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Is there anyone here that's passionately in favour of ID Cards in the UK? I just want to run through a couple of points and try to work out if there is a single rational arguement for introducing them, or even for meekly accepting them without putting up the biggest civil protest this country's ever seen. Anyone?
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If they tie them in with Nectar points, they can count me in.
Seriously, I really, really can't see the point of them other than to make headlines and give the impression that the Govt is doing something about immigration and terrorism. Waste of time, and if they think I'm paying for it, they can fuck right off.
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I would not say I am passionately in favour of these new cards but I can see certain benifits.
Over the roads from where my mum lives is this pikey scumster complete with pit bull and bruised girlfriend. To make a bit of extra money hes sells a few pills and hash to the kids in the area. Also he makes his money by signing on under two different names and he also get disabilty benefit.
It pisses me off when I drive past the job centre to find a beamer with hazard lights obstructing the road while the owner pops in to receive his weekly earnings.
Would not the introduction of these cards make it harder for people to fake being someone else?
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quote:Originally posted by charrudeboi: Would not the introduction of these cards make it harder for people to fake being someone else?
It's illegal to download copyrighted MP3s and pirate software. In order to make it harder for people to download copyrighted MP3s and pirate software, should we perhaps all submit to regular PC inspections by specially trained Dixons staff?
It's illegal to beat children or to physically abuse partners. In order to make it harder for people to beat children or to physically abuse partners, should we perhaps all submit to regular physical inspections by specially trained social workers?
I need better examples, but the concept is there: We are all to be forced to prove our innocence first rather than be automatically treated as innocent whilst understanding that there are criminals in all levels of society (benefit fraud? try major corporate money laundering, organised crime, misuse of funds and allowances). Those criminals are already outside of the law and should be tracked down, but don't treat the rest of the population as the usual suspects.
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I believe Sabian is in favour of them as it would make it easier for him join his local Blockbusters or something.
I thought they were going to stop all crime, especially terrorism, and prevent all illegal immigrants from ever entering, just like they have in other countries.
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quote:Originally posted by mart: Oh do you mean that if you can't produce ID upon demand then you're treated as a crim.
Another example of assumption of guilt is the Cumbria Youth Curfew. The plod can already arrest any youths are causing any trouble, but now they've decided it's easier just to consider the whole lot as trouble makers, therefore guaranteeing that they will covered. If they try and introduce that round where I live I'll force my kids to wander the street all fucking night in protest.
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I think everyone should volunteer a DNA sample into a global database. Anyone who doesn't comply gets blasted into outer space.
Oh-oh-oh... and we could all have grenades implanted in our foreheads and if our DNA was ever discovered at the scene of a crime we could have our heads blown off by remote control!
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Also, I notice a lot of politicians are mumbling about, "Well, the US is starting to insist on biometric data on passports anyway, so we have to do it." WTF? The US insists on the right to carry guns. Do we all have the right to carry them then? China insists you only have one child each. Better not try for any more kids then, eh?
What happened to Britain standing up to other countries and saying, nah, our citizens aren't getting involved in that shit. You still want to do business with us? Well fuck off with your biometric bollocks then.
And we haven't even started on the bureaucratic incompetance angle yet. I took my eldest son to the hospital yesterday coz he's got some horrible bone growth thing on his foot. They'd never heard of him. But we have a letter here, look. Nope. Have you got any Patrick's on the list today? There's some bloke here called "Patrick Thomas", yeah. Thomas being his middle name. Oh yeeeeeaaah! Cor, what about that eh?
Every time we try to get documents, passports, bank accounts, whatever sorted out there is a cock up. Guaranteed. What possible chance is there of this ID Card scheme and associated database being even fractionally accurate and up to date at any one time?
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Dang, I agree with you about the bureaucratic incompetance and find it strange that the govt. are going to put themselves into a position of managing another cock up.
I work with children for a voluntary organisation at weekends and as such require a police check. I completed the form five months ago and the check has not been done. Again, a scheme had been launched with no thought to the logistics of it. The result is that managers of organisations where adults work with vulnerable groups have to either close down or run with unchecked staff, which defeats the point of the scheme in the first place.
