Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:I wish I lived in a world where having a nice car and a bit of money made you a happy, well adjusted human being, really I do, but that's not the reality of things, is it.
You're making assumptions about my life here, which I don't really appreciate.
Ringo, I am not saying that having a nice car and money makes you happy. If you’ve read any of my posts on here you’d appreciate that I don’t think this. By bringing this down to ‘I’ve got this but I’m still depressed’ you’re skewing the original discussion, which appeared to me to be about whether people on sink estates deserved help or not.
The only assumptions I’ve made about your life is that you are physically comfortable and have the intellectual and actual wherewithal to change it if you so desire. This is in comparison to some of the people I run projects for. I am not, and never would deny that people can be depressed for myriad reasons. What you seemed to be saying is that people on sink estates get a better deal than you. I think this is simply wrong. People on sink estates live in shit accommodation, have no work, have no cars and sometimes can’t read. They don’t have the means or the knowledge to access support unless it’s taken to their doorsteps. In contrast, you have internet access and can look up Information, Advice and Guidance services to advise you about education and training and how to fund it. You have a car; you could drive to your local FE college and see a career’s advisor for the same thing. If you’re not registered at a local GP to access treatment for depression, it isn’t a difficult job for you to get there and register. All these things are nigh impossible in most estates in Salford.
quote:Perhaps your schemes aren't aimed at people like him, but plenty are, plenty of educational places who are willing to give him courses for free, giving him more qualifications than I've got, because I can't even afford to do it. As I say, I can't really blame anyone other than myself, but there are plenty of people who have had all the breaks I've had and, because they fucked it up worse than I did, now they're being given even more chances.
Point One: all education is free until you are 18. After you are 18, basic skills, ‘first rung’ i.e. basic computer, English for Speakers of Other Languages is free. That is it. Different places offer different schemes. Have you asked? Have you been to your FE College, Higher Education Institute and checked things out? Most schemes for assistance have some loan element, whether you’re in work or otherwise.
quote:But then I've got enough compassion to actually understand that people can be depressed no matter what their situation, and that their pain is just as valid as anyone elses. I would never be so flippant as to say they're self pitying, or to say they're talking shite.
You’re skewing the discussion again. I do think, in comparison to being the son of a crack whore in Coldhurst Ward, Oldham (100% of the population living under the poverty line) you’re doing alright. You’re eating. You’re housed. You’re working. You’re bright. You speak English. This doesn’t mean that people with money and cars are automatically deserving of derision. It simply means you’re better off than some.
Also, honestly, in the nicest way, and without being patronising, if there’s something you want to do, college or training wise, ask me. I work in the sector. If I can’t help, I can at least point you in the right direction.
Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
posted
Also, Darryn, I was poised to email you, actually, when I got distracted by having a 'discussion'. It was an excellent post and I really appreciated what you put into the response. My apologies for appearing to ignore it.
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I'm afraid that, unless MK College are willing to pay my debts while I'm not working, there's no way they can help me make any kind of change in my life.
But this isnt about me at all, so let's not dwell on it, eh?
I still maintain that there are a great deal of people who you can't reach, no matter how hard you try to help them, simply because they are unwilling to accept any help, or make any changes in their lives. This isn't to say it's impossible to help anyone, of course it's not, but some people are very proud of how they live. It's Human nature for those who are at the bottom of the ladder to morally elevate themselves to the top. If you want an example, read back to Mikee saying about how the temporary staff make a much bigger difference and are far more important than the management. For people in that position, the suggestion that they might improve their lives (with which they feel perfectly contented) by making themselves more like the people they actually feel superior to, is insulting.
Again, coming back to my mate, any time I suggest he might make a change, think about getting a job, he get's defensive. We've had massive rows about it. And at the end of the day it's really hypocritical for me to say these things to him anyway, considering it's really brought me no happiness either.
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i would like it very much if i could be the first person to say this thread should be archived. seeing as that has been my only contribution to it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ringo: I still maintain that there are a great deal of people who you can't reach, no matter how hard you try to help them, simply because they are unwilling to accept any help, or make any changes in their lives.
It's a balance, isn't it - but it can't be a free ride. The story you tell about the person who's goofing off all day and playing playstation is worrying, because it implies the "aid" comes without any mandate of responsible behavior. I'm a firm believer that dole/welfare programs must be available, and that they must exist only to help recipients reach a point at which they support themselves to the maximum they are capable (this hedge on my argument is supplied to account for those who are genuinely disabled).
In the simplest "ideal" sense, a person would receive some aid, whatever job skills training and job search or housing guidance they need, and then be expected to accept a reasonable solution when presented to them. The expectation is that adults must support themselves. If they choose not to, that's fine with me; people have the right to choose the path they want, but they can't expect to be supported by tax dollars indefinately.
