posted
I've been reading this *BBC News article about a woman who followed the advice of her satellite navigation system and drove her car onto a railway track.
quote:"I put my complete trust in the sat nav and it led me right into the path of a speeding train," she said.
"The crossing wasn't shown on the sat nav, there were no signs at all and it wasn't lit up to warn of an oncoming train."
posted
I watched "The Prestige" the other day, they changed quite a few key elements of the book. One of them being that when the magician guy duplicates himself in the book the duplicate (the prestige) dies, whereas in the film the duplicate survives, so has to be killed off by the magician (via a trap door into a locked water tank. It's fucked up when you think about it, because when he first does it the prestige kills him. Like, if you created an EXACT duplicate of yourself either one would be you so if the other died you would still be alive.... dunno would it work like that, like if I duplicated myself and then the duplicate killed me would the other me be me, if you see what I mean.
Suprise appearance (for me) by David Bowie as Tessla (the electric dude) acting not great, weird eye quite good.
Anyway, 5/10, not really worth the effort of renting it out.
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posted
I was going to watch "The gods must be crazy" because it's on cable but then I was like, you know, tribes, quirkiness, earnestness, behhh, no.
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quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Big Nuts: really because a few people i know saw the prestige and said it was worth seeing.
I really liked The Prestige, but it's not really worth seeing now because Tilde's post contains spoilers that will have completely ruined the experience of watching film for you. His score of 5/10 is also unreliable because he has taken the end of the film at face value and assumed the machine works, despite Michael Caine's comments about not having seen what you think you've seen.
But like I say, the film's ability to hold your attention rests entirely on the ongoing revelations of its secrets so spoilers really are spoilers, and I'd probably say that anyone who knows about the twists mentioned in Tilde's post needn't bother watching the film.
-------------------- Now that you've called me by name? Posts: 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Big Nuts: really because a few people i know saw the prestige and said it was worth seeing.
I really liked The Prestige, but it's not really worth seeing now because Tilde's post contains spoilers that will have completely ruined the experience of watching film for you. His score of 5/10 is also unreliable because he has taken the end of the film at face value and assumed the machine works, despite Michael Caine's comments about not having seen what you think you've seen.
But like I say, the film's ability to hold your attention rests entirely on the ongoing revelations of its secrets so spoilers really are spoilers, and I'd probably say that anyone who knows about the twists mentioned in Tilde's post needn't bother watching the film.
Actually I've left out the whole twin = assistant spoiler of his rival magician, and anyhow, who reads this apart from me you benway and misc? It's not like benway is going to go and rent it out is he.
Also, face value? What other explanation is there?
posted
It's ok big nuts I have been reading Derren Brown's tricks of the mind and I'm going to attempt to perform a technique that will erase all memory of the spoilers that you have read in my posts... you see Nathan, there's no point in getting your knickers in a twist as I have a plan anyhow.
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quote:Originally posted by Tilde: Also, face value? What other explaination is there?
SPOILER B HERE FOR ALMOST ALL OF THE PRESTIGE
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Ok, the biggest problem with the theory that 'the machine didn't work' is that I can't explain just how Angiers does his trick. However, i don't think that means it's not a trick. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear - I can't say how he did it, but the thing I can be certain of, is that he didn't magic it away. In a film about misdirection, deceit and trickery it seems reckless to take its central assertion at face value when it rests on a mad flight of fancy in a movie otherwise grounded in reality. So, I think it's worth considering the following...
Alot of the film is made up of grand examples of characters playing the pledge, turn and prestige on each other: Borden sets Angiers up with his false diary, creating a situation where, like the audience at a magic show, Angiers is practically begging to believe that Tesla created the Transported Man trick for Borden (we know he didn't, of course - he just supplied the zappy electricity to give it some showmanship). BUt Angiers won't see the simple explanation. Tesla kind of strings him along - he's just reluctant enough to keep Angiers interested, and all the time these experiments are going on Angiers is showering Tesla with money. All Tesla has to do is give a little zappy light show every couple of weeks. Eventually, there's his big reveal, just as the money's about to stop of dozens of hats and several black cats. But, it's easy to explain those as just being, a bunch of hats designed the same way. Crucially, when Tesla zaps the cat, he then takes it's collar off - a red and gold neck band, I think - and the ones outside, it's supposed clones have different collars.
