Ben - I have answered your straw man question as far as I wish to. There are no smokescreens and there is no fuse, save what is spinning around in your clearly addled mind.
Now fuck off and get you head checked again.
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You made some irrelevant points about the job you're doing now - entirely unconnected with your actual degree - then started shrieking when I pointed out that this hardly "explained" what the net result of your three years' study was.
You could have said something along the lines of "I learnt important analytical skills that equip me both as a citizen or a voter" or, alternatively, "as well as academics it's important that serious amateurs engage in historical study, taking it beyond the purview simply of career practitioners".
That you cannot, or refuse to, articulate the ways in which you feel you - and society at large - benefitted, kind of throws into question whether the exercise was at all worthwhile.
It certainly doesn't leave you in a particularly firm position from which to lecture others.
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quote:Originally posted by Ringo: Likewise the comments that he's a talented/untalented writer aren't really any use since nobody has actually sampled any of his 'writing', confusing it with his 'posts'. I'm sure that you of all people can understand the difference.
I don't think there's always a distinction between "writing posts" and "writing".
You're assuming that anything anyone produced for TMO is automatically going to be substandard, dashed-off and unrepresentative, while someone's "real" creative writing will be saved for another audience. In fact, I think the opposite might often be true. Many contributors here do seem to write posts as exercises in creative style, as showcases for their descriptive skills. Maybe it is the case that they submit it thinking "this is casual rubbish compared to my proper stuff, but it's good enough for this crowd", but I suspect quite a lot of care and rewriting goes into some of the more ambitious descriptive posts we sometimes see here.
Talking of cars Ringo, do you like the Italdesign Asgard, the Cadillac Voyage, the Chevrolet Express.
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Surely though there's more to being a "good writer" than being able to string together, what, a few thousand words at the most, showcasing your wordiness? I mean in terms of fiction, is a consistent narrative and character development just as important? I have read books by writers who have incredibly plain styles of writing but whose ability to construct an inticing world has made the book just as gripping as anything more poetic I've read. Perhaps I'm not the best critic as I'm not particularly well read, but I would find it hard to believe that, no matter how well written, you could really get a feel for a writers' ability simply from a few hundred posts, at least half of which will inevitably be written with little care and attention. Even the most devoted of posters can't maintain that level of involvement all of the time.
On the flipside, people have occasionally told me I have talent from my posts, while I'm painfully aware of the fact I couldn't write a book for shit.
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As for the cars - anything by Italdesign is fine by me. I don't know what the other two are. They sound American and I don't 'do' American.
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Re. the cars, a student of mine is working on Intersection magazine and they are absolutely stunning 1980s vehicles, mad stylised streamlined creations like something the Silver Surfer would drive.
When I am less tired I may scan some pix of them and also reply properly to your above, quite convincing and reasonable, post.
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I don't 'do' American.
Slowly the lift came to a stop. With a faint hiss the doors slid open. Ringo stared into the metallic interior; the glossy but faintly warm glow from the lift gently caressed his lightly tanned cheeks.
Inside, the vaguely pot noodle, slinky sound of leather clad thighs sussulated as Jennifer Lopez unfolded her limbs and moved from the interior of the lift.
"Whhooo," she breathed sensually in his ear as she passed. Her tongue flickered briefly across his ear. " Later?"
He drew himself up slightly.
"Sorry, " said Ringo. "I don't 'do' American."
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quote:Originally posted by ben: You could have said something along the lines of "I learnt important analytical skills that equip me both as a citizen or a voter" or, alternatively, "as well as academics it's important that serious amateurs engage in historical study, taking it beyond the purview simply of career practitioners".
I would have thought you would have seen this as a given though - along with the analytical skills one generally develops when writing essays and structuring an argument. I however was being more specific in looking in terms of the subject matter and its direct relevance to ones' present occupation.
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ie. Refusing to answer a question I hadn't even asked. I don't know. This 'you ought to have taken this as a given' wheeze is a bit feeble - especially since you're so precious about people (especially me) "making assumptions" about you.
