posted
The only things I can't do Ally are actually have the baby (physically) and then breastfeed it, other than that there's nothing a woman can do that I can't (And vice versa).
Pretty sexist attitude really for a girl !!! .
-------------------- my own brother a god dam shit sucking vampire!!! you wait till mum finds out buddy!
My best friends are Lisa and Tim, both around 40 years old, both been married before etc. They are the people that I look at for inspiration when I'm feeling all despondent and think I will never find a "nice" man to settle down with and raise rugrats with. They both had hideous divorces - Tim's wife had an affair 3 months into their marriage and got preggers by another guy, Lisa's split up because they wanted children and she couldn't get pregnant. They went through all the IVF and everything and in the end the strain was just all too much. BUT! They met each other, much love was shared and all was good.
Last year they decided that they would look into adoption and set the wheels in motion. They were accepted but told that only one of them would be able to legally adopt the child as they weren't married. Cue huge, romantic proposal from Tim on Valentine's day this year. Then, about 2 weeks after that, Lisa rang me at work crying her eyes out and I thought something terrible had happened. But she was happycrying. She is pregnant and expecting a baby in November.
*sigh* I love a happy ending.
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quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: The only things I can't do Ally are actually have the baby (physically) and then breastfeed it, other than that there's nothing a woman can do that I can't (And vice versa).
Right on brother!
Also; when I worked in the nursery it was possibly the most demeaning job ever, in that I was treated in such a way as to be completely incapable of doing any particular job. The women made sure that every job I had was made as difficult as possible. They would make me change the children at every opportunity given. I perpetually smelt of baby wipes.
They made my daily existence a living hell. Anyone else would receive help when putting children down for their afternoon nap. Not me. I would often be in a room with 10 children. Some falling asleep, others making noises to themselves and some crawling of their mat and onto other sleeping children. Conveniently, there would be no-one else to assist and then they would say ‘it’s time to wake them up’ then complain that they hadn’t had enough sleep. There is an endless catalogue of things like this. It wouldn’t of been so bad, but I found out recently that they hadn’t even mailed off my CSA details. So I was working, 5 months, with children, without a criminal background check.
This was my first proper full on experience of real prejudice. Incompetence too in a major way I suppose.
[ 06.08.2004, 05:48: Message edited by: New Way Of Decay ]
Why this requirement that anyone should come up with a new reason for having children? One that you haven't heard many times before. I'd say that all of the arguments on both sides of this fence are pretty much done; all that's left is to decide where on the continuum we, as individuals, stand.
In your own post you absolutely fail to offer any real, convincing arguments against. So what if, as a man, my biological contribution lasts all of, well, a reasonable amount of minutes? All this "my sperm works" crap may be true for some, but it's a bit of a hackneyed Greer-ism, no?
I don't think that anyone has a responsibility to breed. I don't think that those who choose not to are selfish. I don't think that anyone posting on here is trying to convince anyone else to do anything, just saying where they themselves stand!
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:Originally posted by ally: I have had this discussion so many times its made my ears bleed. There is an assumption that if you are in a long-term relationship of any sort, then procreation will follow.... No-one on this thread has come up with an argument in favour of children that I haven't heard many times already. To paraphrase the main arguments in favour: You're intelligent and well educated, you should have kids because at least you're will be decent ones. You need to breed, its all there is to life, you need to breed, otherwise you won't be "fulfilled." Yawn. Sorry chaps, but these arguments haven't changed my mind before, and they're unlikely to now.
I wasn't under the impression that anyone was trying to change your mind. Unless you read BM's posts as directives? I think you've misunderstood the arguments as well. There's only Darryn seems to reckon that the middle classes should get to some hardcore spawning lest the scummers take over the earth and drag us all down into some unpalatable pit of poverty. There's an awful lot of people on this thread who've talked about their various hopes and concerns about pregnancy, rather than insisting that children is the only route to fulfilment. Don't posit onto this thread things you might feel pressured about in your everyday life; I don't think it does the thread justice.
quote:What I find interesting though, is that the majority of people who are going all pie-eyed and skewedly optimistic are the men. The women are far more pragmatic. Maybe this is because it is the women who will carry the foetus, go through labour, breastfeed, do the lions share of childcare, and so on.