Moreover, if this machine is really working, why the flipping heck does Tesla get run out of town for paying his bills? His behaviour is inexplicable if the machine works - because he's basically got an endless source of cash, or if he wants to share his invention, he's got a revolutionary product on his hands. He protests a bit to Angiers about how dangerous it all is but he still gives him the flipping thing, even though it's not what he wanted, and Tesla claims it's evil. That's barmpot behaviour if the machine works, not to mention the impossible to swallow co-incidence that when Borden sends Algiers on the wild goose chase he just so happens to send him to a guy who can provide a solution to the act. No - it was surely a set up Tesla was part of, got paid handsomely for and then he bailed out on the back of a supposed angry mob of his rivals men.
So Angiers arrives back in London, and realises he's been taken for a ride, so in turn he sets up his revenge. The only purpose of this is to trap Borden - he actually says as much when he talks about designing the flyer for the show. If Borden has actually given Angiers what he wanted, why this elaborate revenge? Angiers would still feel like he had won, but he's more desperate than ever to set Borden up.
So he has his super-transported man trick to get Borden back stage, with all the trappings - the blind stage hands, the covered tanks etc being misdirection to further baffle Borden. He goes backstage, is framed for murder. Angiers wins: this was his plan. Also, it's worth noting that the scene in which Angiers kills his double is narrated by Angiers to his arch rival - the guy he doesn't want to know his secrets. Like much of what they tell each other, this could be another lie. Remember, when Borden turns up in amongst the tanks Angiers's words are "Huh, twins". If the Tesla machine worked, why does Angiers immediately assume that Borden is a twin? Surely he would think 'clone'? Then of course, the film ends - with a voice over saying "You haven't seen what you think you've seen", and a shot of the black hats. That's a heavy intimation that some sort of sleight of hand has gone on on the part of the filmaker - that he himself has conducted his own Pledge, Turn, Prestige on the audience, and that the answer we're left with is no more the explanation than David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear by magic.
SO, like I say, I can't explain the trick and the drowning. We know there's a doublt, but we know Borden can see through that. And that doesn't explain the drowning. Personally, I htink the clue is in a shot earlier in the film of Angiers holding his head under water - like he's practicing. We know in the final act that he can do the escape from the water tank. I reckon he just doesn't drown in that sequence, that when the glass is smashed he comes out alive. But I've only seen it once, so I can't be sure.
-------------------- Now that you've called me by name? Posts: 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tilde: Also, face value? What other explaination is there?
SPOILER B HERE FOR ALMOST ALL OF THE PRESTIGE
.
.
.
Ok, the biggest problem with the theory that 'the machine didn't work' is that I can't explain just how Angiers does his trick. However, i don't think that means it's not a trick. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear - I can't say how he did it, but the thing I can be certain of, is that he didn't magic it away. In a film about misdirection, deceit and trickery it seems reckless to take its central assertion at face value when it rests on a mad flight of fancy in a movie otherwise grounded in reality. So, I think it's worth considering the following...
Alot of the film is made up of grand examples of characters playing the pledge, turn and prestige on each other: Borden sets Angiers up with his false diary, creating a situation where, like the audience at a magic show, Angiers is practically begging to believe that Tesla created the Transported Man trick for Borden (we know he didn't, of course - he just supplied the zappy electricity to give it some showmanship). BUt Angiers won't see the simple explanation. Tesla kind of strings him along - he's just reluctant enough to keep Angiers interested, and all the time these experiments are going on Angiers is showering Tesla with money. All Tesla has to do is give a little zappy light show every couple of weeks. Eventually, there's his big reveal, just as the money's about to stop of dozens of hats and several black cats. But, it's easy to explain those as just being, a bunch of hats designed the same way. Crucially, when Tesla zaps the cat, he then takes it's collar off - a red and gold neck band, I think - and the ones outside, it's supposed clones have different collars.
Moreover, if this machine is really working, why the flipping heck does Tesla get run out of town for paying his bills? His behaviour is inexplicable if the machine works - because he's basically got an endless source of cash, or if he wants to share his invention, he's got a revolutionary product on his hands. He protests a bit to Angiers about how dangerous it all is but he still gives him the flipping thing, even though it's not what he wanted, and Tesla claims it's evil. That's barmpot behaviour if the machine works, not to mention the impossible to swallow co-incidence that when Borden sends Algiers on the wild goose chase he just so happens to send him to a guy who can provide a solution to the act. No - it was surely a set up Tesla was part of, got paid handsomely for and then he bailed out on the back of a supposed angry mob of his rivals men.
