quote:Originally posted by Dr. Benway: I think sometimes that hiring a cleaner would be alright in practise, you know, tidy place, but then in principle, the idea of playing somebody to clean up after me... it's just not good.
An interesting concept. You could start off all 'hey sister, I don't see you around here often' and go on about what you do for your job and how thrilling and exciting it is. Throw in some shit about loving hang-gliding, wind-surfing, wrestling and rugby. Then you could be all like "So what do you do? Cleaner eh?" Get really close and nibble on her ear and whisper "If you come over to my place tonight, I've got something I'd like you to polish. The key will be under the mat" writing your address on a matchbook from the bar. Then when she gets there, there's a bucket and mop in the hallway and a post-it note on the bedroom door saying 'sorry about the skids in the pants, last nights curry was a doozy'
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I'm also such a masochistic self-pitying cocksniffer that without some kind of boring endless toil waiting for me at home, I'd go out of my mind with contentment.
quote:Originally posted by dang65: We don't take foreign holidays anyway, and we could switch to budget food shopping without too much impact. There's always corners to cut.
If I were a parent, I'm not sure I'd want to feed my kid 'budget food' in order to afford a private education for it. They'd probably pick up a taste for it, and get ostracized by their peers for requesting value sausage and beans instead of the fish eggs and goose liver that's on offer.
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If it's anything like my public school, feeding minidang budget chips and sausages at home will mean there'll be no homesickness-inducing change in diet once he gets to school.
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: At university she was all Doc Martens and big skirts, handing out leaflets of unethical companies, really prepared to suffer for her social views: she even listened to The Levellers.
One of my friends was like this too. She used to accuse me of being a heartless capitalist bastard when I told her she'd be working in the city and looking to buy a place in the country when she got to 30. When she spent a good half an hour at a dinner party in her Chelsea flat last year talking about the problems she had getting a decent cleaner, who turned up every week and could "at least speak English"...
Well, the irony was sweet. As was the Sauternes!
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quote:Originally posted by Louche: I'd never send my kids to a private school, though.
Can you tell us why this is? Political reasons? Matter of taste? Not wanting them to turn out as *****?
As I said before, I'm looking at sending my boy to a public school because I think the school suits him and his character far more than the comprehensive would. I don't think it will make a lot of difference to his qualifications, and I can't see him turning into a city banker or something just because he goes to public school.
What does worry me a bit is that I never seem to meet anyone I like who supports public schools, in real life or on the web. This is odd, because a lot of people I like went to public school, or at least went through 6th Form and university, which is probably where the real future character is formed.
As for the budget food, I just mean that we'd switch to looking for bargains and cheaper shops and that, not that we'd be eating turkey twizzlers every night.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: What does worry me a bit is that I never seem to meet anyone I like who supports public schools, in real life or on the web.
You have to bear in mind that the last time I met Benway he seemed to be massively surprised I wasn't a giant cockend. Correlating nicely with the first time I met him, when he went through the same process as well.
I was at least a year into uni before I realised that some of these perfectly nice people I'd been chatting to (and in some cases even shagging!) had been to comps, and they hadn't once tried to knife me or sell me drugs.
So stereotypes go both ways... I blame Grange Hill, which had an aura of danger and hard documentary fact after my parents banned me from watching it.
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: For pity's sake don't base your child's future on what some people from the internet said. Jesus Christ.
Well, no, I'm blatantly not going to do that. In these sort of cases, I just like to make sure that no one's got an argument that I actually agree with.
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I probably don't have a leg to stand on, not being a parent, and knowing nothing about your family, but is it quite right to leave the boys' education up to what they happen to fancy at the time? If they can't be arsed doing the entrance exam to the private school, well 'they had the opportunity'. Isn't it a bit more important than that? Shouldn't you be telling them what to do so they have someone to blame in later life?
My (younger) brother got a scholarship to a public school, while I languished in a sink comprehensive where each day was a living hell. No resentment in our family, oh no.
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Maybe it just doesn't make any difference. My parents made sure my sister and I had precisely the same opportunities and she turned out succesful whereas I flop around uselessly chasing unrealistic dreams, getting sacked and spending all my spare time wanking to internet porn.
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quote:Originally posted by herbs: I probably don't have a leg to stand on, not being a parent, and knowing nothing about your family, but is it quite right to leave the boys' education up to what they happen to fancy at the time? If they can't be arsed doing the entrance exam to the private school, well 'they had the opportunity'. Isn't it a bit more important than that? Shouldn't you be telling them what to do so they have someone to blame in later life?
How would you play it then? Out of interest.
What I mean is, they get to 11 and finish primary school and then you get this huge battle to get them into a secondary school which will set them up pretty much for life (in theory). This is why people move house to get into the right catchment area and so on. There is a huge difference between different state schools, and some of them can really drag a good kid down. (A lot of them are very good of course; I'm not down on state education.)