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I went out and the thread quaprupled in size! So, apologies for the delay.....
Louche, I'm really curious about the work that you do, because I was brought up in a run-down working class community, and the only way I stayed sane and achieved anything at all was because I left at the earliest possible opportunity. Do you actually get results? You know, turn round the culture of failure, get people moving forward, and so on? How do you measure the success of your work? What is the success:failure ratio? My memories of northern working class communities are not good ones. They will beat you up if you go into the library (this actually happened to me when I was 14 - I got my nose broken) and they did destroy their environment with vandalism, theft, and the like. The women did have children inordinately young, because there was nothing else for them to do. I don't feel sorry for them, and I have no desire to try and help them, and I don't actually care about the social injustice of it all, because the poor deprived community made my life a living hell up to the age of 17 when I escaped. I do think the situation needs to change, though, if for no other reason than I'd hate anyone else to go through what I went through.
And I stand by my point about childbearing and childrearing being for the most part women's work. I am happy to use anecdotal evidence, because everyone else has. My friend Juliette was in tears on the phone to me the other day. Her waster ex, and father of her 2 kids, sent a postcard from Africa for the youngest's birthday. She's not had a penny from him in over a decade. She's skint as fuck. She googled child support and the first six sites were dedicated to men seeking to avoid paying maintenance. My friend Chris had 2 kids, she works full time, cooks, cleans, looks after the kids when they're ill, does around 70% of the housework, while her husband, a lovely Guardian-reading man who works in special needs, considers doing the washing up and playing with the kids at the weekend a fair split of the domestic workload. Neither of them are unusual. In fact, they're the norm, rather than the exception.
The testosterone loaded male response to fatherhood is something I was privy to when I worked as a tour/production manager. It was not pleasant. I also encountered it in the depths of working class poverty, where a man would not let his girlfriend breastfeed the baby because her tits were for his enjoyment only.
Time and again we hear of the inequalities in the division of domestic labour, as well as economic divisions too - not only is there still a significant gender pay gap, on average a woman will lose 1/3rd of her earnings over a lifetime if she has kids. If I sound Greer-ian, that may well be because the issues that the '70's feminists were arguing about haven't gone away. The occasional dad-enacted nappy change isn't that radical.
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Well, it's difficult to see how anyone could hope to counterbalance such pungent examples of malefeasance as those you quote. I suppose the various male friends of mine who've had kids, who are currently taking on at the very least - some times more than - their fair share of the unmitigated burden of child-rearing can be dismissed at a stroke because, let's face it, it'll only be a few years before they show their true colours, right?
Similarly, if we trip back a generation we can see that the legions of parents (some of them male!) who have stuck with it and raised kids and made all the sacrifices that entails - is it not possible that the whole thing is a disgusting charade cooked up to perpetuate the marriage/spawning conspiracy?
Blah-de-blah. I suppose, Ally, we could trade good-dad versus bad-dad stories till the cows came home - I could provide a raft of bad-dad stories of my own, and not a few from my own family. I'm not sure, at the end of the day, that's going to prove anything. It's possible to develop and maintain a jaundiced outlook on just about any aspect of life - there's enough evidence floating around to support any tendentious view that's hungry enought to hoover it up - but that purview is rarely going to reflect much of the true range and variety and contradictoriness (wUrD?) of human nature. I reckon.
Looking back at your initial post, I'm sorry that people have given you a hard time and imposed their own expectations onto you and your partner. For my own part, I think that sort of behaviour is crass and invasive - even when 'well-meant' or coming from a close relative. My own 'pie-eyed' expression of how I feel about the prospect of having kids wasn't meant to inflame or disrespect anyone who's made a decision not to have kids, more a riposte to the pretty one dimensional picture (dirty nappies, alien child, saggy tits) that seemed at that point in the thread to prevail.
Ultimately, there are as many good and valid reasons for not having kids as there are couples who are arguing the toss - "all men are dogs" is pure cartoon, though, and reeks of an over-defensive attitude masquerading as hard-nosed realism.
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A surplus underclass of poor people will often arise in capitalist societies. This is because the number of people in a given country cannot be changed as quickly as other variables such as the output of goods or the location of factories.
Any capitalist must maximise profits by locating where resources are cheapest. Humans are currently cheapest in China.
However the underclass, although not productive, also perform many useful functions in their home country. Distractions such as daytime television, computer games and drugs help to prevent them from forming large organised groups which might threaten the current social order.
1) They provide markets for cheap, poor-quality products which could not otherwise be sold, such as clown pendants.
2) They provide markets for financial services such as loans at interest rates which would not be accepted by the better-off.
3) They tend to use drugs more than other classes leading to increased profits for smugglers, chemical companies and banks. Cigarettes are also much more popular among the poor.
4) They commit property crimes such as burglary, resulting in increased profits for insurance companies, security firms and manufacturers who replace the stolen goods.
