quote:Originally posted by ralph: Ok. Look at this logically for one second. Let's say you're part of a married couple making $300,000(US) per year. And let's for a moment assume that some of that income comes from a small rental property you own...let's say a 4 unit apartment building. You currently charge $1,000 a month for each of those four flats. So under Obama...your taxes suddenly increase. What are you going to do? Raise the fucking rent, that's what. So the poor slobs who are getting this great tax cut suddenly have to pay more for a place to live. So are they really getting a tax cut?
Free market economy Ralph, they go and rent somewhere cheaper, you're out of pocket even more because you greedily tried to raise rent so you wouldn't have to pay your bit for society. All of a sudden you're not only paying higher taxes you're now also struggling to meet the mortgage on 4 'condos'.
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: Ok. Look at this logically for one second. Let's say you're part of a married couple making $300,000(US) per year. And let's for a moment assume that some of that income comes from a small rental property you own...let's say a 4 unit apartment building. You currently charge $1,000 a month for each of those four flats. So under Obama...your taxes suddenly increase. What are you going to do? Raise the fucking rent, that's what. So the poor slobs who are getting this great tax cut suddenly have to pay more for a place to live. So are they really getting a tax cut?
Nuh-uh! You're assuming that the price of the rent is linked to what the couple can afford to charge whereas it actually has to reflect what the market can afford to pay. It's lunatic to assume that this couple had previously just decided to charge less than the market rate for the rent just out of.... fucking kindness or something... like "Hey You know what - Dubya's given us a tax break, let's roll that out to the little guy". It's always going to reflect what the market will pay, so if they put the rent up, people will move else where.
If tenants have so much more money to spend on rent from tax cuts, rent will go up anyway because these two over-privildged c**ts will put the rent as high as they can regardless of what they're being taxed. At least this way the money goes back into the system rather than being squandered on talking books and dildos or whatever these scumbags spend their money on.
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: Ok. Look at this logically for one second. Let's say you're part of a married couple making $300,000(US) per year. And let's for a moment assume that some of that income comes from a small rental property you own...let's say a 4 unit apartment building. You currently charge $1,000 a month for each of those four flats. So under Obama...your taxes suddenly increase. What are you going to do? Raise the fucking rent, that's what. So the poor slobs who are getting this great tax cut suddenly have to pay more for a place to live. So are they really getting a tax cut?
aw those poor families on a mere $300,000. yes there'll be a drop in your income. but you can only make up that shortfall if the market allows you to increase rents. somehow i don't think right now property is so in demand. your attitude is essential feudal. it's if the king levies more taxes on the lords, it's the peasants who will suffer... clearly bollocks, much like trickle down economics and silly flat rate pipe dreams. the wealthy of america have been undertaxed for far too long. that even this modest redistribution attracts such ire proves what selfish anti-society folk they are. let them pay more of a share into a society that allows them to have so much.
quote:Barack Obama will provide a tax cut for working families:
Obama and Biden will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 95 percent of working Americans the tax relief they need. They will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family.
quote:Originally posted by vikram: the wealthy of america have been undertaxed for far too long. that even this modest redistribution attracts such ire proves what selfish anti-society folk they are. let them pay more of a share into a society that allows them to have so much.
you can't be serious. the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of all taxes. why should someone who works hard to make money be penalized so stiffly?
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: you can't be serious. the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of all taxes. why should someone who works hard to make money be penalized so stiffly?
they pay the majority of taxes because they earn so much. and by any international meaure they aren't taxed that much as a proportion of their income. and are you suggesting someone who holds down two jobs just so they can put food on the table, isn't hard working?
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: you can't be serious. the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of all taxes. why should someone who works hard to make money be penalized so stiffly?
I'm sure I'll once again be one of three or four people pointing out the blindingly obvious to you but this rule (more commonly an 80/20 split) applies to pretty much everything that's sustainable. So it's inevitable that 80% of tax will come from 20% of the people. There's no point rolling it out to try and demonstrate anything, because it will always be the case. If you reduced tax down to 1% for those earning 250k+ and 2% for those earning less, you'd probably still settle into an 80/20 split, just that the money raised by tax would be greatly reduced. It doesn't prove anything.
As for the idea of being 'penalised for working hard'... the problem is that when you've got someone earning 5000 times more than someone else its unlikely in the extreme that they're working 5000 times harder. It would be impossible. A lawyer can't honestly be said to be working X amount harder than a nurse. If you're in the higher tax bracket then it's inevitably a combination of luck, priviledge, greed and the exploitation of other people that puts you there. Hard work may be a factor, but it's probably the least important. You can be hard working and poor, but if the others are in place you're way ahead. So the mistake you're making is that people somehow 'deserve' or 'earn' their position and wealth, which although it's a common and comforting lie, it's still a lie.
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quote:Originally posted by vikram: they pay the majority of taxes because they earn so much. and by any international meaure they aren't taxed that much as a proportion of their income. and are you suggesting someone who holds down two jobs just so they can put food on the table, isn't hard working?
No. Someone who holds down two jobs so they can put food on the table IS hard working! It's the people who don't work ANY jobs and expect the government to give them a check every month that aren't hard working!
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: As for the idea of being 'penalised for working hard'... the problem is that when you've got someone earning 5000 times more than someone else its unlikely in the extreme that they're working 5000 times harder. It would be impossible. A lawyer can't honestly be said to be working X amount harder than a nurse. If you're in the higher tax bracket then it's inevitably a combination of luck, priviledge, greed and the exploitation of other people that puts you there. Hard work may be a factor, but it's probably the least important. You can be hard working and poor, but if the others are in place you're way ahead. So the mistake you're making is that people somehow 'deserve' or 'earn' their position and wealth, which although it's a common and comforting lie, it's still a lie.
