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» TMO Talk » The Dead » The Evolution of Language. (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: The Evolution of Language.
MiscellaneousFiles

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How do you think language has changed over the years? Does the cross-pollination of different cultures lead to a weakened version of individual languages or do we benefit from words and phrases appropriated from other tongues?

Discuss.

-----------------------------------------

I don't know if many of you have had the misfortune of surfing around with your SkyDigital remote late of an evening. If you have, you may have come across a channel called Game Network. In the day it shows boring programs about video games, but at night it shows a rather sinister program which goes by the name of BabeStation.

You might have seen the dodgy chat-cam websites, where a scantily-clad girl appears on cam, next to a chat room interface. Customers can type messages to the girl (usually "get ur top of") and she can reply. She will provide a teasing glimpse of breast now and again to tempt customers to pay for a private session.

Well BabeStation is a digital TV equivalent. Three cameras are pointed at girls on the left of the screen whilst the right hand side is a garish chat-room. But notice these messages are not just chate - they are text messages! There is a number to text and your message will appear on the TV - to be read out by one of the girls.

Most stick to the standard nudity requests - always read out, but rarely actioned. Sometimes insults are hurled at the girls, who do their best to defend themselves and each other. Their reading level is almost as low as the spelling and grammar of the texters. They struggle to read anything with more than a syllable, bless 'em.

So here's my idea...

Either using your mobile or one of the free SMS services such as Lycos, we stage a TMO invasion of BabeStation. We shall treat it as our own, discussing the issues of the day, debating and generally trying to inject a little high-brow humour into what is basically the lowest of the low. Someone could record the hilarity which would undoubtedly ensue and post them as an mpeg.

It's on every night from 11PM on Game Network (Sky Channel 223). SMS to 85148...

So who's up for it? You've always wanted to be on telly.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: MiscellaneousFiles ]


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Keef
That, was liquid chate
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I actually think this is a good idea. We could ask for their views on various political topics and plead with them to keep their clothes on.

Unfortunately I don't have Sky Digital, Mrs Keef does, but then she doesn't have internet - catch 22, or something like that.


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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by Keef:
Unfortunately I don't have Sky Digital, Mrs Keef does, but then she doesn't have internet - catch 22, or something like that.

Does she have a mobile phone?

I'd just like to hear one of these dappy bints read something like this:

"SamuelNorton says:

'I am not masking anything. I have only stated that I am vehemently opposed to Islamic fundamentalism. If you don't reply to this, I'll just assume that you'll be hanging upside down by your scrotal sac.'

Whassat? Is he talkin' 'bout balls?


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Samuelnorton
"that nazi guy"
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lololol.

I would be tempted, but it would involve texting some faceless company who will charge you a quid per text, or something equally ridiculous.

Off topic, but closely related...

...has anyone tried watching the "Dating Channel" on Digital without ending up shielding your face in absolute terror?

There is also a scrolling "vidiprinter" stylee texting section at the bottom of the screen, where one can see the gormless fools say "how r u doin m8" or something equally inane at a quid a pop.

If it didn't cost so much, I'd probably bombard them with abusive texts. The morons.

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"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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Phill
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Sounds like a good idea.
Of course we will have to set the date and time to all text in. Any ideas what political questions you plan to ask them?

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vikram

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Remember when that Dentistry Channel was on? Lately I've found myself accidentally watching S4C - it's in Welsh! - and gobarkingmad, the greyhound racing channel.
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Samuelnorton
"that nazi guy"
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quote:
Originally posted by vikram:
Lately I've found myself accidentally watching S4C - it's in Welsh!

I actually watched this channel for ten minutes and was transfixed. By the throaty garble ridiculously dotted with English words.

Chagogogch llywd chackakackckckckc hachachach cup of tea llandudno caerdyddgogogoch. Bye.

Or something like that.

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"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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dang65
it's all the rage
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It does seem bizarre sometimes listening to someone speaking a foreign language when they suddenly use a really obvious English term like "blurdy flardy glurdy next-door-neighbour hurdy durdy". Why do they have no word for next-door-neighbour? But then I suppose if a French person who spoke no English at all heard the sentence, "I'm going round to Nigel's pied a terre this evening as he's making us a lovely quiche" they'd be going, "how come these rosbifs haven't got words for 'cramped bedsit' and 'vile cheesy pie thing'?"
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Bamba

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quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
I actually watched this channel for ten minutes and was transfixed. By the throaty garble ridiculously dotted with English words.