5) They act as a warning to those just above them on the social ladder as to what will happen to them should they fail to perform in their jobs.
If the underclass were all given well-paid jobs the result would be runaway price and wage inflation which could cause a run on the banks and a crisis among the investor class. Sometimes the UK government needs to increase the size of the underclass, as in the early 90's, by increasing interest rates to control inflation. This is called 'demand destruction'. Any time the UK government announces full or near-full employment, as in 1989 or 2004, is a time for those in employment to be extremely wary.
It is essential for capitalism that a significant section of society must continue to live in poverty and therefore this situation will always continue.
Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:I simply used the 2% figure to highlight the attitude of those - like Ben with his "well at least that's something" attitude - who crow about how successful these projects have been when in reality the difference has been negligible.
From what I have seen and read about most of these projects - yes, from what I have seen and read - much of the success is only short-term, with many of the beneficiaries seeing it as a free ride and an opportunity to take the piss. The little that I know about it can't be all wrong, after all; I would assume that in the course of your career you have encountered a good number of this freeloaders and piss-takers.
You talk about the success stories; how people have gone on to bigger and better things. Yes, that's fantastic. But for every one of those people who goes on to get a decent qualification, how many find themselves needing to be picked up again? How many go back to their old lives because they simply can't stick it out going straight? How many, despite the better life you may have shown them, find the idea of of hanging aimlessly on street corners with their druggie mates better than going to work?
This, like Ringo’s assumption that there’s always a hardcore of people who don’t want to be helped, holds some partial truth. There are people who can’t or won’t, for various reasons, change what they do. But to prevent a majority from being able to access help just because, say, 20% won’t be changed is completely defeatist and rather unfair on those who do move on. If you had a ward full of malaria patients, of whom 20% were destined for death, would you use that as an excuse to refuse treatment to all?
There are success stories. Where projects are about changing lives and perceptions, lives and perceptions are changed. You talk about improving facilities leading solely to the destruction of those facilities. This is unutterable bollocks. Three words: New East Manchester. In 1998, East Manchester had some of the worst levels of unemployment, poor housing, crime, health problems, families with restraining orders etc. There was a concerted effort to change that. Facilities were built. Employers encouraged to come in. Much as I disapprove of WalMart (*spit*) there’s a huge one there providing ridiculous amounts of employment. First North Western was persuaded to run buses there on a more frequent basis. An Adult Learning Centre opened in a tatty shop. The three schools – all in ‘serious concerns’ (i.e. none of the poor fuckers going to them was actually getting an education) had new heads appointed and were turned around. Kids were collected off the street and bused toswimming pools and leisure centres and arts centres in Manchester – facilities which were already there and available at low cost, but which none of them had had the bollocks or knowledge to go to before. Result? New East Manchester is now registering, not as a leafy suburb, no, but as a reasonably affluent area. All the above happened on a smaller scale in Hulme. I think this is fucking brilliant. I also happen to think, in practical economics, it’s bloody useful. Fewer unemployed, more people in decent homes, more people paying tax, more people paying council tax, services start to pay for themselves rather than being funded as part of a regeneration push, East Manchester and Hulme become less of a drain on Manchester’s resources. Excellent all round, I feel. Ally, I hope this answers your questions as well.
Things can change; things do change, and using a few completely unreachables as a pretext for consigning many others to a dustbin of poverty is just not valid.
Interestingly for you, Snorton, the only place I have worked where I have felt utterly defeated was Serbia. I ran Soros and EU funded exchange/conflict resolution/ training things in Serbia for a couple of years. Whilst I felt it worked in the short term – kids from Salford realised their lives weren’t that bad after all, Serbian youth workers got some excellent training, a few people’s lives were changed, in the long term I felt nothing more than the crushing weight of the racism and prejudice and division. What terrifies me is that I’ve seen the same levels of hatred in Oldham and Burnley. I felt there was very very little that could be done in Serbia – particularly in a climate of government corruption and apathy – to change the course of the country. And this makes me extremely passionate about changing Oldham.
quote: It's a balance, isn't it - but it can't be a free ride. The story you tell about the person who's goofing off all day and playing playstation is worrying, because it implies the "aid" comes without any mandate of responsible behavior.
In the most case it isn’t the free ride that people assume it to be. You can’t get JobSeekers Allowance without proving you’re looking for a job. From September benefits will be cut for people who don’t attend mandatory basic training. Essentially, if you turn up at your local office and have zero skills, continuing to claim benefit will be dependent on you making yourself employable. The whole system is in need of a radical overhaul, I’m happy to admit that. But whilst there needs to be systems in place to stop people claiming and defrauding, it shouldn’t penalise those who can’t work.
quote: Ultimately, there are as many good and valid reasons for not having kids as there are couples who are arguing the toss - "all men are dogs" is pure cartoon, though, and reeks of an over-defensive attitude masquerading as hard-nosed realism.