I'd imagine so. A lot of my personal qualms about having children are the health risks of pregnancy (pre enclampsia, blood pressure rocketing, all the hideous things that can go wrong) and vanity risks (all those dignity sapping things like stretchmarks and piles and pelvic floor leakage). But I think you're doing men a disservice to imply that all they're going to do is provide sperm and then garner testosterone fuelled high. I'm not sure from whence comes your experience of parenting, but in my eyes these days it's a much more mixed bag. All my contemporaries share childcare and nappy cahnging and feeding and waking quite equally. There are certain things men, by biology, can't do, yes, but to imply that there remains an uneven share of workload after baby is born is a bit wrong, I think.
quote:I thank the Lord on a daily basis for the 1960's, the contraceptive pill, the Abortion Act, and the right to choose.
Um, don't we all? We can, like, choose when to have them these days and there's an end to the days when 15 year olds got put in abusive homes or died on kitchen tables with a knife in their bits. This is always going to be a good thing whether you want kids or not.
Sorry if this sounds a bit like I'm taking you down, but I get the impression you've managed to completely misread most of this and come out yelling It's my right not to have kids and you bunch of full on procreationists can't make me!!Posts: 5776
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quote:Originally posted by ally: What I find interesting though, is that the majority of people who are going all pie-eyed and skewedly optimistic are the men. The women are far more pragmatic. Maybe this is because it is the women who will carry the foetus, go through labour, breastfeed, do the lions share of childcare, and so on. As far as kids go, men get a much better deal out of it. Their contribution to the process is over in minutes. After that, all they have to do is feel like a real man, ("look, my sperm work!") carry round photos, and accept the "congratulations" of other males. Even if they want to do this new man thing, there's a limit to what they *can* physically, emotionally, intellectually, psychically, do.
With all the good will in the world, childbearing and childrearing are, for the most part, womens work, and I thank the Lord on a daily basis for the 1960's, the contraceptive pill, the Abortion Act, and the right to choose.
Wow - what a mean-spirited post! I don't think any man with half a brain cell is going to be oblivious to the physical trauma that pregnancy, childbirth and the aftermath inflict upon the mother - especially not if he's been with her during labour. The friends I know who've experienced this at close quarters regard it more with something like awe and gratitude than "Nice one - I got out of doing any hard work."
Even if I were to accept your somewhat 1950s depiction of male-female roles, I couldn't accept that the person who - through economic necessity - spends less time raising their child, is less likely to see the first couple of steps or hear the first word somehow gets the "better deal".
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quote:Originally posted by saltrock: A nice story for you:
They were accepted but told that only one of them would be able to legally adopt the child as they weren't married. Cue huge, romantic proposal from Tim on Valentine's day this year. Then, about 2 weeks after that, Lisa rang me at work crying her eyes out and I thought something terrible had happened. But she was happycrying. She is pregnant and expecting a baby in November.
*sigh* I love a happy ending.
Yeah, I bet that poor kiddy in the orphanage is sitting there RIGHT NOW just LOVING Lisa and Timbo's happy ending.
Sorry kid, I know it's a bummer, but now we get to have a proper baby.
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quote:Originally posted by saltrock: A nice story for you:
Lisa rang me at work crying her eyes out and I thought something terrible had happened. But she was happycrying. She is pregnant and expecting a baby in November.
This should also be a comfort/alarm bell for anyone who's having trouble getting buns in the oven and thinks there's something wrong with them. It is not completely unknown for the body to change its mind without warning and go, "Oh, alright then, I suppose we might as well have a baby after all."
We had to go through strange courses of injections and complex star charts and stuff in order to have our first three, which is why they are so spread out in age. We've never used contraception of any kind. Number Four then was something of a *gasp*/*thud* moment. He's a little love and we wouldn't be without him for the world, but he'll always be Mr Completely Unexpected Shock WTF to us.
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quote:Originally posted by StevieX: Yeah, I bet that poor kiddy in the orphanage is sitting there RIGHT NOW just LOVING Lisa and Timbo's happy ending.
Sorry kid, I know it's a bummer, but now we get to have a proper baby.
Maybe they could adopt a kid as well as having their own. After trying them both out for a few months to see which they prefer, they could sell the other one on - probably for a huge profit.
posted
Louche, can I just clarify what I mean here...
I don't think that the middle classes should get down to some serious breeding lest the scum take over, I think that there is a need to slow down the spread of 'benefit' breeding and 'poor education' breeding.
Now what I mean by that is:
Benefit breeding - for personal gain, not for the love or want of a child, but to get a better flat, extra benefits, have a baby as a fashion accessory (Cue the "I want a braaaaawn one, all the other muvver 'ave one" jokes) - Basically a means to an end.
