posted
Hello lovely TMO. You may have noticed, although probably not, that I've been away for a few weeks. Reason being is that I have a new boss and he's making me work so hard that I've literally not had time to blow my nose let alone fart about on t'internet. By the time I finally crawl home at night the very last thing I want to do is switch on a computer. But, at last I have a quiet[ish] 10 minutes.
My boss has other business interests apart from the business that I work for. He imports art from Haiti and sells it all over the world. He was also responsible for a stage show last year all about voodoo. He visits Haiti fairly frequently and was telling me all about their voodoo culture. It appears that about 90% of the population over there claim to be posessed and inhabited by spirits. Most of the paintings that he has have been painted by people whilst in a posessed state.
At first, being me, I was very sceptical of this until he told me some of the stories of people writing or speaking whilst posessed and how they've managed to trace what they've been saying/writing to ancient forms of Egyptian amongst other things. These people are among the poorest most uneducated in the world, so there's no way they could have looked it up or learnt it and then had a bit of a laugh pretending they were posessed.
I asked the fella why it is that so many people in Haiti are posessed and he reckons that because they have basically escaped development they have stayed at their most basic. No worries about the office, what clothes to wear, can I have a new tv, what's Mrs Jones up the road saying about me etc so that they have kept the channels to "magic" and voodoo and spirits open. For us, that part of the mind has been glossed over so much by other elements in our lives that it's no longer receptive.
I'm finding it all pretty fascinating intend to read up on it, but:
Do you think that it's for real? That people can be posessed by the spirits of the dead? Or is it just a load of old tripe? Do we all the ability deep down and it's been lost over years of neglect?
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posted
It is real. Because, it's a mixture of hysteria, madd partee skillz and oral tradition. You should read The Drum and the Hoe. Everyone should. I'm gonna retire to Haiti.
posted
This was one of the things the boss was explaining to me though - how the outside world sees it all as this black magic, zombie kind of thing, when actually it's mostly very spiritual in a positive way.
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I asked the fella why it is that so many people in Haiti are posessed and he reckons that because they have basically escaped development they have stayed at their most basic. No worries about the office, what clothes to wear, can I have a new tv, what's Mrs Jones up the road saying about me etc so that they have kept the channels to "magic" and voodoo and spirits open. For us, that part of the mind has been glossed over so much by other elements in our lives that it's no longer receptive.
Ahem, isn't that rather like a happy, undeveloped native brain sort of argument if you read it back to yourself? It's all a bit suspect in a dark continent sort of way if you ask me.
I've not read The Drum and The Hoe myself, but I have read the odd bit about medieval witchcraft in Europe (including England) and the general consensus seems to be that mass hysteria and victimisation was involved. Rather than a higher state of consciousness on the part of the great pitchfork-wielding unwashed.
quote:Originally posted by saltrock: Do you think that it's for real? That people can be posessed by the spirits of the dead? Or is it just a load of old tripe? Do we all the ability deep down and it's been lost over years of neglect?
People believed largely in acestralism long before theism existed. The idea that you are guided by the spirits or could summon them to ask for advice is ancient. There are theories that suggest that we hold memories of past lives handed down to us that may be locked away in the parts of the brain we do not use. There are some who believe that they have access to their previous ancestral experiences via meditation.
Here's a classic confusion in regards to Vodun:
quote:
the actual religion, Vodun practiced in Benin, Dominican Republic, Ghana, Haiti, Togo and various centers in the US - largely where Haitian refuges have settled.
an evil, imaginary religion, which we will call Voodoo. It has been created for Hollywood movies, complete with "voodoo dolls", violence, bizarre rituals, etc. It does not exist in reality, except in the minds of most non-Voduns.
quote:Originally posted by saltrock: For us, that part of the mind has been glossed over so much by other elements in our lives that it's no longer receptive.
I believe this to be the case, yes. Many would say that this is a good thing, that we've now got useful and pragmatic ways of spending our "life" and good riddance to all that mumbo jumbo. But anyone who's had any sort of spiritual experience will know what a stunning feeling it is and wish they could go there more often.
Of course, it can be a bit dangerous to have an unquestioning belief in the next world and reincarnation. It's possible to become indifferent to life and death, as happened many times in the past, mass sacrifices and all that unpleasantness.
The funny thing would be if it all turns out to be true though. I'm quite looking forward to finding out actually, though I hope to hang around here for a bit longer as there's a few places I'd like to visit in this world first.
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quote:Originally posted by OJ: Ahem, isn't that rather like a happy, undeveloped native brain sort of argument if you read it back to yourself? It's all a bit suspect in a dark continent sort of way if you ask me.
Not if you are using it to account for a way of thinking. In spirituality, it would be considered to be 'an unfettered mind'
quote:Originally posted by OJ: Ahem, isn't that rather like a happy, undeveloped native brain sort of argument if you read it back to yourself? It's all a bit suspect in a dark continent sort of way if you ask me.