Ben, I'm not suggesting that "all men are dogs." However, there is a massive disparity in the domestic workload between men and women, and while we could indeed trade good-dad-bad-dad stories, the point I'm trying to make is that even with the good dads, the division of labour is unequal. There may be the occasional exception that proves the rule, but that doesn't invalidate what I'm saying. Go past any primary school in the country at 8.45am and the majority of parents delivering children to the gates are women. Go to any doctors surgery and the majority of ill children will be accompanied by their mothers. Go to any supermarket, and the majority of trollies with kids in the kiddies seats will be being pushed by women. It is not to do with whether or not men are malevolent, although I've encountered many who are. It's to do with the way that parenting is organised across British society.
quote: Looking back at your initial post, I'm sorry that people have given you a hard time and imposed their own expectations onto you and your partner. For my own part, I think that sort of behaviour is crass and invasive - even when 'well-meant' or coming from a close relative. My own 'pie-eyed' expression of how I feel about the prospect of having kids wasn't meant to inflame or disrespect anyone who's made a decision not to have kids, more a riposte to the pretty one dimensional picture (dirty nappies, alien child, saggy tits) that seemed at that point in the thread to prevail.
Point taken. I accept I was perhaps just the teensiest bit on the defensive. However, while you have the good grace to know that commenting on others' childbearing choices is rude and invasive, I can assure you you're very much in the minority. To be fair, it has got better as I've got older (I'm now age 34 and getting more militant by the year) but the number of people, in both me personal and professional life, who have seen fit to comment on my reproductive choices is quite staggering. And if I had become pregnant, the number of people who would comment on, and touch, my body, would be equally remarkable. I've a heavily pregnant friend who is regularly touched by strangers on buses, in supermarket queues and the like. A pregnant woman seems to lose autonomy in the eyes of the world - she is merely a vessel that carries a more precious cargo. I'm amazed at her patence, quite frankly. The personal choice, and personal experience, of becoming a mother, is far more subject to debate, comment, and reaction and engagement by others, that is commonly acknowledged. That is what really annoys me.
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quote: There are success stories. Where projects are about changing lives and perceptions, lives and perceptions are changed. You talk about improving facilities leading solely to the destruction of those facilities. This is unutterable bollocks. Three words: New East Manchester. In 1998, East Manchester had some of the worst levels of unemployment, poor housing, crime, health problems, families with restraining orders etc. There was a concerted effort to change that. Facilities were built. Employers encouraged to come in. Much as I disapprove of WalMart (*spit*) there’s a huge one there providing ridiculous amounts of employment. First North Western was persuaded to run buses there on a more frequent basis. An Adult Learning Centre opened in a tatty shop. The three schools – all in ‘serious concerns’ (i.e. none of the poor fuckers going to them was actually getting an education) had new heads appointed and were turned around. Kids were collected off the street and bused toswimming pools and leisure centres and arts centres in Manchester – facilities which were already there and available at low cost, but which none of them had had the bollocks or knowledge to go to before. Result? New East Manchester is now registering, not as a leafy suburb, no, but as a reasonably affluent area. All the above happened on a smaller scale in Hulme. I think this is fucking brilliant. I also happen to think, in practical economics, it’s bloody useful. Fewer unemployed, more people in decent homes, more people paying tax, more people paying council tax, services start to pay for themselves rather than being funded as part of a regeneration push, East Manchester and Hulme become less of a drain on Manchester’s resources. Excellent all round, I feel. Ally, I hope this answers your questions as well.
That is indeed an excellent result. Is the project going to develop as well? Will the residents be encouraged to move beyond a career in Wal-Mart? I'm interested in the potential longevity of the change, its scope to develop. I'm maybe a little bit bitter and cynical, (I'm sure you can understand why,) but I remember when I left school (with nothing, I didn't go from the age of 14 because there's no point in going somewhere you get beaten up on a daily basis) I was encouraged to apply for a job in Iceland. The poverty of expectation in the area of your project has undoubtably been addressed, but is it going to be left as it is, or are there plans for further regeneration. Is there the understanding that once the improvement process has started it will take on a life of its own, or will external involvement continue to improve the area?
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quote:Originally posted by Louche: But to prevent a majority from being able to access help just because, say, 20% won’t be changed is completely defeatist and rather unfair on those who do move on. If you had a ward full of malaria patients, of whom 20% were destined for death, would you use that as an excuse to refuse treatment to all?
Put this way, it would sound heartless if I were not to agree...
I think my attitude has a lot to do with my fundamental belief that every human being, provided the opportunities exist, has the innate ability to rise above and beyond where they might be at. Many of those in this country who find themselves at the bottom of the pile probably have themselves to blame: there are opportunities to be had; there are facilities if they want to find them; there are jobs if they really want to look hard enough.