Poor Education breeding - a lack of good sex education coupled with poor parenting, poor moral values, poor contraceptive availability and the stigma attached to abortion.
We don't need to speed up breeding anywhere, but we do need to slow it down...
As was once mentioned in this thread, the mortality rates of infants used to be much higher, now there's nothing killing these kiddies off naturally we need to slow the birth rate down.
Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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The chance is that I’m getting aerated over semantics but your language and approach are anathema to me. I’m not sure how much evidence there is that there are benefit babies and fashion accessory babies. Perhaps this goes on to some extent. But I’ve worked in regeneration for about 5 years now and it’s not something that’s been seen as a big issue by any of the people I’ve worked with.
The other thing is this whole assumption that we need to slow down breeding. Demographics repeatedly show that, with better health care and better lives, people are living longer and the population is getting ‘top heavy’. To support this population we need more children and young people to fill vital roles. Governments are talking about having to utilise immigrant labour in the future. So why the need to slow down breeding?
Rather than ‘stop the poor having kids’ I’d say ‘isn’t it a better idea to educate the kids of the poor? Then they can get jobs and pay tax and support the country generally. Educate them about sexual health as well and perhaps they’ll have fewer children and perhaps not…
What I really don’t like about your posts is the ‘we need to slow down the breeding rate of poor people’. To me that’s patronising and verging on totalitarian eugenics. Why not ‘help raise the aspirations of poor people instead of sterilising them’?
Also, seeing as this one isn’t going away, I’m going to reply to Ringo as well.
quote: If everyone was an academic, or even well qualified, who would do the menial jobs like shop work and operating machines in factories?
The lower classes are the foundation of society, they may be impoverished but they provide services and do jobs which nobody would do otherwise.
Discuss.
I think it’s immensely patronising to lump people in ‘menial’ jobs in with the mad reproducing chav scum. People with menial jobs might claim a bit of benefit – child support and so on. But they are still economically active and playing a vital role in society. There is a distinction between the underclass –those that have never worked, are in families with third generation unemployment etc and the working classes – those who do the menial jobs which a number of people on here seem to manage to miss, spectacularly.
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posted
There is a saying, that if you think your job is important, ask yourself; What would happen if I didn’t do my job for three days? For a few people, nothing is going to change too drastically. So ask yourself; What happens when the street cleaners, binmen, care workers, nurses or hospital porters, didn’t do their job for three days?
It places a lot in perspective as to your role in society.
posted
Thing is, at the moment the people that do the "skilled" jobs* pay a lot of income tax. If you stopped paying good money to these people then they would have no value at all to society. There would be no incentive at all to ever learn how to do anything and we'd all just go around cleaning up each other's shit and complaining that you can never get an accountant these days, and how you had to get your www.ace-strit-swepper.co.uk website developed by an imported coloured person
* Skilled jobs = jobs they've had to spend a bit of time learning how to do, as opposed to just picking up bin bags and chucking them in the back of a lorry which can be learned in as little as two months under the right tuition though the training staff would presumably get paid very little to pass on their skills as they would just be training people and not actually picking up rubbish bags themselves.
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posted
It wasn't a jab at anyone in particular. Some people who work here though, are certainly proud of what they do. They walk around with an air of smugness and superiority. They look down on the temporary workers, as if the contractual obligations make them more respectable.
I don't know what you mean about paying more income tax though. Seeing how its percentage and bracket based.
posted
Christ, I'm going insane. When you said "here" I thought you meant here, on the forum. I maybe should take a break, eh.
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quote:Originally posted by Louche: I think it’s immensely patronising to lump people in ‘menial’ jobs in with the mad reproducing chav scum. People with menial jobs might claim a bit of benefit – child support and so on. But they are still economically active and playing a vital role in society. There is a distinction between the underclass –those that have never worked, are in families with third generation unemployment etc and the working classes – those who do the menial jobs which a number of people on here seem to manage to miss, spectacularly.
Do you really believe that those in what you call the "underclass" would ever have it any other way, regardless of incentive?
For most of these people, the concept of education is as alien as the concept of the menstrual cycle is to a man. By that, I mean it's something they're aware of, and may even know a little about, but have no real interest in as it doesn't apply to them. They aren't necessaraly stupid, nor are they physically unable to work, but the concept of working is not something they ever give any real consideration to, simply because they are proud of how they live. For anyone to suggest that they might live any other way is insulting to them and patronising.