So Angiers arrives back in London, and realises he's been taken for a ride, so in turn he sets up his revenge. The only purpose of this is to trap Borden - he actually says as much when he talks about designing the flyer for the show. If Borden has actually given Angiers what he wanted, why this elaborate revenge? Angiers would still feel like he had won, but he's more desperate than ever to set Borden up.
So he has his super-transported man trick to get Borden back stage, with all the trappings - the blind stage hands, the covered tanks etc being misdirection to further baffle Borden. He goes backstage, is framed for murder. Angiers wins: this was his plan. Also, it's worth noting that the scene in which Angiers kills his double is narrated by Angiers to his arch rival - the guy he doesn't want to know his secrets. Like much of what they tell each other, this could be another lie. Remember, when Borden turns up in amongst the tanks Angiers's words are "Huh, twins". If the Tesla machine worked, why does Angiers immediately assume that Borden is a twin? Surely he would think 'clone'? Then of course, the film ends - with a voice over saying "You haven't seen what you think you've seen", and a shot of the black hats. That's a heavy intimation that some sort of sleight of hand has gone on on the part of the filmaker - that he himself has conducted his own Pledge, Turn, Prestige on the audience, and that the answer we're left with is no more the explanation than David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear by magic.
SO, like I say, I can't explain the trick and the drowning. We know there's a doublt, but we know Borden can see through that. And that doesn't explain the drowning. Personally, I htink the clue is in a shot earlier in the film of Angiers holding his head under water - like he's practicing. We know in the final act that he can do the escape from the water tank. I reckon he just doesn't drown in that sequence, that when the glass is smashed he comes out alive. But I've only seen it once, so I can't be sure.
hmnn, interesting. However, it is Borden holding his head underwater - in the scene I am thinking of- (in the sink) directly after Angiers wife drowns. Presumably in some sort of fit of self hate.
Anyhow, going with your theory that the machine doesn't work.
I can't see how he would do the trick either - appearing on the balcony whilst simultaneously falling through a trapdoor into the (locked) water tank. Although if we suspend belief for a moment and say that he did, did he do all that just to frame Borden with his own murder. Seems a bit toooooo far fetched to me, eg.
1. He has to rely on Borden being there at that exact moment (there's no way he can know when this will happen).
2. He has to "drown"
3. Borden has to see that he is dead
4. Borden gets caught
5. In the final scene of the film Borden is in the area where Angiers stores all the dead replicates (The Prestige Materials) in their water tanks - presumably there is quite a few of them. What are they - elaborate realistic models?...
6. If this was all a set up in order to get Borden framed, and hung...Wouldn't it have been a lot easier just to get someone to just.. kill him?
I don't remember the voice over at the end of the film, I may have to watch it again with your comments in my mind and see if any of your theory rings true. I'm not entirely convinced but if it did work on that level rather than face value I'd probably give it a 8.5/10
quote:Originally posted by Tilde: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nathan Bleak: Anyhow, going with your theory that the machine doesn't work.
1. He has to rely on Borden being there at that exact moment (there's no way he can know when this will happen).
He can obviously see through the glass whether Borden is there or not - any other night he can just climb out. He only starts to 'drown' when he sees Borden standing outside the tank.
quote:2. He has to "drown"
Yes, either him or - possibly - the double he uses earlier in the film. But he could be faking. He's a big fella and we see from the courtroom that the model of the tank has got a big hole in it - the glass was smashed to get the drowning body out.
quote:3. Borden has to see that he is dead
Well, yeah... dead or playing dead. I don't see this as any kind of a problem.
quote:4. Borden gets caught
Again - yes because it appears as though he's killed Angiers, but don't think that negates the possibility that his double is back. I mean, whatever interpretation you take, Borden is being set up to be arrested for a crime he doesn't commit - there is bound to be some oversight on the part of the justice system, because we know he's innocent, whatever your interpretation.
quote:5. In the final scene of the film Borden is in the area where Angiers stores all the dead replicates (The Prestige Materials) in their water tanks - presumably there is quite a few of them. What are they - elaborate realistic models?...
