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» TMO Talk » The Dead » The Evolution of Language. (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: The Evolution of Language.
mart
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Benway:
Very interesting stuff

So, just let me get this clear. I know Misc has already said it is so, as has Stefanos, but I'll ask again: is "ass" creeping into the speech patterns of young people in the UK? Isolated as I am from interacting with UK speakers of English, I have no idea whether this is so or not. I'm not doubting Misc and Stef, I'd just like some more opinions, maybe from around the country, from different social settings, etc. I find it most interesting.

Also, what's all this about "murder"? I'm lost there.


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Stefanos
Biggus Dickus
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quote:
Originally posted by herbs:
But you wouldn't go to a Glasgow party and say: 'Murrrderrr. Ha ha ha! Have you heard the way you talk? You sound lika fuckwit'. Whereas bleedin' northerners and the like feel free to do this darn sarth. As if we were free game.

Exactly. Personally I love hearing different accents. Even as someone with an Estuary English accent, I am horrified by signs that it is spreading across the country....

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Essex boy in exile.


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Dr. Benway

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I reckon it is. I think it has to, seeing as (nearly) all of our pop culture is modelled on that of our American cousins. Seeing as the English have always prided themselves on having so many goddamn words from all the invasions, I don't see why we should get too concerned.

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I have shit on you, son

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mart
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I'm not concerned, I'm interested.
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Dr. Benway

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hey mart, what's that behind you?


*THONK!*


It's not like I'm saying 'ass' 24 hours a day, but I do use it more than "arse". I'd only use the word "arse" in the context of "I can't be arsed", although granted, I do say that quite a lot. Personally, nothing gives me greater pleasure than creating nonsense words, by taking words like "****", "fuck", "cock", or "tit", and then bolting them onto words like "rag", "stick", or "sniffer". Every now and again it's possible to happen across a real winner.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: Dr. Benway ]

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I have shit on you, son


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Bandy
Watchoo talkin' 'bout

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quote:
Originally posted by mart:
Also, what's all this about "murder"? I'm lost there.

I think it stems from Jimmy Corkhill's famous line in Brookside: Mehhrdehr? Ah nevehhhr!

Scrawny likes to pretend she's a scouser and, hence, feign annoyance at the use of the above phrase.

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Shameless Promotion: huddle - online project and document collaboration


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Pink
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Beware calling people born in Birkenhead scouse bad things can happen...

kisses

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...and so say we all.


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Vogon Poetess

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Thorn uses "ass" quite a lot, possibly because he knows it annoys me. You just can't shout it with the same level of confused venom as Father Jack.

Another one that Thorn uses too much is "panties". I fucking hate this word, it sounds so coy and babyish. "Knickers" and "pants" are so much more strident and effective.

Edit to add about bath/barth; being born and brought up on the south coast with parents from the Midlands doesn't help much.

[ 30 April 2003: Message edited by: Vogon Poetess ]

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.


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Bamba

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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Another one that Thorn uses too much is "panties".

Inexplicably, this totally does my head in. It makes me think of bad American porn for some reason.

Sorry, as you were.


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Bandy
Watchoo talkin' 'bout

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quote:
Originally posted by Pink:
Beware calling people born in Birkenhead scouse bad things can happen...

kisses


What, like Murder? Guffaw.

Ahem. On consideration I probably should have written 'Plastic Scouser'.

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Shameless Promotion: huddle - online project and document collaboration


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MiscellaneousFiles

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quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
Inexplicably, this totally does my head in. It makes me think of bad American porn for some reason..

Pronounced "pannies", obviously...


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jnhoj
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i cant use ass or arse without feeling like im saying something wrong, i usually settle on bottom.

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www.storytimewithjohn.blogspot.comwww.gingercomics.com

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herbs

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Ooohhh, I thought 'murder' was a reference to the way said misdemeanour was pronounced in Taggart - Thurrrr's bin a Murrrrrrrrrrdurrrrrrrrrr.

I too thought Scrawny was medium-posh southern. Though I suppose I've mainly conversed pissed over 120dB pub music.


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Vogon Poetess

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Out of interest, where do I register on your poshometer, Herbs?

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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Keef
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandy:
I think it stems from Jimmy Corkhill's famous line in Brookside: Mehhrdehr? Ah nevehhhr!

I was thinking more along the lines of Taggart. But fair point, nonetheless.


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herbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Vogon Poetess:
Out of interest, where do I register on your poshometer, Herbs?

Pretty high - somewhere in between Zoe Ball and Victoria Hervey.