I don't want to sound defeatist, but there will always be this hard core of people who segregate themselves from society and choose to live a different way. The only opinions they listen to are their own, making the notion of change completely obsolete.
The real question you have to ask yourself, is why you find this unacceptable? Is it simply because it conflicts with your ideas of how to run your life? If so, then why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Do you think that it would improve them as people, make them nicer to be around? You're simply making an assumption here that you can improve the quality of their lives and their characters simply by making them more like you, which is arrogant to say the least. It's this arrogance which repels them, and all of the condescending, do-gooding 'outreach' programs in the world wont make a blind bit of difference to how they see themselves in the world.
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quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: It wasn't a jab at anyone in particular.
And I wasn't having a jab back, I was just pointing out a possible downside to paying the best salaries to those that do unskilled jobs, however unsavoury those jobs might be.
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: Some people who work here though, are certainly proud of what they do. They walk around with an air of smugness and superiority. They look down on the temporary workers, as if the contractual obligations make them more respectable.
Yes, well those are just smug and self-worshipping people. They may be found in all strata of society. The thing is, there can be few if any jobs which are of no value to anyone at all, whatever their level of skill, or people wouldn't get employed to do them. And people usually accept that they will have to pay more money to someone who has learned a skill which they themselves don't have time to learn or are incapable of learning. No one's going to pay top dollar to a binman or a street sweeper because they'd instinctively know how to do that job for themselves, if they had to.
quote:Originally posted by New Way Of Decay: I don't know what you mean about paying more income tax though. Seeing how its percentage and bracket based.
No, I didn't say anything about paying more tax. What I meant was, skilled workers earn more and therefore pay higher rates of tax than unskilled workers. This gives the skilled workers a valuable role in society - their tax pays for lots of lovely things which lower paid workers wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. If you suddenly said that the more pleasant and comfortable the job = the lower the pay = the lower the tax, then skilled workers would suddenly be of little value to society because they would be neither doing those valuable and completely essential jobs like care nursing or sewage cleaning, nor contributing much tax for the greater good of society.
posted
The chance is that I’m getting aerated over semantics but your language and approach are anathema to me.
What a nice way of telling me my views are abhorrent to you. I mean that in a nice way Louche, no sarcasm intended. It's not something I'm proud of, and maybe it's something of an attitude that I need to take stock of and adjust.. I never used to feel like it - Problem is now I do, something changed me, something changed my views and my opinions somewhere along the way.
I’m not sure how much evidence there is that there are benefit babies and fashion accessory babies. Perhaps this goes on to some extent. But I’ve worked in regeneration for about 5 years now and it’s not something that’s been seen as a big issue by any of the people I’ve worked with.
Regeneration, for 5 years ? - What is it that you do ? I can only assume that you speak from a position of authority on this matter and therefore have a greater understanding on all that is involved.
My views and opinions are based solely upon what I see and experience first hand. I'm sure that if you say it's not viewed as a big issue by any of the people you've worked with that either there are greater problems out there that need addressing first or that the problem really is as small as to not be worth addressing.
The other thing is this whole assumption that we need to slow down breeding. Demographics repeatedly show that, with better health care and better lives, people are living longer and the population is getting top heavy. To support this population we need more children and young people to fill vital roles. Governments are talking about having to utilize immigrant labor in the future. So why the need to slow down breeding?
Rather than stop the poor having kids I’d say, isn’t it a better idea to educate the kids of the poor? Then they can get jobs and pay tax and support the country generally. Educate them about sexual health as well and perhaps they'll have fewer children and perhaps not.
What I really don’t like about your posts is the we need to slow down the breeding rate of poor people. To me that’s patronising and verging on totalitarian eugenics. Why not help raise the aspirations of poor people instead of sterilising them ?
I agree totally. I think that the first step should be to educate the kids of the poor. To raise their aspirations, to offer them the same chance as everyone else, it's something I'd love to see happen in my lifetime. Something has to change. Where do you start though, that is the question? I think that a capping of the birth rate would help, I think that maybe a few less children in areas that are struggling financially (and not just the UK here I mean world wide) would free up some resources and possibly some finances that could be plowed into education and open up a few more avenues for a few more people. The world you mention which is top heavy (and when you say this I assume you mean with a greater population of over retired, older people) worries me too. Children born for the sole purpose of looking after the elderly ? How can that be right ? Ok, you could argue that the very reason we have children is to have someone to look after us in our twilight years, but if the twilight years go on and on and on what sort of life are these kids going to have ? Will the world start to revolve around a different demographic, no longer the 25 to 35 year old at the top of the food chain but the 55 – 60 year old ? The further down that road you go the further into “Logans Run” you stumble.