5000 times? Where the hell do you come up with a number like that? We're not talking about the uber-rich -- we're talking about families that earn $250,000 a year! And you don't think any of these people earned their position? That a lawyer doesn't work hard to get through school and become a success?
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quote:Originally posted by McDirts: there he goes again, good ol' back pedallin' Ralph.
Back pedalling? I've done nothing but complain about the people who take money from others and do nothing. I've not made a single complaint about hard workering folk who do what they eed to do to get by! Idiot.
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: we're talking about families that earn $250,000 a year! And you don't think any of these people earned their position? That a lawyer doesn't work hard to get through school and become a success?
Is being in a position to train as a lawyer a piece of piss then that comes through hard work. Any **** can be a lawyer is that it? So some Joe who sweeps the streets for a living yet doesn't put himself through night school to train as a lawyer is just lazy? Stupid lazy street-sweepers.
quote:Originally posted by ralph: And you don't think any of these people earned their position? That a lawyer doesn't work hard to get through school and become a success?
They don't work harder than anyone else who gets a qualification and then gets a job, no. They're not - you know - magically industrious engines of study and hard graft, they're just people. There's nothing exceptional or remarkable about the amount of work that goes into becoming or practicing as a lawyer.
More to the point, if you're in the position where you have that as a choice, chances are you're lucky to be born into a relatively privelidged position. So you never really earned it, because you lucked into that situation by an accident of birth. I include myself in this, by the way, in case you think this is some kind of chip-on-my-shoulder rant about what I could have been if I hadn't been so unlucky. I could claim "Oh I worked damn hard to get my qualifications and get into publishing and get where I am today", but it would be a lie - I'm here mainly because I had opportunities handed to me on a plate I don't somehow deserve my life more than the guy who comes in to pick up the mail.
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quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Is being in a position to train as a lawyer a piece of piss then that comes through hard work. Any **** can be a lawyer is that it? So some Joe who sweeps the streets for a living yet doesn't put himself through night school to train as a lawyer is just lazy? Stupid lazy street-sweepers.
Not really sure what you're saying in the first part...but no...the street sweeper isn't lazy...but he shouldn't expect the government to send him money because he didn't try to do more with his life...
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I'd really like to underline the fact that I've been surrounded by lawyers my whole fucking life and they're the biggest bunch of freeloading cockends you can imagine. Anyone attempting to correlate high salaries and hard work by pointing to lawyers has already demolished their own argument.
quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: They don't work harder than anyone else who gets a qualification and then gets a job, no. They're not - you know - magically industrious engines of study and hard graft, they're just people. There's nothing exceptional or remarkable about the amount of work that goes into becoming or practicing as a lawyer.
lol. You've got to be joking. You don't think someone who goes to law school (and takes on the financial responsibility of having to pay for that education) worked any harder than the dude who flips burgers for a living? Are you hitting the pipe again, dude?
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: I'd really like to underline the fact that I've been surrounded by lawyers my whole fucking life and they're the biggest bunch of freeloading cockends you can imagine. Anyone attempting to correlate high salaries and hard work by pointing to lawyers has already demolished their own argument.
Fine. If it makes you feel better, replace the word lawyer with the word doctor. Christ.
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quote:Originally posted by ralph: Fine. If it makes you feel better, replace the word lawyer with the word doctor. Christ.
Well, I take it then that you admit my point - that being rich and working hard have got nothing to do with each other. If you back away from using rich lawyers as an example because they're a lazy bunch of shysters then I've already demonstrated what I'm trying to say. I'm sure there are professions where hard work and a sackful of money coincide, but it's rarely a causal effect. Can a plastic surgeon in LA be said to be working harder than a nurse in an inner city A&E ward? Obviously not - but the difference in pay will be gargantuan. So this idea of "I've worked hard and earned all this money therefore I deserve to keep it" is just... it's absurd.
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Well, and ralph has admitted himself that he does approximately fuck all most of the day and earns a very good salary, so it seems a bit bizarre to complain about people who don't work hard.
There are going to be people who work much much harder than ralph but don't earn as much, so I'm sure that he's going to find them after reading through all this and give them some of his money.
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quote:Originally posted by Thorn Davis: Well, I take it then that you admit my point - that being rich and working hard have got nothing to do with each other. If you back away from using rich lawyers as an example because they're a lazy bunch of shysters then I've already demonstrated what I'm trying to say. I'm sure there are professions where hard work and a sackful of money coincide, but it's rarely a causal effect. Can a plastic surgeon in LA be said to be working harder than a nurse in an inner city A&E ward? Obviously not - but the difference in pay will be gargantuan. So this idea of "I've worked hard and earned all this money therefore I deserve to keep it" is just... it's absurd.
No...I simply said if it makes you happy. I *still* consider anyone who put in the investment of both money and time to become a lawyer a hard worker.
I would say a plastic surgeon in LA worked harder and spent more money on education than the nurse did. And if it's so easy...then why didn't the nurse do it too?
And nowhere...NOWHERE have I said that the wealthy shouldn't pay more. But I think they pay just plenty now...no need to hit them up harder just because they have it! The government needs to cut back on it's spending...be it on the military or whatever....
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Nick Cave earns a lot and he likes to bundle a roll of fifty pound notes up in his fist and then punch homeless people in the face.
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I've done nothing but complain about the people who take money from others and do nothing. I've not made a single complaint about hard workering folk who do what they eed to do to get by! Idiot.
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