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So here we are once again - 15 sailors taking hostage/arrested for encroching national space. Taken to Terhan to be accused of spying, tortured, abused, belittled as a symbol of the uslessness of Western involvment in the Middle East, or arrested, questioned and tried for interferring with international issues.
Is Iran holding "our boys (and girl)" hostage in an attempt to show how mighty it is to rest of the Arab world? Is it just the Iraninan Republican Guard acting alone, trying to be bad boys, and now the Iranian government is trying to sort the diplomatic mess out without lossing face? Is Blair playing a dangerous game? How effective is it to go head to head with an emerging nuclear state that is being hit by heavy UN sanctions and is a vocal as well as possibly underhanded (the supply of weapons to Iragi insurgents) agent against US and UK presence in this part of the world? What next?
Come on, TMO, let's talk some light hearted politics! It's Monday, it's sunny!
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In situations like this we usually negotiate for a bit and then they get released. Iran comes out looking well 'ard and Britain gets a bit humiliated, then continues actually being well 'ard (which we still are, despite general loss of face and bad vibes recently).
I very much doubt this will escalate into any sort of military action from our side, and it would be unprecendented for Iran to do any more harm than a couple of black eyes and a public parade of the infidel spies. Nothing which would warrant more than a bit of moaning in the House of Commons and some chest beating in the tabloids.
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p.s. Article in the papers this morning quotes an American General saying that US Marines would have fought back and never have allowed themselves to be taken alive. Posts: 8467
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Great work - at a time where Iran is trying to make a point to the US via the UK. There are some great posts on the Your Say BBC site about this - lots of, Bomb 'em! We would have never got caught! How dare they! crap.
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quote:Originally posted by dang65: p.s. Article in the papers this morning quotes an American General saying that US Marines would have fought back and never have allowed themselves to be taken alive.
Yeah, I read a thing at the weekend where some British Navy bod was saying the protocol for situations like this, when a foreign navy points guns at you is for the uniforms to cooperate and let the suits sort it out. I wonder why? I'm sure the US would've fought it out. Does that all lead to escalation, though? Look at the difference in attitude of the UK and US Army. The Americans go around in gangs of armoured Humvees blowing shit up, the British wander around in their shirtsleeves and help to put the satellite dish back up on the community centre. By and large the British held areas tend to have less strife. Maybe the jolly Tommy approach makes more sense?
quote:Originally posted by Black Mask: the protocol for situations like this, when a foreign navy points guns at you is for the uniforms to cooperate and let the suits sort it out. I wonder why? I'm sure the US would've fought it out. Does that all lead to escalation, though?
I would say it would be completely beyond the authority of an officer and a handful of sailors to start firing at a country we're not actually at war with. Fuck knows where that could lead. Anyway, it might have just been a mistake for all they knew and they could've been released half an hour later after a friendly chat over a refreshing glass of lemon tea.
Going in all guns blazing isn't really an option in a case like that is it? I'd even credit US Marines with figuring that one out. Just not their Generals maybe.
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quote:"I don't want to second-guess the British after the fact but our rules of engagement allow a little more latitude. Our boarding team's training is a little bit more towards self-preservation. Why didn't your guys defend themselves?'"
quote:Vastly outnumbered and out-gunned
I love the American approach to self-preservation...
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or, you know, this could be a handy excuse for war - yank navy seals go on a rescue mission, iranians shoot back, british ship shells the coast, etc etc etc
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quote:Originally posted by Benny the Ball: So here we are once again - 15 sailors taking hostage/arrested for encroching national space.
Given they were members of a foreign countries military working in conjunction with the neighbouring Iraqi regime on an important operation to stop the smuggling of arms into Iraq their capture on the flimsy ground of entering Iranian waterspace is totally over the top and an act of aggresion on the part of Iran.
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I do like that the red tops made the fact that she was made to wear a head scarf sound as bad as, oh, I don't know, being chained to the floor and having heavy metel music pumped at you 24 hours a day at high volume....
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Harley to be honest I think they were taken as a bargaining tool in order to distract attention from Iran's continued nuclear programme and in the reduction of sanctions.
And taking some soldiers prisoner near(ish) to your boarder is hardly say, invading a sovereign country without a mandate from the international community.
How they were put in a position where they could be taken like this is another question that needs to be asked more forcefully.
Dang's linked article is indeed tragically true, and it doesn't even cover how the current Iranian regime is the extended result of a revolution against an American installed dictator.