And perhaps bringing in immigrant workers isn’t a bad thing, as long as we don’t treat them like slaves and we give them access to the same rights and privileges that everyone else should be entitled to.
The birth rate is something we can change, we need not have children – There’s not much we can do about living longer.
I’ve seen your vision for a perfect world in the Utopia thread, and whilst I agree with it and admire the sentiment without making some drastic change somewhere I fail to see how we’re going to make the change.
I’m sorry that you find my opinion so vile, I’m sure there’s middle ground here somewhere. Perhaps you can help me find it ?
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: The real question you have to ask yourself, is why you find this unacceptable? Is it simply because it conflicts with your ideas of how to run your life? If so, then why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Do you think that it would improve them as people, make them nicer to be around? You're simply making an assumption here that you can improve the quality of their lives and their characters simply by making them more like you, which is arrogant to say the least. It's this arrogance which repels them, and all of the condescending, do-gooding 'outreach' programs in the world wont make a blind bit of difference to how they see themselves in the world.
Assumptions indeed. You criticise Louche for 'speaking for' the underclass then in the next sentence do the exact same thing yourself.
What is this, the World Ventriloquism Play-Offs?
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quote:Originally posted by Ringo: The real question you have to ask yourself, is why you find this unacceptable? Is it simply because it conflicts with your ideas of how to run your life? If so, then why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Do you think that it would improve them as people, make them nicer to be around? You're simply making an assumption here that you can improve the quality of their lives and their characters simply by making them more like you, which is arrogant to say the least.
Maybe I'm sticking my oar in, but this is just fucking nonsensical.
If the people we're fretting about had grown up with access to good quality education, amenities and a halfway decent living environment you might be able to hold forth about how they'd somehow 'chosen' a particular way of life.
What we're talking about, though, is people who've grown up on shithole estates, (sometimes) gone to run-down schools and who simply haven't the access to the resources that most of us consider a right. The opportunities you take for granted are denied to a substantial number of people living in this country - trying to extend those opportunities isn't "arrogance", at the very worst, it's enlightened self-interest - no society can ever feel particularly comfortable with part of its population condemned to rot in a wasteland.
This may offend your sensibilities, Ringo, but there may be ever such a slight connection between zero opportunity and zero aspiration - it's supremely condescending to declare (much in the manner of some sort of aristocratic throwback) that those without the facilities to help them do so "aren't interested" in learning or bettering themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by Darryn.R: I’m sorry that you find my opinion so vile, I’m sure there’s middle ground here somewhere. Perhaps you can help me find it ?
You are really hoping, aren't you Darryn? These people cannot even begin to see that some of us who do not see things through their rose-tinted glasses have a point, let alone reach some sort of reasonable middle ground. They'll always see anything that doesn't pander to their altrustic world view as vile.
They work in their "outreach" programmes, wave their hands in victory when they achieve a 2% success rate or when a serial recidivist manages to stay out of jail for nine months rather than six - because it is a success, after all - and then have the temerity to preach to the rest of us on how we should live while throwing rocks from their nice little ivory towers.
My initial post on here, while harshly worded, was ample food for debate, something that has been seriously lacking around here with all the sloppy chate about meats. Instead I was jumped on. In days gone by I would have stuck it out, but these days I can't really be arsed. I have my views, they have theirs. So long as we keep out of each others' faces, fine.
There have been some well-written comments on here, which is heartening. But I'd rather read than comment too much. Many on here see me as some sort of ogre, but all things considered I'd see myself as fairly reasonable. I just want to live my life happily and get along. Thatisall.
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quote:Originally posted by Ringo: When people wont speak for themselves, what are we to do other than make assumptions?
Clue: have a good, hard think about who does have a voice in our society and who doesn't. Most of the national media in this country is controlled by the super-rich; much of the rest of it is the preserve of the articulate middle class -- who gets to scream the loudest, that being the case? Who hogs all the big megaphones?
And who never gets heard - and is it really brave or intelligent to reproach them for their lack of a voice?
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posted
YOU were not jumped upon cock. The world does not revolve around you. I used your question of what we should do to criticise what was being said by you and others. Pull your head out of your arse and stop being such an arrogant fucking prick.
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posted
As you so viciously point out, everything we're saying is based on assumptions.