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Teflon
Insanity runs in my family.
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quote:
Originally posted by herbs:
Pretty high - somewhere in between Zoe Ball and Victoria Hervey.

it's yer posh name wot done it....

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got all the midget jobs Kenny Baker passed up


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vikram

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Victoria Hervey is trash
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Vogon Poetess

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Zoe Ball's pretty rough too. That must make me reasonably cool then.

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What I object to is the colour of some of these wheelie bins and where they are left, in some areas outside all week in the front garden.

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Samuelnorton
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This thread has certainly become rather interesting. We should all thank Vikram for mentioning S4C, which in turn encouraged me to blurt out a line of mock Welsh and send us all down this funny path of arses, baths and grasses.

Let there be no doubt:

Arse is pronounced "Arrrse". The longer the "r" sound, the better. Especially when you are talking down to the imbecile who has just forgotten to give you your fries with your burger. (Don't do this if you are waiting for your burger though, as they'll more than likely ask their spotty mate around the back to spit in it).

Grass is pronounced "Grarrrse". And bath is pronounced "Barrrth". Those who shorten these words should be made to chew on a twig.

End. Of.

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As for the modern education system, it's a load of, yes, arse. It doesn't help matters when the only voices you tend to hear on the Fernsehen these days are northerners. And when you see a sign saying something along the lines of Video's for sale. Like what has Video got for sale? At least they can bloody well tell us, eh?

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I also hate the word "panties". I endured an episode of Columbo once where the clue lay in the putting on of the "panties" ('tis true, I kid you not) and it made me cringe.

Ugh!

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"You ate the baby Jesus and his mother Mary!"
"I thought they were animal cookies..."


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herbs

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Zoe Ball? Rough? She's the daughter of the lovely Johnny, and as such is of noble stock. Any roughness is a put on.
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kovacs

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yesterday me on da train hearin a voice behind me "get out me face blood or i fuckin slap you up, raas"...me turn around. it a likkle white bwoy wiv a baseball cap on, na moore than 14 year old, chaaaaaa

that is all me got to say at present, seen

me gettin drunk now

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member #28


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Londie
Why do I have a tag when nobody else does?
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When you say 'ass' you have to make it sound stilted, as though your tongue is inscribing those air quote marks around the word. Because your mouth knows that the word is an Americanism that does not sit comfortably on our native tongue, yet finds itself inexorably drawn towards the use of the word nonetheless. 'My 'ass' sure looks peachy in these vintage Farahs, huh?' Irony infuses the word. Why say 'ass'? Because 'arse', these days, somehow seems too knowingly demotic, suddenly sounds too Dartington farmer-boy, for us nice middle-class white girls. I blame Bridget Jones, personally. But then I blame her for most things, apart from my broken toe, which I blame, in its entirety, on Mark Otto Pilkington. That bastard.
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mart
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I can't imagine Bridget Jones saying ass; she strikes me as much more of a bum woman.

Yes. Bridget Jones: bumgirl.


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Londie
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Yes: she'd say 'bum' or 'arse'. Hence: 'ass'.
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Modge
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Firstly, I'm sorry to be coming to this thread 7 pages in, I've just read it all and kept thinking of replies along the way. Too late now!

But...

quote:
Originally posted by Bamba:
This is exactly the same experience as watching programs in Gaelic, which BBC Scotland is forced to do a certain percentage of it's programs in.

"Mahoarsh mahoarsh dotaman albha uisge television coca-cola helicopter"

Personally I think that, if you have to include shitloads of foreign language words in your own language just so that you can have a normal conversation about modern life, it's time to just give up and admit that your language is pointless and shite.

[ 29 April 2003: Message edited by: Bamba ]


1. the gaelic word for television is telebhisean which might seem like a poor man's attempt at a translation, but at least it fits with the rules of grammar and spelling.

The problem with a language like gaelic is two-fold. Firstly, it is traditionally an aural language, and it is only relatively recently that attempts have been made to forumulate written rules. This has been exacerbated by the number of dialects that exist, despite the relatively small number of speakers. So, there are differences in opinion regarding the spelling/pronounciation of some words and phrases. The second difficulty is that, given the traditional speakers of the language - older people living in the north and west of Scotland, Gaelic has not evolved in terms of "modern life" (although there is a word for the internet - eadar-lìon - literally "between-net") and so you get things like telebhisean which sounds almost the same as the English word.

However, there is a value in the language. Although the last census showed a decline in the number of Gaelic speakers, it failed to take into account the numbers of new learners (including myself, in case you didnt see where this impassioned post came from!) For example, there is a primary school in Glasgow whose first language is Gaelic. The children learn English as a second language from the age of 7/8 (and have shown to have language skills on par with their English education peers in other schools.) The vast majority of these children come from monolingual English households, and with an intake of 200+ pupils, that is a lot of extra speakers!