If we were living in a third world country which had a system in place (such as that in Brazil) that actively discriminates against persons from particular social backgrounds, your argument would hold far more weight.
Rather than having a system that has to deal with a raft of individual cases (many of which may be beyond repair) I would rather we get the problem by the throat and sort out the general attitudes that exist in these communities. If it means chaining kids to a desk while forcing the parents to attend lessons in better parenting, so be it.
quote:There are success stories. Where projects are about changing lives and perceptions, lives and perceptions are changed. You talk about improving facilities leading solely to the destruction of those facilities. This is unutterable bollocks. Three words: New East Manchester.
Having never been to East Manchester to witness this fantastic revival, I will take you at your word.
quote:Much as I disapprove of WalMart (*spit*) there’s a huge one there providing ridiculous amounts of employment.
That's fine - but is there anything beyond this? I seriously doubt that the person happily claiming benefit would give this up for what would probably amount to less for spending the rest of their lives stacking shelves with tins of baked beans.
quote:Kids were collected off the street...
I like the sound of this. If they are all taken in, such schemes may well work. I was under the assumption that most of these things were voluntary (and therefore always bound to fail, IMO).
quote:Interestingly for you, Snorton, the only place I have worked where I have felt utterly defeated was Serbia. [...] What terrifies me is that I’ve seen the same levels of hatred in Oldham and Burnley. I felt there was very very little that could be done in Serbia – particularly in a climate of government corruption and apathy – to change the course of the country. And this makes me extremely passionate about changing Oldham.
I think the only real way to solve some of the problems in the Balkans was to separate the various religious and ethnic groups; trying to make people get along - which was probably your intention while out there - was always going to be futile given the long and bloody history of the region. What I fear about places like Oldham is that the influx of large numbers of people with a markedly different set of cultural and social values has made what was already a place in decline slip even quicker down the tube: I fear, in a sense, a sort of Balkanisation in some of these areas.
I really do hope that you can achieve what you want to achieve, and do wish you all the best in what you are doing; rather you than me though. In truth, this is something where I would actually like to be proved wrong.
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:Originally posted by ally: That is indeed an excellent result. Is the project going to develop as well? Will the residents be encouraged to move beyond a career in Wal-Mart? I'm interested in the potential longevity of the change, its scope to develop. I'm maybe a little bit bitter and cynical, (I'm sure you can understand why,) but I remember when I left school (with nothing, I didn't go from the age of 14 because there's no point in going somewhere you get beaten up on a daily basis) I was encouraged to apply for a job in Iceland. The poverty of expectation in the area of your project has undoubtably been addressed, but is it going to be left as it is, or are there plans for further regeneration. Is there the understanding that once the improvement process has started it will take on a life of its own, or will external involvement continue to improve the area?
With New East Manchester - and with the single example of WalMart - I was trying to illustrate how an area can move from abject and unutterable deprivation to something more. The thing about regeneration work is that some tends to equal more. Open the Adult Learning Centre, and then encourage colleges to send in careers advisors. Revamp the health centre and then get Brook Advisory to do drop in. Encourage in WalMart, build some leisure facilities, and you have the starting blocks. What tends to happen then - and has happened in Hulme and East Manchester - is that the established services, such as the youth service, connexions, Information Advice and Guidance etc, then have a platform to work from. Regeneration of the kind I described is the starting point, and a true fact of life in the public sector is that funding attracts funding, you tend to end up with more and better services coming from the initial work. The intial work is about getting people off street corners/ out of the poverty trap. Further projects and established services are about helping those who want to go further. Whilst I more than appreciate the point both you and Snorton made about working at WalMart hardly being a career, for some people it's what they want. Mothers with children appreciate the work, the hours, the sociability. Some men feel driving a fork lift truck and having cash at the end of the week for beer and a new shirt is an excellent state of affairs. Like I've reiterated all along, there needs to be a working class, though, of course, people with abilities and aspirations above WalMart shouldn't be so without opportunity that they can't move on.
Snorton, re the kids collected off the streets, in my experience, all it needs to get the majority of kids off the streets is a couple of good outreach workers offering something more exciting to do. The majority of 14 year old lads, whether on a council estate or in leafy cheshire, would rather be flying round the veoldrome, trying to break their necks on a skatepark or recording their own appalling rap than risking life and limb from gang warfare.
quote:I think the only real way to solve some of the problems in the Balkans was to separate the various religious and ethnic groups; trying to make people get along - which was probably your intention while out there - was always going to be futile given the long and bloody history of the region. What I fear about places like Oldham is that the influx of large numbers of people with a markedly different set of cultural and social values has made what was already a place in decline slip even quicker down the tube: I fear, in a sense, a sort of Balkanisation in some of these areas.