Perhaps, though ben, perhaps I am in a slightly better position to talk about this, knowing people who do live like this and are actually relatively happy to do so. Decent people who aren't actually 'chavs' but for whom certain social influences caused them to drop out of school. The same school with the same resources that I went to.
I seem to remember you making the point ages ago, that parental influence is stronger than anything that people like us or the government may do for the 'greater good'.
Is it so hard to accept that a lot of these people are simply happy and content with their lives?
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: They work in their "outreach" programmes, wave their hands in victory when they achieve a 2% success rate or when a serial recidivist manages to stay out of jail for nine months rather than six - because it is a success, after all - and then have the temerity to preach to the rest of us on how we should live while throwing rocks from their nice little ivory towers.
If "2%" equates to several hundred people staying out of prison, that's already saved "you, the taxpayer" several thousands of pounds; probably helped keep a whole bunch of families together and thereby made a far more lasting and far-reaching positive contribution to the country we live in than any 'freelance web developer' - or, for that matter, 'press officer' - is ever likely to make.
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: In days gone by I would have stuck it out, but these days I can't really be arsed.
Well just leave then and don't come back. That would certainly be a more constructive approach than popping up to complain all the time or whenever someone mentions your name like some kind of cut-price Candyman.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Many on here see me as some sort of ogre
No dude, they don't. This idea of you as TMO's own Big Bad or anti-hero was invented by you and lives only in your head. Your post would have been more accurate had it said "Many on here see me as some guy with a load of odious opinions."
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quote:Originally posted by ben: What we're talking about, though, is people who've grown up on shithole estates, (sometimes) gone to run-down schools and who simply haven't the access to the resources that most of us consider a right.
I think most of us on here could confidently assume that the places where these people live and go to school were not built as shitholes. They have made them so.
It's like the tale I was told by a rather attractive schoolteacher when I was in the Czech Republic. She said that when she was a little girl in the 1970s her parents (both of whom worked in the municipal council) had been very sympathetic to the plight of the Romanies, and had actively supported the building of new accommodation for them. Like her parents, she was convinced that Romanies were ordinary folks just like any other, and would fit in. She welcomed the idea of having Romany neighbours and having new kids to play with. Her attitude changed somewhat when within a couple of years the spanking new apartments were ripped to pieces by these erstwhile itinerants, who chose to rip out all the fixtures and fittings and in one case turn a thirteenth-story apartment into a stable.
When her face soured at the mention of a fully-grown mare having to be put down because it couldn't be transported down the elevator, one of the others I was with creased up his face, and uttered "but it's their culture."
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
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quote:Originally posted by Bamba: Your post would have been more accurate had it said "Many on here see me as some guy with a load of odious opinions."
Fair dos.
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quote:Originally posted by squirrelandgman: YOU were not jumped upon cock. The world does not revolve around you. I used your question of what we should do to criticise what was being said by you and others. Pull your head out of your arse and stop being such an arrogant fucking prick.
It didn't sound like that, squirrelman. In the past you have just stepped in and delivered an off-topic sarcastic broadside, and I saw your comments this time as just more of the same.
Now that you've clarified your position, fair enough.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Trying to have some sort of debate on here is fucking fruitless.
quote: Ah, the sorry lives of the working classes. These people should have bromide added to their water and cheap value lager supply.
How could a debate be pointless, with posters who can offer such thoughtful contributions?
Oh wait, was this part of your exaggerated online persona? Are you a caricature or not this week, I don't seem to have got the memo.
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quote:Originally posted by Ringo: As you so viciously point out, everything we're saying is based on assumptions.
Perhaps, though ben, perhaps I am in a slightly better position to talk about this, knowing people who do live like this and are actually relatively happy to do so. Decent people who aren't actually 'chavs' but for whom certain social influences caused them to drop out of school. The same school with the same resources that I went to.
Well we'd maybe better pin down what we're talking about. I thought that 'chavs' - for want of a better word - were exactly what we were talking about. And while your pals maybe perfectly happy with their lot (good luck to them, whatever it is) there are an awful lot of people who aren't - for whom life in the UK is pretty much drudgery and desperation from the word go.
Saying "well my guys over here are happy, what's the problem?" doesn't really prove anything.
quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I seem to remember you making the point ages ago, that parental influence is stronger than anything that people like us or the government may do for the 'greater good'.
Yes, but come on. Parents aren't the only influence - there's education, environment, peers etc etc. Those latter three the state can have a major positive impact on.
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though the training staff would presumably get paid very little to pass on their skills as they would just be training people and not actually picking up rubbish bags themselves.
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