I think part of the point/problem with Gaelic is making it useful in an everyday context. How/whether this will happen, I don't know.


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Bamba

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[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: Bamba ]


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AgeingGrace
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This has been a gloriously rambling debate on one of my favourite subjects!

Quick divert to "Prop" Misc for turning a gradual hijack into a whole new thread.
<Going gushy: must calm down & drink cocoa>

There's no chance whatsoever of my having time to join in tomorrow's continuation [did you notice my perfect grammar? Did you?? I did it especially for you!] so I thought I'd chuck in a few sequiturs, just in case anyone should feel like following them up.sequiturs: notice? Only five latin words? Was that on your list, eh? .. OK, I could have said a few points - but it doesn't mean the same thing, exactly.[pedant] [/pedant]

In our (UK) Bronze Age, the people of England spoke an indo-european language. This indicates that we were already heavily involved in trade with cultures that originated from -er, Iraq, or thereabouts, and were already such a "nation of shopkeepers" that we had established close relations with overseas trading partners, and that we had readily adapted our culture to assimilate our more advanced partners.

During subsequent, more violent invasions, the Brits seem to have stuck with their pragmatic policy of adapting to what was necessary - and adopting what would be fruitful. Our word "salary" comes from the Romans' habit of paying soldiers in salt. [pah!]Five words[/pah!]
The language of Chaucer was a fabulous mixture of ancient english, Gaelic, Latin, German and French. Yet it was written during one of the few periods in this island's history that was not enormously influenced by another culture.

My home country (the west Midlands) is one of the oldest documented areas of Britain, yet, even by the time the Domesday Book was written, the place names had already been bastardised from their Viking origins ("Wodensboro" to Wednesbury; "Wolf hamlet" to Wolverhampton and so on).

Our language is - so far - one of the most vibrant, flexible, expressive communication systems in the world. Anyone who's taught English will have easily concluded that, whatever it lacks in certain areas - compared to many Asian languages, for example, it lacks spiritual expression; compared to Latin languages it lacks words for complex emotion - English is supremely flexible. We readily build words like "karma" and "weltschmerz" into our vocabulary. OK, they're not English words. But you wouldn't think worse of me for using them, would you?

I think 'American' english is taking over the world - as an international language. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing: it's not a million miles from the "International English" that was proposed when esperanto failed to take off, in that it has simple structures and a small vocabulary. It's not going to become the world language .... but it may well become the world's common language.
Why not? How long have we been needing a common language?

Blimey. Can't believe I've been ranting for so long (wrong board! sorry.)
Please pick up ... if enthused.

I'll be looking forward to catching up tomorrow night.

Cheers, and thanks for keeping this interested .... so very late!

[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: AgeingGrace ]

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b-but what does it mean?


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mart
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[rather strong martini]AgeingGrace, I think I love you.[/really very strong martini]
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Raz
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What Grace says is verr good.

Can I just thank you people for finally putting up a thread that has both entertained and educated me for the first time in about 2 years. Cheerz dudZ.


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Gail
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Excuse me if this has been said before, I only just started reading this thread, and backwards at that. Nevermind, I post invisible anyway.

Swearing is s'posed to be offensive, right? At least some of the time, like when you're shouting at the idiot who just drove past you unnecessarily fast and splashed you head to toe in manky puddle (even tho he can't hear you).

Right. Try saying (v loud) "You fucking bastard!!!!" with long vowels. Now try it with short vowels. Are you with me? Try "You bloody ****!" Try some of your favourite phrases for to assault the ears of uncoscionable gits. Try it on your friends if you don't believe me.

Northern vowels make for more offensive swearing don't they? Swearing, as offensivly as possible, is good, right? Therefore northern vowels are best. Fact.

[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: Gail ]


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AgeingGrace
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aarghh! Deleted due to editing error.

[ 01 May 2003: Message edited by: AgeingGrace ]

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b-but what does it mean?


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mart
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quote:
Originally posted by AgeingGrace:
Our word "salary" comes from the Romans' habit of paying soldiers in salt.

Almost, but not quite. The word salary comes from the Roman soldiers' ironic term for what their wages would buy them (i.e. nothing but salt). And I think it came to us through Latin, not through the actual presence of Romans in Britain, so the "five words" thing that I read about may still stand. So, er, there.


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Raz
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Mar-tang spek late-nite wizdom.
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mart
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Hello Raz. Y'alright?
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