typically ignorant, unfunny post the only purpose of which was to have a go at me.
I can only apologise for this. It kicked off an insane 48 hours, that's for sure.
quote:
Nobody seems to have picked up on the point that the reason it's so hard to distinguish between Rick-being-serious and Rick-only-joking is that Rick's jokes aren't funny. They are nonstarters, non sequiturs, auto-aborting mishaps. Further, his humourlessness hobbles his attempts to be serious - how on earth can you expect to make others think when you can't even make them laugh?
The fact that "nobody seems to have picked up on the point that..." is simply because "the point that..." is your personal opinion. To which you are entitled. If you think everything that I write is unfunny, fine. What I object to is your ceaseless attempts to pass off what are essentially your personal feelings as some sort of TMO gospel.
[ 08 September 2003: Message edited by: Samuelnorton ]
quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
So what you are saying is there is dried semen on your swivel chair? Disgusting
I don't know -- I threw it out.
quote:
I am still not convinced. I sometimes have this feeling that you have this desire to be a modern-day Lewis Carroll. In more ways than one.
Quid pro quo, as you say -- I think your Nazi persona is a version of your genuine beliefs, a seaside stand-up of Mr Hitler you can stick your face through and shout "Heil", then duck out from and claim it was all just messing. So you're not convinced, and neither am I; we would have to live with that.
Big problems with your "Lewis Carroll" theory, which you shouldn't really have advanced after your "do some elementary History" jibe. It's entirely in debate whether he even found girl children attractive, and to say he acted sexually on any kind of fascination with children is a pretty inexpert view with no evidence behind it. If that's one of the "ways" you're confused about me emulating, I can only guess at the others -- that I want to be a pioneering photographer? That I want to write children's fiction? I can't really see why you're so touchingly about this supposed career path of mine.
If you really think I'm some kind of repressed paedophile, I think you should say so outright, and we can have an interesting discussion about it.
The problem arises when the nature of a joke, either by design, or by accident, not only offends people, but is a direct play on those sensibilities that everyone has. It's going further than merely making a humourous statement, it's taking something personal, making light of it, and turning it into something that is not subject to the amusement of others, but simply amusing to the person who has written it, i.e. Snort.
On another level, Snorts posts all seem to (and I'm sorry if this is a little harsh) read in a high pitched monotone. This complete lack of intonation, coupled with an unwavering textbook language style, give the impression that Snort is posting everything in the same light - not necessaraly a nice one.
We could assume that he is serious about everything. That's a thought that's perhaps too nasty to even contemplate. Or we could assume that everything that Snort says is a joke. This would make him, essentially, a troll.
I don't particularly like either of these assumptions. I, like Kovacs, feel that Snorts general persona is one that is used deliberately, to protect views that Snorton either holds, or finds very attractive, but realises can't be considered socially acceptable.
Still, I can't really get my head round this. My thinking really, is that Snorton has some view that he realises aren't necessaraly socially acceptable. He realises that he is somewhat bigoted. Like the homosexual who isn't terribly happy with the social implications of being gay, but camps it up in drag as a means of escapism, and to test out responses from others. It's a way of finding out how people will react to the 'real' you, but using extreme examples to amplify the reaction. In this way, if someone reacts badly, you can probably guage how much better their reaction might be to your real views.
This explains why it's not very easy to work Snorton into a rage. Your reactions aren't bothering him because you're not really reacting to him, you're reacting to what he would be like if his views were more extreme. He expects it, and has, over time, possibly even come to enjoy it.
It's a sad thing but really, I think it's time to realise that, no matter how long Rick has been here, he probably has little or no ties with people on the boards in the way that most of us have developed and, at the end of the day, doesn't really give much of a fuck what most of us say anyway.
carry on...