Chagogogch llywd chackakackckckckc hachachach cup of tea llandudno caerdyddgogogoch. Bye.

Or something like that.


This is exactly the same experience as watching programs in Gaelic, which BBC Scotland is forced to do a certain percentage of it's programs in.

"Mahoarsh mahoarsh dotaman albha uisge television coca-cola helicopter"

Personally I think that, if you have to include shitloads of foreign language words in your own language just so that you can have a normal conversation about modern life, it's time to just give up and admit that your language is pointless and shite.

[ 29 April 2003: Message edited by: Bamba ]


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Sidney
Her Glorious Reneging Brumness
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I once stayed at a hotel in Corfu which was visited every day by a man with a truck filled with fruit, which he sold to the hotel's guests. On the side of his truck he had painted, in huge block capitals; MY FRUIT IS BLOODY LOVELY

Just for the British guests, like.

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They give you a pen as fat as a modest cock and you're expected to dab it on the page, as though you were mopping the dregs of an afternoon Tommy.


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mart
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quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
Personally I think that, if you have to include shitloads of foreign language words in your own language just so that you can have a normal conversation about modern life, it's time to just give up and admit that your language is pointless and shite.

That's a little harsh. You'd be surprised how many languages adopt foreign terms for 'modern things'. English itself was 'guilty' of it for hundreds of years - at least half of its common words are from non-Anglo-Saxon stock (Dang's examples of straight lifts from French are indicative of English's tendency to borrow copiously). Other languages have done it too: in Armenian, apparently, only 23 per cent of the words are of native stock, and in Albanian the proportion is just 8 per cent. Japanese is said to have borrowed as many as 20,000 words from English (things like erebeta for elevator). So Welsh isn't so odd or 'crap' for using English words to express modern concepts, and in a way it's quite admirable that it simply allows the words to be used as is, without clumsy attempts to turn them into native versions.

And anyway it sounds funny, and that's got to be a bonus.


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Bamba

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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
That's a little harsh. You'd be surprised how many languages adopt foreign terms for 'modern things'. English itself was 'guilty' of it for hundreds of years - at least half of its common words are from non-Anglo-Saxon stock (Dang's examples of straight lifts from French are indicative of English's tendency to borrow copiously). Other languages have done it too: in Armenian, apparently, only 23 per cent of the words are of native stock, and in Albanian the proportion is just 8 per cent. Japanese is said to have borrowed as many as 20,000 words from English (things like erebeta for elevator). So Welsh isn't so odd or 'crap' for using English words to express modern concepts, and in a way it's quite admirable that it simply allows the words to be used as is, without clumsy attempts to turn them into native versions.

And anyway it sounds funny, and that's got to be a bonus.


C'mon dude, you must have known I was at least half-joking in that post. Mind you I was just waiting for someone to come along and say something similar. I would however draw a line between the English language's borrowing of terms and Gaelic's wholesale thievery. F'rinstance, Dang's example of 'quiche': quiche is an actual French food which we don't have a word for because the object itself is French and unique. Making up our own name for something which has already got a perfectly good name would be inuslting I feel. It would be like someone called 'Jacques' coming over here and us deciding to call him 'Fred' just for he sake of having Anglified it. However, things like television and helicopter aren't unique to any culture and the vast majority of laguages therefore have their own word for it. Nicking it straight from English and crowbarring it in an incredibly jarring fashion straight into your own language not only sounds stupid but is lazy and shows no effort whatsoever to keep up with the times. Other languages evolve and change through time (as you pointed out), what excuse have Welsh and Gaelic got?

Also, (and I'm a bit out of my depth here history-wise) wouldn't English's borrowing of words way back in the day again be because we were discovering foreign objects/conecpets which we knew nothing about so therefore had no way to discuss them without using their original names? Surely this defense again doesn't apply when we're talking about known universal concepts like the good old helicopter?

I'm aware that there's huge gaping holes in my logic and I'm prepared for someone to rip it to shreds if they can be arsed, but I'm sat here in the dark after having just watched Ring 2 so I'm not at my best.