But... we only see one. The film plays on your presumptions all the way through, it shows you something, lets you infer a wrong conclusion and uses that to undermine your take on events. It is what makes it a good film.
quote:6. If this was all a set up in order to get Borden framed, and hung...Wouldn't it have been a lot easier just to get someone to kill him?
Surely this applies whatever you believe about the machine working? It's made explicit that the show is there as bait to get Borden backstage and frame him for murder. It may well be a lot easier to get someone to kill him, but that's the case if Angiers is framing him using a double, or a sci-fi clone.
More to the point, Angiers's revenge centres on creating a trick Borden cannot explain - by not giving it away at the end (ie by lying to him) Angiers actually 'wins' by the terms of their rivalry. Also - remember when Angiers is dying he says "The world is solid, and miserable" and laments the boring explainability of everything. Those aren't the words of someone who's just learnt 'real' magic - they're the words of someone who knows the banality of the truth.
The thing is, the central motif of the film is misdirection. It's a film about magic tricks, and it's a film that is itself a trick, with the director as a magician pulling a Pledge, Turn, Prestige on the audience. That Michael Caine quote warns us at the beginning and end that we're about to be sleighted, so it stands to reason that everything you see unfold is not necessarily the last word on the matter.
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posted
That's just my take on it though - plenty of people agree with what you're saying. If you look on the imdb board, it literally alternates with threads claiming it did work and threads claiming it didn't, each claiming to have definitive evidence.
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H1ppychick
We all prisoners, chickee-baby. We all locked in.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nathan Bleak:
quote:5. In the final scene of the film Borden is in the area where Angiers stores all the dead replicates (The Prestige Materials) in their water tanks - presumably there is quite a few of them. What are they - elaborate realistic models?...
But... we only see one. The film plays on your presumptions all the way through, it shows you something, lets you infer a wrong conclusion and uses that to undermine your take on events. It is what makes it a good film.
We do see a whole rank of tanks, uncovered, with bodies/models/dummies/whatever of Angier-alikes in them, not just one.
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Like Nathan, I haven't quite worked out how he did it, but I can't see how you can satisfactorily conclude that Angiers "transported" himself by magyke. The whole point of the film is that there is no magic- just brilliantly clever trickery, staging and presentation. It seems really jarring to have one single bit of actual, repeatable controllable supernatural power amongst the blunt reality of "magic"- trapdoors, knotwork, birds getting killed on a daily basis, tricks performed by stunt doubles/twins etc. It's against the whole spirit of the film.
Key points are the fact that Angiers is desperate for Borden to suffer as he has suffered- death of a loved one and the anguish of a professional secret. He has limitless funds to spend on any number of baffling misdirections (many tanks, employment and silence of blind or fake blind stagehands etc). Borden condemned to die in prison, knowing his daughter's future is uncertain and not knowing how Angiers did it is the ideal outcome for him.
One possibility is that it's simply another actor double being used for the 100 show run. Angiers knows Borden will be tempted to snoop backstage at some point, and is prepared to drown the double on that night to frame him.
Remember, all the tricks done in the film rely on hours of behind the scenes practising, patience and sacrifice to get right. Angiers has the time, money and veangeful attitude to pull the Transported Man off somehow.
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posted
Wow. That thing about the endscene is true as well, you do only see one replicate (presumably) dead in the water tank. If the director did set the whole thing up as a "trick" you can see how that end scene would cause him problems. From our viewpoint we do only see the one replicate... something that is a bit strange if you think of it from a director's point of view, as perhaps having borden run through the crypt dragging the covers off of the tanks and seeing a hundred dead replicates drowned would perhaps have had more visual impact...
I dunno, I read the book first which I think has the premise that Tesla's machine works and ends with a hundred replicates stuck in a crypt.
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: SPOILERS ALSO.... Like Nathan, I haven't quite worked out how he did it, but I can't see how you can satisfactorily conclude that Angiers "transported" himself by magyke.
I watched a program called 100 greatest Magic Tricks and there was a guy on there who did a vanishing trick on stage and about 10 seconds later he was in the chandelier of the theatre. It was very similar. So it could be physically possible, especially as Angier performs his show in the same theatre?
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