I really don't know what can be done to 'sort' the Balkans. I've met enough younger people out there who are horrified and disgusted by what happened, who desperately want to change their country to think that it might be possible. But the government, corruption, bribes, scandals etc seem to counteract their every step. The solution is probably reform at every level, but that's going to be a painfully slow process and in the meantime poverty and old grudges will remain the order of the day. One of the problems remains the poor state of the infrastructure; so much money pays for replacing buildings and modernising roads and pipelines that there's little left over, especially after the government officials have taken their cut, for programmes which look at effective harmonisation.
With Oldham the problem in essence wasn't the influx of the Bangladeshis and the Mipuris, it was the systematic segregation, in work, in schools, in housing, in social life, which ensured that there remained little or no contact between the Asian immigrants and the white people. Bolton and Manchester have managed with vastly more effect to foster and celebrate a diverse culture, even when the culture is not 'melting pot' but just two different religions, colours and traditions.
One of the good things about Oldham is that riots of 2001 made people in the town look at themselves and go fuck, this isn't us. Though some of the older residents might not have phrased it like that. I do have high hopes of some of the integration plans, and of the fact that the majority of local residents want things to change. The key differences I see between Oldham and the Balkans is that in Oldham there was a riot, or 'civil disbediance' as the Community Cohesion report likes to call it. As opposed to around a century of intermittant warfare. The other thing about Oldham is that what constitutes the authorities in that area; the Local Authority, the police, the colleges, the schools etc were actually shocked into reaction. As opposed to Serbia, were they were shocked into defeatism.
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It's nice to imagine that if all the right opportunities and chances were in place we could be looking forward to a bright new tomorrow of full employment, zero crime and afternoons in the rose garden discussing global politics and the opera.
quote:Originally posted by Louche: The intial work is about getting people off street corners/ out of the poverty trap.
Further projects and established services are about helping those who want to go further. Whilst I more than appreciate the point both you and Snorton made about working at WalMart hardly being a career, for some people it's what they want. Mothers with children appreciate the work, the hours, the sociability. Some men feel driving a fork lift truck and having cash at the end of the week for beer and a new shirt is an excellent state of affairs. Like I've reiterated all along, there needs to be a working class, though, of course, people with abilities and aspirations above WalMart shouldn't be so without opportunity that they can't move on.
I think getting people out of the poverty trap (or at least making thei lives less of a burden) is possible, but getting kids off street corners might prove more difficult. Many young people enjoy hanging around aimlessly on street corners or trapsing through shopping malls doing nothing. I see them around here in the leafy London suburbs, where there are plenty of facilities and far better things on offer.
Of course poverty is a motivating factor making some people what they are; it would be foolish to argue otherwise. However I think the biggest problem we are facing is the aggressive fuck-you attitude held by many young people, something that takes a range of different forms - from the consumption of "leisure drugs" and hanging around shopping centres through to joyriding and binge drinking. If may sound a bit Daily Mail golden-age sort of stuff, but teenagers from forty - even twenty - years ago were far less of a social problem than they generally are today. The irony is that your image of the working class father having enough money to have a beer and buy a new shirt and being happy with his lot fits into this. However this is not really the case today - give the same young father (and they are getting younger) a few quid and he'll be out with the rest of the lads pissing it up against the wall after getting blotto on cheap alcohol served up at Yates "wine bar" (sic).
The working class father from fifty years ago was proud of his achievements, no matter how little they were; he gave his kid a clip around the ear if they were rude to the old lady across the street, or if they were naughty at school. These days you'd just get daddy joining in with their ersatz-Burberry-clad offspring to give the teacher a clobbering.
There has been a complete breakdown in authority - the police now prefer (and find it far easier) to trap speeding drivers, schoolteachers accept being terrorised in the classroom as being "part of the job", and parents can find themselves being taken to court by their surly teenagers over the matter of not being allowed to go out at night to get pissed with their mates.
It's all well and good treating children like adults and offering them "rights", but somewhere along the line some of the bolts holding it all together have fallen out. When Tony Bluergh, in his comments on binge drinking and youth culture, rightly hit out at the 1960s consensus my first thought was "about bloody time" quickly followed by "it's probably too late now".
quote:Snorton, re the kids collected off the streets, in my experience, all it needs to get the majority of kids off the streets is a couple of good outreach workers offering something more exciting to do. The majority of 14 year old lads, whether on a council estate or in leafy cheshire, would rather be flying round the veoldrome, trying to break their necks on a skatepark or recording their own appalling rap than risking life and limb from gang warfare.