I would also say that it makes me laugh that this cabinet thinks that an ID card will defeat terrorism and at the same time support Bush/Sharon policies which breed the buggers. Who needs an ethical foreign policy when you've got ID cards?
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I've been fairly intensely reading newsgroups, bulletin boards and discussion forums on this issue for about two weeks now and all I've seen is an overwhelming weight of opinion either passionately against ID Cards, for human rights, freedom and privacy reasons, or rationally against them due to ongoing experience of bureaucratic incompetence and public money wasting in this country.
I'm confused, even as a cynic, as to why this balance of opinion doesn't seem to be appearing in the media. Maybe I haven't read enough letters pages recently, I dunno, but there seems to be complete apathy about the issue away from the web community, perhaps because of the type of people that use the web being the type of people that think about their rights and their status in society??
Even Question Time last night only got onto the subject right at the end and kind of bimbled around the issue, generally agreeing that ID Cards probably aren't all that good really but, you know, we'll see how it goes I suppose. Snap out of it! The Lib Dems have a pretty good 10 points against thing, but when did they last manage to get their policies across to anyone?
I guess it'll happen like in Australia where the majority were in favour of cards and then slowly a few points against started to get heard and it just snowballed till there was a huge majority against and the whole thing had to be scrapped. Let's just hope that happens sooner rather than later.
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Most people will be, like, "ID cards? Leave me alone, I'm watching Corrie." Then just before they get introduced all the anti bods will get aerated and the people will go "If you haven't done anything wrong you’ve got nothing to worry about.” Then the govt. will royally fuck everything up and the people will be all "Well, obviously. Cuh. Whos stoopid idead was that?" And it'll be too late cos' they'll all be dead. *****.
quote:Originally posted by dang65: What happened to Britain standing up to other countries and saying, nah, our citizens aren't getting involved in that shit.
We can only stand up to STINKY WEIRDO EUROPEAN countries that want to take our lovely pounds away.
I learnt recently that NZ is about the only country that has refused to allow US (or any) nuclear subs in its waters in compliance with its "keep NZ a nice clean green pretty place" manifesto. Apparently the US got quite arsey about it and did its usual muttered threats about trade embargos, but the PM stood her ground, with the backing of the populace. It would be nice to see something like that happening in the UK.
The worst pro-ID card argument I've heard is a Robert Kilroy-Silk-esque one where the debator says triumphantly, "how can you refuse to carry one, if the usage of them SAVES ONE HUMAN LIFE FROM TERRORISTS!"
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I look forward to the fiasco which will ensue when they are sent through her maj's royal mail. According to Dispatches last night, there's already a roaring trade among sorting staff for credit cards, passports and driving licences, so identity cards should add to the melee.
Any terrorist worth his/her salt, capable of orchestrating a masterly operation like 9/11, is hardly going to be fazed by having to forge an identity card.
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The problem will be is that the media are filling the papers and airwaves with enough scare stories to make people believe that it will be too much of a risk NOT to have ID cards.
On one level, people may see them as pointless but as soon as the 'prevention of terrorism/island flooding with illegal immigrants' propaganda machine starts revving up,the argument for ID cards will become more and more extreme (As in the 'one human life' argument) and the argument against, no matter how well thought out or presented, will sound weaker.
The same method was used prior to the invasion of Iraq: Sadaam is Hitler and being wrong about invasion is better than being wrong about doing nothing.
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But at least there was a vested interest in the powers that be invading Iraq. I don't quite know what the motivation is behind getting ID cards, other than to be seen to be 'doing something' about terrorism. It's bound to a) go wrong and b) not make a dent on immigration or terrorism, and then they'll just look silly. But then again, as Maski says, we'll be dead by then.
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It is so stupid, but this is what you get for pandering to the press. It is so funny is when Governments display how little imagination they actually have in problem solving, like Tony Blair's on the spot fine for drunken yobs.
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