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mart
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I was aware you were being only half serious; I just felt like posting some factoids. You're right about quiche, but there are literally hundreds of other words from French (and countless other languages) that have considerably enriched English, and provided us with all manner of synonyms, and probably the largest lexicon of any language in the world - we're a bit spoilt, in fact.

Consider the English word helicopter. Here are some other languages:

Danish: helikopter
Spanish: helicóptero
French: hélicoptère
Italian: elicottero
Portuguese: helicóptero

Unfortunately I can't find it in Welsh, despite owning a (small) Welsh-English dictionary, but I'll wager it's "helicopter". What's so 'bad' about using the word from the neighbouring, dominant language, rather than 'inventing' a word of their own? For example, the English words macho, liberal, and guerrilla are all borrowed straight from Spanish. Admittedly, English has the 'advantage' of being more flexible than, say, Welsh, and normally we can Anglicise borrowed words (shampoo from India, ketchup from China, potato from Haiti, sofa from Arabia, slogan from Gaelic, and so on and on and on), but that doesn't mean that Welsh is a 'poorer' language than any other. After all, educated people speak it as a native tongue and get along perfectly well, achieving as much communication (the purpose of language) as they would in English, so I really don't see the problem.

Hehehe, that said, I know what you mean though. Fucking stupid language that can't come up with its own bloody words...


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AgeingGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
Also, (and I'm a bit out of my depth here history-wise) wouldn't English's borrowing of words way back in the day again be because we were discovering foreign objects/conecpets which we knew nothing about so therefore had no way to discuss them without using their original names?

No, it's chiefly because we were serially colonised by foreign wallahs such as Saxons, Romans and French. Being the highly efficient toadies that we were, we replaced our good ole celtic/saxon words with ones from the dominant culture.

Which I suppose is pretty similar to the reasons why so many languages adopt English (American) words?

Excepting Germany, of course. In German they stick german words together to make a new one, such as "Fernsehen" for television (translates as "See Far"). I suppose it's linguistically pure, but it doesn't half make it difficult to understand!
Er- unless you're German, of course.

quote:
I'm sat here in the dark after having just watched Ring 2 so I'm not at my best.

Well, at least you're not pedantic.
[crawls shamefacedly back into dusty, book-filled pedant's cave]

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b-but what does it mean?


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mart
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quote:
Originally posted by AgeingGrace:
No, it's chiefly because we were serially colonised by foreign wallahs such as Saxons, Romans and French.

Akchooully, despite being here for 367 years, and apart from places names, the Romans left very little behind in terms of vocabulary. In other countries their occupation resulted in entirely new languages, but in Britain they left barely five words, apparently. The same goes for Celtic.

I say apparently because I'm getting this all from a book. I have no idea myself. We have lots of words from Latin, of course, but that's entirely different.


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AgeingGrace
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Oops, non-deliberate mistake made above. But I can't get back to edit it. Celtic/Gaelic/Britannic.


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b-but what does it mean?

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mart
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Akchooully, despite being here for 367 years...

Lol, it would seem you can take the boy out of Britain, but you can't take Britain out of the boy.


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Doctor Agamemnon When

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quote:
Originally posted by AgeingGrace:
"Fernsehen" for television (translates as "See Far"). I suppose it's linguistically pure, but it doesn't half make it difficult to understand!

Isn't that pretty much what "television" translates as? Tele = far, visio = sight?

Summat like that.

quote:
Mart:the Romans left very little behind in terms of vocabulary ... We have lots of words from Latin, of course, but that's entirely different.

I'm sure Stefanos will disagree in great detail.

Idle rambling: Most towns/cities that have a "chester" or "cester" (Cirencester, Manchester etc.) in them are of Roman origin - I think it's Latin for Fort. I'm sure our resident Ancient will tell me if I'm wrong.

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Not poems and rubbish - SCIENCE!
The Wonderful World of Dr. When


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mart
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You're right about the "-chester" thing (don't know if it means "fort" though). The thing about the Romans not having much linguistic influence is that, well, they didn't, did they. It's true that the Anglo-Saxons borrowed extensively from the Romans before they came to Britain (lots of mundane words for everyday items like pillow, street, wine, table, indicating, it would seem, the poverty of their own culture), but the fact seems to be that the Roman occupants had very little influence on the way Britons spoke, particularly if you consider that in other places like France, Spain and Portugal their presence led directly to the Romance languages we know today. This quite clearly didn't happen in Britain.