You also have the opportunity at this time to get them into a public school if they can get through the entrance exams. Unless they're magically gifted then this takes a lot of work from the child as well, especially if they haven't been to an independent prep school.
So, yeah, it's true that they might not be arsed, but as a parent I just feel that I have to give them the opportunity. I don't mean that we'll abandon them to their fate if the fail. They still get all the support they want, obviously. My eldest son got extra maths tuition before his GCSE and ended up with an A and a place on a good college course.
It's pretty hard work knowing what to do really, and there are many different approaches, from hothousing through prep school to not giving a toss at all. I think we've gone somewhere down the middle really, and tried not to put pressure on them, just point out that this is a time to take opportunities.
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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I say I wouldn't send my child to a public school, but you know, is all just words. Especially as I have no intention of ever having said child which could be sent off to public school. My reasoning doesn't exactly fit with your dilemma, though. My reasoning is that there are perfectly good and occasionally outstanding state schools out there, so why spend the money?
Plus I'm prejudiced with a prejudice based on a queasy mix of envy and loathing.
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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
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My mother sent my younger brother to private school when he was a teenager, though I'd always been to state schools of various sorts, and I don't really resent that he got the paid-for education. I sort of recognised that his comp was turning him into a streetcorner wanker type thug. Or possibly leaving him with no opportunities other than those offered by streetcorner wankerishness. However he's now a Cityboy who works for a hedge fund and has a useless wife, and he turned out to be wanker anyway. But a better-paid one.
Also, my mother made me choose my school when I was 11 and I picked the answer I knew she wanted, which was to go to the single-sex one. I loathed it and was miserable every schoolday-second of my life for four years. And I do resent that she made me make the decision, because then I had to feel like I did it to myself without really having had enough information to base the decision on.
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We've just signed Beckett up for the International School which we have to pay for instead of sending him to standard Dutch school, mostly because I feel and Femke agrees that the Dutch school system is pretty retarded and far too restrictive.
But I don't think of it as private school, just an alternative to the domestic system.
We did go and see an 'American' school with him the other week, and for 19,000 Euros a year you could go to a school where you never have to interact with Dutch culture at all, and that was seen as a plus point by the school.
quote:Originally posted by Octavia: Also, my mother made me choose my school when I was 11 and I picked the answer I knew she wanted, which was to go to the single-sex one. I loathed it and was miserable every schoolday-second of my life for four years. And I do resent that she made me make the decision, because then I had to feel like I did it to myself without really having had enough information to base the decision on.
Oh great! Is this how it works? See, I was sent to public school when I was 11, and hated it, and wish I'd had the choice. I then moved to comprehensive, and had to go through the hassle of being the new boy.
I think we've given him plenty of information, and I don't think there's an answer he knows we want to hear, because either way is fine by us. But that may just be adding to the confusion.
It's interesting that a couple of people have said that giving a choice may be a bad idea. It's always seemed quite important to me, but I suppose I can see that there might be pitfalls.
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I'll throw a spanner in the works and announce that I'm seriously considering moving back to the States for 2ndary school. The elementary my girls are at is shit hot and won loads of awards last year for being a good school in London.
Problem is, once they get out elementary my only real option is Holland Park and that's a cess pit. I'm not posh/rich enough to send my kids to private (or public, I never know the difference with Brit schools) school. Also, I am a firm believer that kids should interact with other kids from different backgrounds to help mould their futures and prepare them for the big bad world. I personally think that kids who are stuck in dead-end schools or who are moneyed enough to be sent to private (public?) schools only learn how to interact with people in their same ....... Class is too strong a word.... same circumstances. A poor kid, brought up poor with other poor peers with poor role models, won't often try to pull themselves up thinking that this is their lot in life. A rich kid, brought up with other rich kids blah blah, just wants to be rich and blanks out the less fortunate.
*caveat before ringo or thorn go into conniptions* this is my personal view, yes I know there are those that go to private (public?) school and come out like Gandhi... and poor kids grow up to be Bill Gates... I'm just saying, from my personal experiences, this is how I feel. Ok?
quote:Originally posted by Octavia: ... single-sex one. I loathed it and was miserable every schoolday-second of my life for four years.
<kovacs> Yeah, but... Was there lots of 'experimenting' in the dorms? In catholic school girl uniforms? </kovacs>
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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
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They were Catholic schoolgirl uniforms, yes. There were nuns and everything. And we were obsessed with sex. But not with each other. Sorry.
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Octavia
I hate Valentine's Day. Stupid commercialised crap
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: Oh great! Is this how it works? See, I was sent to public school when I was 11, and hated it, and wish I'd had the choice. I then moved to comprehensive, and had to go through the hassle of being the new boy.
I think it works out that if you're the parent, you get to be wrong either way.
quote:Originally posted by sabian: *caveat before ringo or thorn go into conniptions*
I don’t mind what you do to be honest. Your kids, your choice. I imagine that if a lot of people had that option, they’d give it some consideration too. But I can’t really give a useful opinion of my own since I don’t have kids and my most recent experience of secondary education is now a decade behind me so I’m sure it’s no longer relevant to anyone making decisions these days.