[ 30.03.2007, 04:24: Message edited by: Boy Racer ]
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We received some bad news yesterday morning, one of the Masketeers' best friends is having a very tough time. His family are Iraqi, they've lost various family members over the last couple of years but at the start of the week this kid's Mum found out her sister had been killed in a bomb blast, don't know who was directly responsible. Anyhow, she's extremely upset, the family is taking it all very badly, but this kid, this lovely little kid is having nightmares, moodswings, digestive problems... We'll be looking after him on Saturday, giving the Mum a break, giving him a break. But, you know, Bush and Blair aren't just fucking up lives over there.
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I'm getting a bit bored of Faye Turney, above all a mother. Who would have been the human face of this crisis if there hadn't been a blonde woman aboard?
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And she's always got a fag on the go, in every shot I've seen of her. What kind of example is that to set to young people? Posts: 8467
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Britain does seem to be squirming around a lot here. I wonder if there would have been any harm at all in saying from the outset, "We believe our boats were in Iraqi waters but understand that the borders in that area have never been officially agreed and that it is possible that the boats had strayed into Iranian waters. If this was the case then we apologise to Iran and request that our sailors be released. We will endeavour to ensure that all Royal Navy vessels remain well clear of Iranian waters in future."
If the Iranians didn't go for that then we could have moved on to all this name calling bollocks and veiled threats, but it would have been nice to try a bit of the old softly softly catchee monkey first. That opportunity's gone now anyway. Shame really. Could drag on for months now.
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If the sailors were indeed in Iranian waters, then an apology should be made. But, if they were in Iraqi waters as everyone claims, why hasn't England done something? The conservative press in the US is having a field day with this, stopping just short of calling your country a bunch of *******.
quote:Originally posted by ralph: the US is having a field day with this, stopping just short of calling your country a bunch of *******
Somebody needs to let the US know that we only pin seven worthless plastic stars to people who work in McDonalds, rather than for being captured, shooting our own men etc.
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Somebody needs to let the US know that we only pin seven worthless plastic stars to people who work in McDonalds, rather than for being captured, shooting our own men etc.
I did say the conservative press. Not the entire US feels that way. But riddle me this batman...if 15 US sailors had been seized by Iran, do you think this would be playing out a little differently?
quote:Originally posted by ralph: if 15 US sailors had been seized by Iran, do you think this would be playing out a little differently?
Of course it would be different- US foreign policy is in a league of its own.
Those fake "Dear Mum, having a lovely time in Tehran, my new friends are really nice. Britain's been really naughty and should leave Iraq now" letters are just so lame.
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: But riddle me this batman...if 15 US sailors had been seized by Iran, do you think this would be playing out a little differently?
I don't doubt for a second it would be different. But better?
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quote:Originally posted by mart: eh? (Mikee) (didn't understand)
Ah, it was just the usual UK/US rivalry where we blame ralph for everything, mixed with a feeble joke of his starring-out the swear. Wankers? Bastards? Cunters? I don't know.
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Wankers? Bastards? Cunters? I don't know.
Pussies. Syndicated conservative talk show host Michael Savage called your nations leaders a bunch of pussies, and called on the soccer hooligans to rise up and take back England from the silk-panty wearing liberals. It was the first time I had heard the word pussies used in that context on public radio. I'm not really sure he was allowed to say it or not.
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He's called Savage for a reason then. Seems like he thinks sending a bunch of skinheads with shanks and milwall-bricks to tackle a nuclear arsenal might work. Someone in the Metro suggested we should send in the SAS to 'sort it out' yesterday. Which is kind of like the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by ralph: If the sailors were indeed in Iranian waters, then an apology should be made. But, if they were in Iraqi waters as everyone claims, why hasn't England done something?
See, to me it would've been worth just saying, "yeah, sorry if we got it wrong". Why does it matter so much to us? It wouldn't be an open admission of trespassing in Iranian waters (because there isn't an official border there anyway) so they couldn't legitimately execute the sailors as spies or anything, but it would be a harmless admission that we might have made a mistake, which may have wrapped the whole thing up and it could've been forgotten about.
Maybe not though, but at least we should've tried.
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quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: He's called Savage for a reason then. Seems like he thinks sending a bunch of skinheads with shanks and milwall-bricks to tackle a nuclear arsenal might work.
He wasn't advocating sending the footie thugs to Iran. He was calling for them to rise up and take back England, to again make it a proud manly nation instead of the liberal mess it's become.
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I suppose that an apology for possibly and accidentally straying into their waters is all well and good (and would certainly be where I would have started from), but an irate Iranian government might think that the apology is a lie, that they were there on purpose, spying, so there's really no point in apologising anyway because it's essentially meaningless, so, er, it has to be worked out some other way. With data and analysis. And diplomacy. And threats, and shit.
I don't know much about it, though, and it's probably all far more complex than any of us know, any of the tabloids know, any of the serious press know, and, er, anyone else. Maybe. I don't know. No idea, actually.
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