However, as you say, I'm sure Stefanos knows more about this. I'm playing a dangerous game of Vague Knowledge Death-Match here.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: mart ]


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ziggy
TMO Member
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You are all wrong.

quote:
Our public schools have turned away from the source of Truth, to teach our children that our sacred English language has descended from other languages. The poor impressionable youngsters are taught AS A FACT that English words have certain "root words", even though this is only a theory. The FACT is, God Almighty created all languages complete when he confused mankind's original language as punishment for our transgression at the tower of Babel. But the athiest/lingusts don't want this mentioned in public settings, because it goes against their FAITH, and forces them to face their own accountability. So they have BANNED the teaching of Babelism, because they are afraid that it might expose the weakness of their own linguistic ideas. Is this fair? I don't think so. It goes against all that America stands for.

Therefore, join me in the campaign to have a balanced and fair treatment in public education. All english teachers should be required to include Babelism as a valid alternate theory to Linguisticism, whenever the origins of the English language is discussed.


Source: Babelism

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..so long and thanks for all the fish...


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Bamba

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For someone so 'almighty', he didn't do a very good job of mixing it all up did he?

"Those ignorant human fuckers, I'm sick of them worshipping false gods and coveting each other's asses! I know what I'll do, I'll make them all talk different, that'll teach them! Look, in the future these guys over here on this small island will say "helicopter" when talking about those bladed flying machines and these other guys on this bigger island over here will say "helicóptero". Ha! They'll rue the day they ever fucked with me! Not so bloody clever now are we?!?"

That's just sheer laziness really. If I was in charge it'd be "helicopter"/"schrtyhgjkdu" or such like. This whole God carry on, piece of piss I tell ya.


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Samuelnorton
"that nazi guy"
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quote:
Originally posted by AgeingGrace:
Excepting Germany, of course. In German they stick german words together to make a new one, such as "Fernsehen" for television (translates as "See Far"). I suppose it's linguistically pure, but it doesn't half make it difficult to understand!
Er- unless you're German, of course.

Err, this is changing. Many German commercial channels - which means the majority of them - are starting to use the abbreviation "TV" - pronounced "teh-fau". Silly, when they have a perfectly good word in Fernsehen.

There is also "Wochenende" which has become "Weekend" and "Mannschaft", which has become "Team". Because it's "cool", or something. Christ, that's another one that has crept into the Lexikon.

Ugh.

--------------------
"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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nightowl
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quote:
Originally posted by Samuelnorton:
There is also "Wochenende" which has become "Weekend" and "Mannschaft", which has become "Team". Because it's "cool", or something. Christ, that's another one that has crept into the Lexikon.

The French language is also full of them, unfortunately. Few things are as cringeworthy as some French athlete talking about his forthcoming race being "un challenge" (instead of défi). "Le marketing" is another abomination. "Le weekend" I find acceptable though, as it just doesn't translate into French.

Amusingly enough, describing a black person by saying "il est black" is cooler than saying "il est noir"... God knows why.

quote:
mart:
Japanese is said to have borrowed as many as 20,000 words from English (things like erebeta for elevator).

I am puzzled as to why the Japanese for boyfriend is boyfriend though. Didn't the concept exist in Japan before they started learning English? Poor Japanese teenagers...

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The way I see it, God put me on earth to achieve a certain number of things. By now I'm so far behind, I'll never die.


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kovacs

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quote:
Originally posted by nightowl:
"Le weekend" I find acceptable though, as it just doesn't translate into French.

Then why does it translate into, for instance, German (as Wochenende)? What subtle meaning of "weekend" would "fin de semaine" fail to grasp?

I don't see that "weekend" is like Schadenfreude or l'esprit d'escalier, ie. a term whose elusiveness seems to have been pinned down elegantly by one language and whose precise meaning would need too many English words to convey ("pleasure in others' misfortune"/ "the sense of coming up with what you should have said after you've left the conversation".)

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member #28


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Bandy
Watchoo talkin' 'bout

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My all-time favourite anglo-germanism was included in an invite my company did to prospective clients:

"chillen Sie out mit ein grillparty"

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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by Bandy:
My all-time favourite anglo-germanism was included in an invite my company did to prospective clients:

"chillen Sie out mit ein grillparty"


"Ich chille gern out."