It doesn't look like I'm going to get a reasonable response to my fairly straightforward question so I suppose the closing observations of my previous post stand.
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I've always found Fionnula's posts to be distinctive and usually enjoyable, and interpreted the somewhat jaunty original post as part-bravado at announcing something difficult. My younger brother failed university for various reasons and has struggled to sort himself out since then. The thought of Aborton dishing out similarly predictable and unnecessary bile in his direction makes me bristle with surprisingly fierce and protective big sisterly rage.
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Getting kicked out for not attending is a bit shit really. It is dead easy to not attend and not get kicked out. Lectures, not registered so no need to go to any of them. Tutorials, registered. Go to them. However not all of them. Having a crisis of some description helps. Perhaps someone close being taken seriously ill. This even gets sympathy from pretty boys/girls that don't know you as you hardly ever attend.
Downsides are when engaged in a lively tutorial not going to lectures means you don't know shit. However, picking vaguley relavant points from tutorial notes helps. If you have no fear of looking a bit stupid you'll be alright.
Exams can be troublesome but a little creativity goes a long way.
I pissed academia up the wall. Now I am in a job I don't like. However, I suspect if I had not pissed academia up the wall I would still be in a job I didn't like. So it goes.
I might do a masters now though and I promise to take that seriously.
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quote:Originally posted by squirrelandgman: Getting kicked out for not attending is a bit shit really. It is dead easy to not attend and not get kicked out. Lectures, not registered so no need to go to any of them. Tutorials, registered. Go to them. However not all of them. Having a crisis of some description helps. Perhaps someone close being taken seriously ill. This even gets sympathy from pretty boys/girls that don't know you as you hardly ever attend.
Downsides are when engaged in a lively tutorial not going to lectures means you don't know shit. However, picking vaguley relavant points from tutorial notes helps. If you have no fear of looking a bit stupid you'll be alright.
Exams can be troublesome but a little creativity goes a long way.
I pissed academia up the wall. Now I am in a job I don't like. However, I suspect if I had not pissed academia up the wall I would still be in a job I didn't like. So it goes.
I might do a masters now though and I promise to take that seriously.
There is an argument that education, especially higher education, has a purpose beyond just getting you a job -- that it's intended to encourage critical and creative thinking, that learning is invigorating and enriching whether a register is taken or not. Some would say that having three years in which to debate, to read, to realise how little you know and try to know more is a luxury you should make the most of.
I doubt this argument holds much water with you though, or indeed many people these days.
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Isn't the problem not that Fionnula is unbothered about getting thrown out of University (whether he is or not), but more the reaction of "go and jump off a bridge"?
Maybe I'm being too fluffy, but can't people just be a little nicer to each other? Snorton you could have expressed your frustration without suggesting Fionnula kill himself, no?
[ 15.09.2004, 05:38: Message edited by: Bailey ]
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quote:Originally posted by kovacs: Some would say that having three years in which to debate, to read, to realise how little you know and try to know more is a luxury you should make the most of.
It might be argued that squirrelman was expressing, in a rather skewed way, a widely held opinion that, for the very reason you state above, higher education (in this country* at least) is very often wasted on the (young) people it's aimed at.
quote:Originally posted by kovacs: There is an argument that education, especially higher education, has a purpose beyond just getting you a job -- that it's intended to encourage critical and creative thinking, that learning is invigorating and enriching whether a register is taken or not. Some would say that having three years in which to debate, to read, to realise how little you know and try to know more is a luxury you should make the most of.
I doubt this argument holds much water with you though, or indeed many people these days.
You are absolutely right Kovacs. I agree. Try telling that to me when I was 18 though. I was a twat when I was 18. I am moderately better now. Which is why I am considering a masters. I did waste my time at university and I do, to an extent, regret it.
However, I was exceptionaly good at blagging it. Something which took a degree of critical and creative thinking. I discovered quite a lot about getting away with it so my time wasn't entirely wasted.