Fair enough. But what happens when the wrong sort all gang together and the inevitable ruckus occurs? Furthermore, I can't see young Muslim lads - the sort of which are driven by their religion - engaging in what my be preceived as "western" pursuits. They'd rather hang about with their own kind, which of course makes the white lads hang around with their own kind as well. Of course, being aware of these peoblems many local authorities have thought it a good idea for Muslims to have their own youth and community centres, thinking that this might alleviate the problems when it simply makes matters worse by polarising the community yet further.
quote:really don't know what can be done to 'sort' the Balkans. I've met enough younger people out there who are horrified and disgusted by what happened, who desperately want to change their country to think that it might be possible. But the government, corruption, bribes, scandals etc seem to counteract their every step. The solution is probably reform at every level, but that's going to be a painfully slow process and in the meantime poverty and old grudges will remain the order of the day. One of the problems remains the poor state of the infrastructure; so much money pays for replacing buildings and modernising roads and pipelines that there's little left over, especially after the government officials have taken their cut, for programmes which look at effective harmonisation.
I think we are agreed here.
quote:With Oldham the problem in essence wasn't the influx of the Bangladeshis and the Mipuris, it was the systematic segregation, in work, in schools, in housing, in social life, which ensured that there remained little or no contact between the Asian immigrants and the white people.
See comments above. It's not really a systematic segregation; it's something that has simply become so because we are talking about two communities with ideas and values that are completely different in a number of ways. It's not really an "Asian immigrant" thing - it's a Muslim thing. I don't see the same issues arising in areas where there are large numbers of Hindus, Buddhists or Sikhs.
Had we implemented some sort of assimilation policy way back when, I genuinely believe there would have been less of a problem today. Too many blind eyes have been turned towards this issue, and far too many people have simply sat back with the thought that everything would just straighten itself out of its own accord.
quote:Bolton and Manchester have managed with vastly more effect to foster and celebrate a diverse culture, even when the culture is not 'melting pot' but just two different religions, colours and traditions.
This sounds encouraging, but do you have an accurate population breakdown for both of these places? I have a mate from Bolton, and from what told me about the place most of the Asians there are Indian Hindus like him - who, unlike Muslims, have made far more of an effort to meld their culture with what is widely seen as the traditional British way of life. Leicester rightly holds itself up as a great example of multicultural Britain, but people don't stop to think that the vast majority of its Asian population is Hindu, a community where kids care more about their university careers than spreading the not-so-virtuous tenets of their religion. Funnily enough, the BNP doesn't seem to have much of a foothold in Leicester as it does in areas with large Muslim populations.
quote:One of the good things about Oldham is that riots of 2001 made people in the town look at themselves and go fuck, this isn't us. Though some of the older residents might not have phrased it like that.
I can't see those Muslim youths seen throwing molotov cocktails thinking like this, though.
quote:The other thing about Oldham is that what constitutes the authorities in that area; the Local Authority, the police, the colleges, the schools etc were actually shocked into reaction. As opposed to Serbia, were they were shocked into defeatism.
Being shocked into reaction is one thing; maintaining the head of steam is of a completely different order. It also requires all of the potential causes being targeted. In this respect I fear that the "reaction" may stop short of turning a clear unblinkered eye onto the cultural insularity and "community within a community" mentality of the Muslim population.
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Funnily enough, the BNP doesn't seem to have much of a foothold in Leicester as it does in areas with large Muslim populations.
lol. who here has been to leicester.
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quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Of course poverty is a motivating factor making some people what they are; it would be foolish to argue otherwise. However I think the biggest problem we are facing is the aggressive fuck-you attitude held by many young people, something that takes a range of different forms - from the consumption of "leisure drugs" and hanging around shopping centres through to joyriding and binge drinking.
I am unsure quite which is the best part of this post: 'young people' or 'leisure drugs'.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: The factual evidence you provide, Louche, is all very well but it simply does not accord with my opinions.
quote:Originally posted by Samuelnorton: Many young people enjoy hanging around aimlessly on street corners or trapsing through shopping malls doing nothing. I see them around here in the leafy London suburbs, where there are plenty of facilities and far better things on offer.
I spent a fair proportion of teenage Friday nights hanging around aimlessly, ignoring the local youth centre, doing nothing. Also meeting up with friends in shopping centres, and hanging around doing nothing. This was in white, leafy, middle-class Dorset. I would say that standing on street corners in groups "doing nothing" is a fairly integral part of growing up as a teenager in this country. There is a difference between just hanging out in groups and hanging out in groups vandalising bus stops and joy riding etc, but I think it's a real sign of old age to assume a group of young people congregating are automatically up to no good.
Ally, I think most of what you've said about people's attitude to pregnancy is spot on, however the argument that it's better not to have kids because men are inherently shit is a bit duff. You could just make sure of having kids with someone good?
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quote:Originally posted by discodamage: lol. who here has been to leicester.
The last time I visited Leicester was in 2002, but as personal observations don't count for much I did a bit of sniffing around the local election stats. Leicester City Council is composed of 22 wards - the BNP stood in only three of them in the last set of local elections in May 2003, and was convincingly trounced.