"Mein Hobbys sind Tennis spielen und outchillen."

Gotta love the krauts...


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Stefanos
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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
places like France, Spain and Portugal their presence led directly to the Romance languages we know today. This quite clearly didn't happen in Britain.

However, as you say, I'm sure Stefanos knows more about this. I'm playing a dangerous game of Vague Knowledge Death-Match here.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: mart ]


No - you are on the money here. The post-R***n era in Britain different from most of the rest of Europe. The Franks, Burgundians and some Saxons rolled into Gaul, replaced the ruling R***n classes, collected the taxes, took over the large estates and lost their Germanic identity because they integrated with the culture with little resistance. Gaul was conquered in about fifty years. Spain was similar - the Goths (another Germanic race) were also `Latinised' very rapidly.

In comparision, Britain saw its last battle between the original settlers and invading Germanic types 350 years after the end of R***n occupation. The resistance encountered by the invaders was so severe that there is evidence that migration back to the continent actually occurred (tentative evidence for the legendary battle of Badon and King Arthur).

Effectively this led to Germanic enclaves in Britain where next to no cultural mixing took place - the R****o-British culture was replaced wholesale, including the language.

As for R***n town names:
Lincoln...was Lindum.
Bath...(supposedly) was Badon.
Manchester...was Mancetter (a R***n fortress).
London...Londinium (of course)
just off the top of my head.

Latin didn't contribute much to British (i.e. Welsh) - although pont (bridge) and iluric (lorica - Latin for armour) are two of the better known ones.

Most of the Latin in modern English is derived from Norman French, not directly from the R***ns. If it wasn't for the Norman invasion by William the Bastard, we'd all be speaking something very similar to Scots English (which is much closer to Middle English than Standard English) and Dutch...

Mrs Stefanos will no doubt rip this to shreds if she ever reads this, being a Classics graduate.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: Stefanos ]

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Essex boy in exile.


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Astromariner
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quote:
Originally posted by kovacs:

l'esprit d'escalier... "the sense of coming up with what you should have said after you've left the conversation".)

Thank you. I've always wondered what that meant. My morning is complete.

I wonder when I can decently start dropping it into conversation? I'll have to work on my pronunciation first.


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kovacs

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Kovacs April 03 -- one post a week, but making it count.

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member #28

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Harlequin
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Language has changed in recent years too. For example stupid phrases such as "get a life" never used to be used ten years ago and use of the word "sad" to describe someone who does something others think is strange! In short modern culture is crap!
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Dr. Benway

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That made me want to do a little cry, Harly.

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I have shit on you, son


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Lyra
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quote:
Nightowl:
The French language is also full of them, unfortunately. Few things are as cringeworthy as some French athlete talking about his forthcoming race being "un challenge" (instead of défi). "Le marketing" is another abomination. "Le weekend" I find acceptable though, as it just doesn't translate into French.

The French language is fabulous not just because it sounds so pretty but because it changes and adapts so much... the whole point of a 'modern language' is that it's 'alive' as opposed to 'dead' and like a living thing, it changes, grows and develops. This is what makes it interesting. And probably the main reason I found latin so dull.

quote:
Amusingly enough, describing a black person by saying "il est black" is cooler than saying "il est noir"... God knows why.

It's now "renoir". Get with the programme, chérie.


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Vogon Poetess

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Is it true that "computer" is "ordinateur" in French because "pute" is slang for arse? Most other languages just say "computer" in a funny accent.

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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Stefanos
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quote:
Originally posted by Harlequin:
Language has changed in recent years too. For example stupid phrases such as "get a life" never used to be used ten years ago and use of the word "sad" to describe someone who does something others think is strange! In short modern culture is crap!

Harly, it has always been like that. Even Latin had slang and fashions...you get late R***n writers saying that no one speaks proper Latin like they did in the days of Cicero...

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Essex boy in exile.


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Lyra
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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Is it true that "computer" is "ordinateur" in French because "pute" is slang for arse? Most other languages just say "computer" in a funny accent.

Pute = whore
cul = ass

dunno if that's the reasoning tho...

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: Lyra ]


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