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quote:Originally posted by kovacs: Some would say that having three years in which to debate, to read, to realise how little you know and try to know more is a luxury you should make the most of.
It might be argued that squirrelman was expressing, in a rather skewed way, a widely held opinion that, for the very reason you state above, higher education (in this country* at least) is very often wasted on the (young) people it's aimed at.
*Edit: that's the UK, not Spain.
I'd say he wasn't expressing this idea, but was demonstrating why it might be true.
And in fairness, I took the above attitude far more when I was paying for an MA part-time, or when I was against my expectations given funding to do a full-time PhD. Doing a BA was more of a matter of course, partly a social/life-experience thing, an initiation into adulthood. But while I did skip lectures, as I've always found it more profitable to learn thru reading on my own rather than listening to someone else reading, I did also take some pleasure in feeling myself critically challenged and my boundaries of knowledge expanded.
quote:Originally posted by squirrelandgman: I agree. Try telling that to me when I was 18 though. I was a twat when I was 18. I am moderately better now. Which is why I am considering a masters. I did waste my time at university and I do, to an extent, regret it.
However, I was exceptionaly good at blagging it. Something which took a degree of critical and creative thinking. I discovered quite a lot about getting away with it so my time wasn't entirely wasted.
Fair's fair, as I said I didn't really make the most of higher education until I was paying for it myself and doing it after work, as a slightly older young man of 24. I think I should have applied myself a little better too, but maybe the "undergraduate experience" is inevitably not just about academia, but also about learning who you are as a young adult, how you relate to your peers and authority... &c.
quote:Originally posted by ben: ie. Refusing to answer a question I hadn't even asked. I don't know. This 'you ought to have taken this as a given' wheeze is a bit feeble - especially since you're so precious about people (especially me) "making assumptions" about you.
Oh come off it. I think most people who've been through University would say that on a general level it gave them the opportunity to fine-tune their skills in analysis, argumentation and essay-writing skills; some would also talk of non-academic benefits, such as self-sufficiency, financial management (or not, in some cases), and expanding their social horizons.
I think we got our wires crossed somewhat: When you said the following
quote:So far as I can tell your degree (Modern History?) has very little to do with the 'services' you now provide (web design). Given this lack of connection between what you did for those three years and what you now do...
I was under the impression that you were asking me how relevant my degree was to what I am doing today. I felt that you were leading me into a trap, prosecution lawyer stylee, knowing that ultimately I would have to end up answering "my degree has no relevance to what I am doing right now, m'lud". I countered this by arguing that this charge could be levelled at the vast majority of graduates today, given that many are working in fields not particularly related to their degree subject.
Had you worded the question you were actually asking accurately - essentially, "what did studying for your degree provide you with generally?" - you would have got the answer you wanted.
quote:It doesn't look like I'm going to get a reasonable response to my fairly straightforward question so I suppose the closing observations of my previous post stand.
My response above is pretty reasonable, I think.
As a footnote, things may well change in the next year or so. Two of my military history websites (all done for love and no money) are starting to prove rather popular, and I am planning to write a book on at least one of the subjects (in cahoots with another fellow enthusiast). I have also been contacted by researchers from two major terrestrial television networks about future documentary programmes. So by next year I could be both a published author and historical consultant, which would constitute my coming back into the fold, so to speak.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: The days of degree leading to a "relevant" job are long gone, with the obvious exception of the academic arena itself.
Ahem.
You know that 2@'s only trolling because no-one made enough fuss over him in his first incarnation. Either that or boredom. I'll have to ask.
Ooh, I feel like kovacs with a pet Rilian.
????
I really hope you're not the best that this board has to offer. And what's a 'Rilian'?
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i got a job today even though i was convinced i had said so many twatty things in the interview they would use my cv as the twisty for a ceremonial bonfire, and i got the volunteer position i was asking advice about two weeks ago! and, i reminded the deputy editor of the not-for-profit magazine i worked on last year of my existence, and hopefully how very worth the £120 a day they paid me i actually am, yay!
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