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quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poetess: I spent a fair proportion of teenage Friday nights hanging around aimlessly, ignoring the local youth centre, doing nothing. Also meeting up with friends in shopping centres, and hanging around doing nothing. This was in white, leafy, middle-class Dorset.
Where you happened to be - white, leafy, middle-class Dorset or multikulti, grimy, underclass Glodwick - isn't the issue here. Furthermore, your spending a "fair proportion of Friday nights" doing nothing cannot be compared with those ne'er do wells who spending every moment of their spare time malingering. In more cases than not, the devil makes work for idle thumbs.
quote:I would say that standing on street corners in groups "doing nothing" is a fairly integral part of growing up as a teenager in this country.
In response I would say that I find this rather sad.
quote:There is a difference between just hanging out in groups and hanging out in groups vandalising bus stops and joy riding etc..
Of course there is a difference. But in most cases a group of hoodie-clad youths hanging about a faceless street corner doing nothing exudes an air of malevolence. Maybe it's London, I don't know.
quote:I think it's a real sign of old age to assume a group of young people congregating are automatically up to no good.
Maybe. Perhaps it's one of the symptoms of being the other side of thirty.
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Louche
Carved TMO on her clit just to make you feel bad
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quote:There has been a complete breakdown in authority - the police now prefer (and find it far easier) to trap speeding drivers, schoolteachers accept being terrorised in the classroom as being "part of the job", and parents can find themselves being taken to court by their surly teenagers over the matter of not being allowed to go out at night to get pissed with their mates.
Lol! O Tempora, O Mores! etc. A complete breakdown of authority? You know, that’s what people have been worrying about with the ‘yoof generation’ for years. Sorry Snorton, but if you didn’t lift this from the Torygraph this morning I’d be very surprised. It’s just silly in it’s ooh, no, the nasty people are getting everything and the middle classes are getting victimised vibe. And I’ve had that discussion already.
The rest of your post can be summarised as follows: The Asians in Oldham are Muslim, they’ve segregated themselves and nothing anyone can do in the way of projects is going to help. Which I find unutterably depressing, defeatist and actually, rather unimaginative. Most of the Asians in Oldham are Muslim. In fact (Census 2004)* 72.6% is Christian and 11.1% is Muslim. The majority of people interviewed for the Ritchie Report and the Community Cohesion report don’t want segregation anymore. It’s making everyone miserable because it means the Asian families get abused by a minority of racist whites (and believe me, the majority of the white population in Oldham is loathing being tarred with the racism brush) and the white population don’t like it because they’ve seen themselves with the eyes of the country on them and the majority of them are squirming now. The white population don’t like being abused by a minority of racist Asians, either, unsurprisingly. Where there are integration policies – such as in the non-denominational sixth form and FE Colleges – they work. There are more integration policies being developed and huge regeneration and huge investment planned. There is a ‘community mindset’ to both the Asian and the white populations, but, increasingly, the young people of those communities are becoming more integrated and more open to interaction. Your whole post was utterly dismissive of the possibility of change. And, let’s face it, if everyone had that attitude, Oldham and other places would just be left to rot until they exploded or imploded. I think it’s a bloody good think that a number of people in the Borough – for myriad reasons – are not prepared to see that happen.
*The Greater Manchester breakdown is on my desk at the moment…
turbo
Gold..... What is it good for? You can't eat it, you can't smoke it, yet everybody wants it.
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How did we go from:
quote:jism is all about making babies.
to:
quote:There are more integration policies being developed and huge regeneration and huge investment planned.
?
On a serious note, in the Dutch city where I live, there is a huge Muslim (Turkish/Moroccan) community and a very large part of it chooses to be seperate from the Dutch. They want their own schools, they take over entire neighbourhoods, they don't make the effort to learn the language or allow their kids to learn Dutch. This makes me sad, especially because the Dutch have always prided themselves on their tolerance but it gets taken advantage of. Luckily now the powers that be are starting to realise that this can't carry on and they are introducing 'integration courses' for immigrants - they have to learn the language and learn about the history/culture of Holland. I'm not sure if this is working, but I think it is very important. I'm perfectly happy for foreign people to come and enjoy the same rights and privileges that I enjoy, but they must make an effort to integrate.
I wonder if the Muslim communities in this country are also sick of segregation or if hey quite like it and are prepared to continue their complete absence of integration. It is, of course, a sweeping generalisation but the few Turkish/Morroccan friends I have say that there are frightening numbers of people within their communities who basically want to replicate their country over here, which is a very unhealthy attitude. One of my friends moved over here when she was 2 and her family have been here for over 25 years now. He mother does not speak one word of Dutch and spoke only Turkish to the kids until they went to school (at which point they were way behind their peers). She says the D
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