For what it’s worth I do believe that parents should always do what they can to give kids the best possible opportunity in life, which I think in a lot of instances is prevented by the stubborn pride of the parents. The ole “if it was good enough for me, it’s good enough for you” attitude which causes parents to make uninformed decisions based on vague and unsubstantiated nostalgia or a sense of class obligation. If you know that a certain path is going to lead to the best opportunities for your kid to achieve their potential, and you are able to facilitate that, then why not?
But of course social development is just as important, if not more so, than academic achievement. There’s something to be said for home schooling, at least in terms of creating an environment which is conducive to good academic success. But if the cost of this is that the kid doesn’t have the opportunity to interact with other kids socially, then that’s a massive chunk of their education lost.
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Either that or they become anti-establishment culture terrorists. That's another point to consider. If your child has a happy and productive school life he'll probably grow up to be something relatively mundane, like an accountant, or marketeer or - worst case scenario - an architect. If he's repressed, ignored and battered there's a chance he'll grow up to be a ferociously driven rockstar, film-maker or novelist.
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I don't get what's so objectionable about having a cleaner. Why is it so different to paying someone to make you a sandwich when you could easily make your own? Is it equally bad to have a gardener?
I don't have one as I have more spare time than spare money, but if I'm ever in a position to then maybe I shall. It's not likely that I'll be leaving her skiddy toilet pans and old pants to deal with, surely it's mostly a case of mopping and dusting?
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I'd consider a cleaner, I think. Not now you know, but we've started to grow plants that will need watering everyday and I quite like the idea of paying a few bob to come back to a dustless flat and find my flowers aren't dead as fuck. I mean, I've been a cleaner. Swings and roundabouts?
quote:Originally posted by Pepper: I don't get what's so objectionable about having a cleaner. Why is it so different to paying someone to make you a sandwich when you could easily make your own? Is it equally bad to have a gardener?
It's literally the worst thing you can do to another human being and in terms of eroding your own soul. That's not my opinion either - it's a sociological fact. According to the Goldberg scale of Evil, created in Berlin in 1974 and providing the accepted reference point for measuring human wrongdoing based on the resulting personal, mental and society-wide fall out of a particular deed, hiring a cleaner rates as a 17.4. According to the waypoints on the scale, if you meet an East European woman it's actually more evil to make her clean your flat than it is to kill her baby and then make her eat it, simply because of the wider social implications.
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Crikey Thorn, those are quite sobering facts. Thank you for bringing them to my attention.
We have an office cleaner here at work, ought I to try to get her sacked? She's black (african) and not eastern european if that makes a difference.
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I'd recommend private school Dang, life was pretty ace. Even if we were moulded into fascist h8ers.
When we move into our new place we are going to get a cleaner, though Nightowl is probably going to conduct the interviews and deliberately pick an ugly one that does the job well rather than allow me to do an "Oskar Schindler" and pick the best-looking one.
It would be nice to have our own Slavic Untermensch cleaning out the toilets and doing the menial jobs we hate.
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i have a cleaner. i see nothing wrong in that. my flatmates and i hate cleaning. so we pay someone else to do it. it's a service. everyone's happy.
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I can't bring myself to get a cleaner. Paying someone to scrub my shit off the toilet because I can't be arsed seems inherently wrong. "I say, poor person, come here and tidy up after me. I can't be arsed." I'm not sure how well the "well, she's being paid" argument holds up, either. Just because people are being paid to do something, doesn't make it OK. See also back alley blowjobs.
Dang, I had another thought re your son and why I'm not sure it's best leaving the choice to him. At 11 your priorities are 1 Being with your friends 2 Having fun 3 Not standing out from said friends Meaning he'll probably pick going to the local comp with his friends. Which is fine, but you can't then beat him round the head with his 'missed opportunities' when he's older. He doesn't really have the right sort of mind to make big decisions like that.
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Plus if he goes to a fee-paying school he'll acquire that amazing arrogant self-confidence that they all get, which means they sail through life with a good job and pots of money, despite being emotionally retarded, having no grasp of the real world and talking like a twat.
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i read a thing the other day that said most kids' educational achievements are governed less by whether they go to state or comprehensive school and more by how involved and interested their parents are in their education. so wherever you send your boy he will probably be fine, dang. i resent my mother a great deal for many many things, my private education included, but i cant tell you how much more i would hate her now if she hadnt been able to afford petit filous for my lunchbox.
i am not sending my children to school at all. if i have children, which i probably wont, because james lovelock says we only have twenty years before gaia reaches her final death throes and i think it would be cruel to pup one out in the knowledge that their adolescence would be something like something out of the fucking terminator films, but if i should give birth it will be in a yurt, and i will read my children bible stories and clothe them in sacking so that they are ready for the endtimes. really all childern need nowadays is to know in their hearts the reality of the love of christ and how to install a septic tank by the light of a windup torch.
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