Not if you are using it to account for a way of thinking. In spirituality, it would be considered to be 'an unfettered mind'
Thanks, that's kind of what I meant rather than trying to paint them as a bunch of native simpletons.
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posted
I'm not being argumentative for the sake of...
But what's the difference between the concept of an "unfettered mind" and a simpleton, whether native or otherwise?
Is this the same sort of effect that could be claimed for experimentation with LSD, or is it something more fundamental to those whose minds haven't been meddled with?
You may be feeling the waves of cynicism coming at you through the ether right now.... but isn't this just barefoot romanticism?
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quote:Originally posted by OJ: But what's the difference between the concept of an "unfettered mind" and a simpleton, whether native or otherwise?
Because it's their lifestyle that is simple, not their brains. That's what I'm implying. An 'unfettered mind' is one without distraction like noise pollution or work stress.
grant
when you're surrounded and outnumbered, there's only one way out.
posted
Well, Haitians (and, for that matter, Cuban santeros/babalawos) in Miami also do this, and they've got plenty of modern distractions.
One interesting book I've read on this specific aspect of the whole Yoruba religious shebang is The Crisis of Possession in Voodoo, written in 1946 by Louis Mars.
The first part of that paper I find interesting is the establishment approach to a non-normal mental state: either it's a sickness, or else it doesn't exist.
quote:Some anthropologists began to suggest that two different phenomena may be at work. Perhaps voluntary possession was a form of role-playing, whereas involuntary possession was a form of mental illness, or at least a person choosing a role which was seen as destructive and inappropriate. In all these cases, possession was seen as a different kind of behavior , but the mental state of the person was seen to be the same. (Mars 1975:12)
Anthropologists attempted to deal with possession in Haiti in precisely this way. Any change in mental state had to be pathological, but they didn't want to pathologize Voodoo, so they assumed there was no change in mental state. But this approach ran into several problems. If what was taking place was sacred drama, one would expect that there would be trained ritual specialists who would be "coached" in their roles. However, while people were frequently "trained" by the houngan to control their possessions (they would "graduate" from hounsi bossal or a novice who could not control his loa to a hounsi canzo , or initiate, who could), not everyone asked for or received this training, and there were many people who became possessed once or several times before receiving it, while others became possessed at ceremonies without ever having it. Anthropologists looked for 'ritual specialists' in possession (as was the case with Western 'spirit mediums') and could not find them. (Bourgignon 1978: 85)
grant
when you're surrounded and outnumbered, there's only one way out.
posted
Ha! The idyllic life of the simple Haitian peasants!
Dig this conclusion:
quote:If I have demonstrated that the dissociative process involved in Voodoo is not pathological, and that the mechanisms by which it occurs are simply byproducts of the way the brain 'normally' works, this still does not answer the question of why Haitian peasants volunteer to be possessed. There are many social explanations that have been offered by anthropologists: an increase in social status for women and others through participation in the central rituals of community; an ability to "act out" things that would otherwise be 'taboo' culturally or forbidden to their position; the immense "social pressure" for Haitians to honor their family loa , and the rewards they derive thereby; a form of theater to lift their hearts from an otherwise dreary existence. These explanations do not consider the possibility that possession is an actual alteration in the person's psychic state, and that certain psychological benefits might accrue. From Metraux's time onward, some anthropologists tried to see Voodoo possession less as a folk sickness and more as a form of folk therapy itself - specifically, psychotherapy. Sargant traveled to Haiti, and he concluded that possession might trigger an abreaction in the person being possessed. Considering the many traumas which one faces in Haitian life, it is likely they would need a great deal of abreactive therapy.
Followed quickly by...
quote:The houngan can manipulate the suggestible state of the possessed devotee for ill or good. He can get the devotee to change behaviors which are destructive to his health (hypnosis is frequently used to cure addictions and bad habits.) He can either seek to rid the person of oppressive beliefs that they hold in a normal state of awareness ("Francois Duvalier is your friend") or instill oppressive beliefs ("Damballah desires for you to be poor"). This is not the place to debate the social function of the Voodoo religion in Haitian politics and society. But I am arguing that possession is a state in which political and other beliefs become more malleable than they normally are. It is only an instrument, just as Sargant notes various forms of religious enthusiasm and exaltation are in other religions; the person can be transformed by it for the worse or for the better..
quote:After death, this parasite is able to restart the heart of its victim for up to two hours after the initial demise of the person where the individual behaves in extremely violent ways from what is believed to be a combination of brain damage and a chemical released into blood during “resurrection.”
Cambodian officials say that the outbreak has been contained and the public has no need to worry.
"Them boahs don't move all that fast," said General Ary Serey, "and you gots ta aim fer the haid."
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